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muckswirler posted:why would you recycle li-poly batteries though? they're pretty low environmental impact and the materials are super abundant unless they're using vanadium or some exotic cocktail for some reason. cobalt reclamation is the big one I think. they're like 2% lithium by mass so that's pretty much a fart in the wind unless its trivial to reclaim that as well as part of some other process
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Sep 14, 2018 15:37
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wolrah posted:That's because the gas engines used in most hybrids are significantly different from those used in pure ICE vehicles. They're optimized for cruise efficiency while sacrificing off the line power because the EV part can make up for that. AFAIK the closest we've seen to a direct comparison would be the GM hybrid truck/SUV offerings which used the standard Vortec 5300 V8, but their EV part was pretty lovely. I know all that, and its the point I was trying to get at. Combat Theory was saying that the shittiest possible hybrid Implimentation that does almost nothing to play to an electric powertrain's strengths is not better than an ICE at highway. No loving poo poo. The whole point of hybrids is that you can use a smaller Atkinson cycle engine that is stupid efficient and let the batteries and electric motor torque act as the buffer for short power demands.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:41
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:I know all that, and its the point I was trying to get at. Combat Theory was saying that the shittiest possible hybrid Implimentation that does almost nothing to play to an electric powertrain's strengths is not better than an ICE at highway. No loving poo poo. The whole point of hybrids is that you can use a smaller Atkinson cycle engine that is stupid efficient and let the batteries and electric motor torque act as the buffer for short power demands. That's what the trend is at the moment, use the electrics for on demand power, then use a tiny gas engine for cruising when you only need what, 30-40 HP. With cars getting more aerodynamic, the amount of power needed is going to drop as well. Basically, a small, turbo 1L 3 cylinder Atkinson cycle engine paired with a 50 HP electric motor would be enough to get you around town and on the freeway. Because you have the electric motor, which would also function as the starter, you can shut the gas engine off at stop lights and not worry about trashing your starter down the line.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:50
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iospace posted:That's what the trend is at the moment, use the electrics for on demand power, then use a tiny gas engine for cruising when you only need what, 30-40 HP. With cars getting more aerodynamic, the amount of power needed is going to drop as well. i was always worried about the constant start-stop cycles being bad on engine wear from lack of oil pressure while starting. i take it they fixed that issue somehow?
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Sep 14, 2018 15:56
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Lonoxmont posted:i was always worried about the constant start-stop cycles being bad on engine wear from lack of oil pressure while starting. i take it they fixed that issue somehow? don't they have electric oil pumps? i know the prius (at least used to) have this thermos it pumps the oil into after you shut it off to keep it warm, i'm guessing they didn't add a completely separate oil pump just for that but lol
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Sep 14, 2018 16:04
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Lonoxmont posted:i was always worried about the constant start-stop cycles being bad on engine wear from lack of oil pressure while starting. i take it they fixed that issue somehow? some have an electric oil pump, some use the electric motor to turn engine before ignition to reoil, other misc engineering to address
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Sep 14, 2018 16:06
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Why don't they have stations where standardized battery packs get pulled in and out of trucks by machine, dropped off, charged, and picked up rather than making truckers wait to charge up Because that would be a massively expensive and complicated process which also requires a lot of large dangerous equipment. Also since the nature of large road battery packs is to be integral to the base chassis and otherwise as low as possible, what you'd really need is to remove the whole vehicle and swap it onto a different base, reconnecting all neccesary lines Soricidus posted:. you’re comparing that to petrol where you maybe stop for a 30 minute refreshment break every 200 miles. See a doctor about your disastrous bowel situation and/or needlessly overcrowded and slow roadside fast food which may be causing the first.
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Sep 14, 2018 16:21
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Re CVTs doing super inefficient poo poo to feel "good and fun", Tesla off the line performance is just that to the nth degree
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Sep 14, 2018 16:30
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aren't CVTs more efficient though?
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Sep 14, 2018 16:35
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They are unless you set them up to deliberately do inefficient poo poo to mimic the feeling of shifting with a conventional transmission. That was literally the entire point of the discussion about CVTs.
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Sep 14, 2018 16:36
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hailthefish posted:They are unless you set them up to deliberately do inefficient poo poo to mimic the feeling of shifting with a conventional transmission. oh, god. that's so dumb. "MUH SHIFT POINTS!  "
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Sep 14, 2018 16:39
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men are so fragile that cars targeting them play fake engine sounds through the speakers
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Sep 14, 2018 16:45
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Lonoxmont posted:i was always worried about the constant start-stop cycles being bad on engine wear from lack of oil pressure while starting. i take it they fixed that issue somehow? in addition to all the electric accessories previously mentioned, the engine being cranked by a 35hp starter motor gets it up to operating speed real quick too
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Sep 14, 2018 17:16
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HAIL eSATA-n posted:men are so fragile that cars targeting them play fake engine sounds through the speakers yeah but can you blame people growing up in a consumerist culture where corporations have invested in tying a sense of masculinity to cars 
prisoner of waffles fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 17:23
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YOSPOS: lol elon thinks he knows better than people who work in the car industry and endlessly bickers with them, that's a bad idea and part of why his business is failing YOSPOS: think they know better than people who work in the car industry and endlessly bickers with them
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Sep 14, 2018 17:26
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:YOSPOS: lol elon thinks he knows better than people who work in the car industry and endlessly bickers with them, that's a bad idea and part of why his business is failing we're not monstrously rich off the backs of slave labor and financial schemes so it's okay
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Sep 14, 2018 17:28
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:YOSPOS: lol elon thinks he knows better than people who work in the car industry and endlessly bickers with them, that's a bad idea and part of why his business is failing good thing no one in yospos runs a car company
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Sep 14, 2018 17:28
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:
that guy works in the fossil fuel industry, not the car industry you rube. no poo poo he wants to convince you evs can't compete with guzzoline
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Sep 14, 2018 17:29
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oh, whoops. disregard my joke, then. the "look at us doing the same stuff we make fun of others for doing" line still stands tho, YOSPOS is full of it
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Sep 14, 2018 17:36
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:oh, whoops. disregard my joke, then. then maybe your best course is to leave
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Sep 14, 2018 17:42
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Last Chance posted:then maybe your best course is to leave nah, i like it here thanks
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Sep 14, 2018 17:44
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ChickenOfTomorrow posted:YOSPOS: lol elon thinks he knows better than people who work in the car industry and endlessly bickers with them, that's a bad idea and part of why his business is failing
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Sep 14, 2018 17:45
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im skipping a lot of posts but I also work in the auto industry and basically everything that Combat Theory is saying is correct or at least how the current technology is going to go without some major battery technology breakthroughs. Then there is the added issue of dipshit urban Americans who insist on driving trucks and other large cars around tiny urban streets + rich people commuting from the suburbs in their high performance luxury vehicles in Europe this will probably be less of a problem but there are outliers in places like Scandinavia where there are relatively large and urban cities that are 1000km from the next largest city (Tromsø comes to mind) and as CT said, having two cars in Europe isn't economical due to taxes Maybe automotive companies will realize that mass transit is the only true solution 
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Sep 14, 2018 17:47
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FAT32 SHAMER posted:im skipping a lot of posts but I also work in the auto industry and basically everything that Combat Theory is saying is correct or at least how the current technology is going to go without some major battery technology breakthroughs. Then there is the added issue of dipshit urban Americans who insist on driving trucks and other large cars around tiny urban streets + rich people commuting from the suburbs in their high performance luxury vehicles stealing hood ornaments with a pair of snips isn't "working in the auto industry".
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Sep 14, 2018 17:49
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https://twitter.com/ryanfelton/status/1040356946140979201 https://twitter.com/ryanfelton/status/1040357237364015111 https://twitter.com/ryanfelton/status/1040357550296846336  
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Sep 14, 2018 17:51
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Peeny Cheez posted:Nah, I'm just here for the wildly inconsistent South African accents. And to imply that Elon Musk is a car-fucker. grahms mah deek ees caght in thee taelpahpe
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Sep 14, 2018 17:51
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President Beep posted:stealing hood ornaments with a pair of snips isn't "working in the auto industry".
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Sep 14, 2018 17:51
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iospace posted:So how did tesla even get involved with I loving love science? I stopped following that place after it devolved into clickbait. pls see the venn diagram of these and the oatmeal efb
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Sep 14, 2018 17:53
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Peeny Cheez posted:Well, my industry involves working in autos. Does that count? lewd
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Sep 14, 2018 17:53
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Captain Foo posted:grahms mah deek ees caght in thee taelpahpe it's an EV, there's no tailpipe he's gotta gently caress the panel gaps
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Sep 14, 2018 17:54
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what ever happened to that battery tech that was getting hyped that was carbon based and possibly something to do with buckyballs?
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Sep 14, 2018 17:55
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was it in popular science?
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Sep 14, 2018 17:56
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Peeny Cheez posted:Well, my industry involves working in autos. Does that count? Captain Foo posted:grahms mah deek ees caght in thee taelpahpe
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Sep 14, 2018 17:57
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infernal machines posted:was it in popular science? gently caress
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Sep 14, 2018 17:58
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FrozenVent posted:you ever hear of wannacry? it was NotPetya
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Sep 14, 2018 17:58
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FAT32 SHAMER posted:what ever happened to that battery tech that was getting hyped that was carbon based and possibly something to do with buckyballs? it exists only on magazine covers every 5 years
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Sep 14, 2018 17:59
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Captain Foo posted:grahms mah deek ees caght in thee taelpahpe he likes to gently caress ice cars because shame is a component of his kink
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Sep 14, 2018 18:01
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:stop backpedalling dipshit i am quite sorry if my words offended you, i only get paid to design automotive powertrains, not to sell them to the public. Twerk from Home posted:Are you talking about small passenger cars, or OTR trucking? Diesel passenger cars are a loving footnote in the USA, I guarantee there's more hybrids than diesels among small passenger vehicles. i am quite in picture how truck powetrains work and yet the argument holds in both cases. adding a gearbox or a compound charger (which doesnt do much on a Turbo engine with non stochiometric combustion) does not alter the general question of hybridisation for the powetrain. Here is the main consideration that makes hybrids a no go for extended highway use. an IC powertrain or hybrid that is not a plug in has to extract all its energy from the actual fuel and will ideally do so in the most economic manner possibe, aka the most efficient one. For internal Combustion engines, the most efficient energy extraction happens at the point of lowest specific fuel consumption (lowest g/kWh) which, in the main engine map, has an RPM and a mean effective pressure coordinate. for Petrol engines, this will be somewhere around 50% RPM and 80% Engine load (or 80% of the maximum MEP at the given RPM) for Diesel engines or fuel stratisfied Engine it will be closer towards 60% Engine Load. The average travelling speed in the EU for a strict highway drive is around 100km/h and the maximul allowed velocity between 120 and 130 km/h (or in the case of germany, 130 km/h guidance speed) any modern petrol engine with at least 5 gears will run close to the RPM coordinate of the maximum efficency at those mean and maximum highway speed by design. The only option to increase the Engine efficiency would be to increase the engine load, since coasting at constant velocity only takes a fraction of the load that would be required to run the engine at the most efficient MEP. Running a hybrid on the highway without a driver that drives like a 5 year old (i.e constantly accelerating and braking which is a very inefficient travel style in general) only allows for one logical mode of operation, which is Power Point Shifting. This means that the electric drivetrain will run in generator mode to charge the battery while increasing the vehicles efficiency by shifting the MEP closer to its optimum. The efficiency that you gain between coasting efficiency and peak engine efficiency has to be large enough to compensate for the entire efficiency loss in your electric drivetrain in 2 ways, that means you have to gain enough efficiency to overcome generator losses, Rectifier losses, Battery charge losses, Battery discharge losses, inverter losses and electric motor losses. The average gains for Power Point shifting are about 15-20 percent of relative efficiency and only on low highway speeds. The average losses in an electric drivetrain are between 20-35 percent. It does not take a math genius to see why this idea was discarded over 10 years ago and why long range vehicles are almost never hybridised. Atkinson and Miller Gas Cycles are in no way limited to Hybrid IC designs. If you drive a BMW that is never than 2005, chances are you have a valvetronic head and your engine runs a heavy Miller Cycle, which is like a mirrored Atkinson and does pretty much the same for practical engine efficiency. If you have any Japanese car with variable valve timing and lift, it will be the same. The reason Toyota used Atkinson instead of a Miller Process was mostly for patent reason if i remember correctly. The thing is that both Atkinson and Miller decrease Volumetric efficiency so it does not make sense to run either one at high engine Loads, which is where the actual peak efficiency of the Engine happens. Running a high power atkinson cycle means you have to build a bigger engine than a classic design to produce the same peak performance. the added mechanical losses will eat up your efficiency gains by the atkinson cycle, which also lower when running the engine at higher load since what you gain is mostly a compensation for negative pressure slope charging during the intake stroke. E: and before anyone gets a heart attack yes i know atkinsons cycle war originally designed to harvest the energy that is usually puffed out as primary exhaust , but that only works in a theoretical perfect world and in fancy idealised diagrams. if you look at the actual pressure and volume curve of a real engine, youll quickly find the the added benefits of miller and atkinson cycles are the reduction of negative pressure slope losses during the intake President Beep posted:aren't CVTs more efficient though? CVTs have a bad mechanical efficiency. In a manual powertrain you lose no Power in the clutch, you lose about 1-2% per gear pair (so 2-4% in a 3 shaft transmission, 1-2% in a 2 shaft transmission and theoretically none in a 3 shaft transmission in direct gear). Plus a few % for bearings and seals. For the classic Manual you can safely attest 95% efficiency a classic automatic transmission without an override clutch for the torque converter will usually sit at 91%. with an override clutch you can improve that close to manual efficiency. CVT transmissions have significantly higher losses in the primary torque path and will yield, depending on design, about 86 % efficiency. due to the Improvements in gear count for automatic transmissions, the benefits of having infintely adjustable transmission ratios becomes unimportant compared to the overall loss in efficiency when using a CVT. There was a brief period however when CVTs and classic automatics competed in the premium sector. Also some Japanese Manufacturers keep them for prestige and heritage reasons. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 18:02
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:he likes to gently caress ice cars because shame is a component of his kink you mean beyond the part where he's loving a car?
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Sep 14, 2018 18:02
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FAT32 SHAMER posted:im skipping a lot of posts but I also work in the auto industry and basically everything that Combat Theory is saying is correct or at least how the current technology is going to go without some major battery technology breakthroughs. Then there is the added issue of dipshit urban Americans who insist on driving trucks and other large cars around tiny urban streets + rich people commuting from the suburbs in their high performance luxury vehicles hot take: you can take ludicrously oversized junkheaps like a "luxury" pickup or suv, pack the fool thing absolutely full of batteries to manage range, and the driver will never ever notice the vehicle can't tow or haul much of any load besides the passengers and some luggage, because they've never used that truck bed/trailer hitch/etc in their lives.
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Sep 14, 2018 18:04
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