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Jesus is colourblin
Apr 13, 2008

Being colourblind ain't easy :(
I feel an obvious explanation for his lack of sacrifices is that he wants to stay hidden from Mt. Har. At their core, sacrifices is pretty much wying for El's attention, right? Maybe Ishamal doesn't want El's attention.

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Cannon_Fodder
Jul 17, 2007

"Hey, where did Steve go?"
Design by Kamoc

Jesus is colourblin posted:

I feel an obvious explanation for his lack of sacrifices is that he wants to stay hidden from Mt. Har. At their core, sacrifices is pretty much wying for El's attention, right? Maybe Ishamal doesn't want El's attention.

OR people know he's blooded as poo poo, Tudiya's trusted friend/consult, and a foreigner and he's not trying to influence religious practice in Zepath by being so overly zealous about sacrifices. :iiam:

Task Manager
Sep 5, 2008

A weird time in which we are alive. We can travel anywhere we want, even to other planets. And for what? To sit day after day, declining in morale and hope.
Part of me thinks it has to do with staying in hiding from enemy forces. Seems lighting an altar and sacrificing to El draws attention to the person doing so - a torch in the night as it were. Enkidel got that fever dream down south that plunking an altar down on enemy territory would wake First and then Gebek as a result, so altar sacrifices do appear to grab the attention of powerful beings. Ishamal has also strongly advised us that we are pretty much at the point that going into enemy lands at all now will invite constant attacks on us.

If this was the sole reason (Ishamal doesn't sacrifice because he doesn't want enemies to notice him), I still don't know why he wouldn't feel safe to do so on Zepathan lands. Would enemies attack Zepath en masse if it meant killing Ishamal? Doesn't the enemy already know where he is, given his Presence is massive?

Part of me just wants to ask Tudiya when we get back if he knows why Ishamal never sacrifices anything to El, but if Tudiya isn't aware of the reason it's just going to make him question and doubt the man who forever has been Zepath's consigliere.

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Have we ever asked Ishamal for his version of the creation story? I know we have the real one in the first post that goes weird once nephilim are created and the world breaks, the orthodox one, and the one Tudiya told us which was close to the orthodox but a little different iirc? (I think I brought this up before and was wrong but I honestly cant remember). If we haven't I feel like this might be a sandals, become the creation story moment.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL
All that Gebek thing says is that it is possible for the owner of the land to detect the magical activity of intruders within it, which we have first-hand knowledge of anyway. We were able to go outside of the owned limits and sacrifice just fine.

super sweet best pal
Nov 18, 2009

I still say we should wrestle Nusku.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?


Cannon_Fodder posted:

OR people know he's blooded as poo poo, Tudiya's trusted friend/consult, and a foreigner and he's not trying to influence religious practice in Zepath by being so overly zealous about sacrifices. :iiam:

Making zero sacrifices ever is setting a weird example. If he wanted to lay low, blend in, and not influence how Zepath practiced at all he should be sacrificing about as often as Tudiya and the Mighty Men do because that's how often super Blooded people already sacrifice in Zepath. The fact that there's a super Blooded guy not sacrificing at all could send weird messages if anybody noticed. Which, actually, kinda weird that nobody seems to notice, maybe it's under an SEP field like all our immortal friends are?

Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Sep 27, 2018

Task Manager
Sep 5, 2008

A weird time in which we are alive. We can travel anywhere we want, even to other planets. And for what? To sit day after day, declining in morale and hope.

Dr Subterfuge posted:

All that Gebek thing says is that it is possible for the owner of the land to detect the magical activity of intruders within it, which we have first-hand knowledge of anyway. We were able to go outside of the owned limits and sacrifice just fine.

Agreed. However, we also know that powerful begins other than El have been watching Enkidel, largely thanks to sandwiches us opening the "Watcher" door while 7bird was ravaging Enkidel's brain. Foreign worship on one's own soil does seem to raise alarm bells, but it also is likely that any powerful enough being can detect worship occurring that isn't to them specifically - the question just becomes will they do something about it or not.

Even though I brought it up, I don't think its really the sole reason Ishamal isn't sacrificing to El. Just something to consider, since we know that men like Enkidel need to be careful of how much attention they draw to themselves from god-like beings. It might explain why he is hesitant to constantly sacrifice to El, but it doesn't really explain why since the day we've met him he hasn't sacrificed once in our presence. For that, I think the theories that Ishamal knows "Giant-hating El isn't El-El" and the various off-shoots of that theory are probably more likely.

Swedish Thaumocracy
Jul 11, 2006

Strength of >800 Men
Honor of 0
Grimey Drawer
What is Ishamals presence like?

Schwza
Apr 28, 2008
Ish is probably Zepa.

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Schwza posted:

Ish is probably Zepa.

I feel like he probably is at this point. He's somewhere Zepa-adjacent. I assume the weird demon-filled bone cave under Zepath is Zepa's fallen nephilim kids and Ish won't talk about his own kids that are gone. It lines up.

Zodiac5000
Jun 19, 2006

Protects the Pack!

Doctor Rope
I stand by "relationships with god in Ur appear to be contractual and Ishamal has his own contract with the divine locked down, why bother sacrificing?' It's the Occam's razor option. The reason sacrifices are made is because it follows sacred laws and agreements with El. If Ish has his own unique agreement with the servants of god (which we know he does) why would/should he sacrifice anything according to the standard 'House of El' sacrificing schedule.

TacoNight
Feb 18, 2011

Stop, hey, what's that sound?

Schwza posted:

Ish is probably Zepa.

They can't be further from one another in personality.

Ish is all about calm, discretion, and avoiding too much attention. A great hero that doesn't openly take up arms, even though he does seem to go off to fight.

Zepa, on the other hand, has no chill.

SerSpook
Feb 13, 2012




Schwza posted:

Ish is probably Zepa.

agreed, been saying it for years, i guess he might just be an ancient dude not mentioned in stories or anything, but if he's someone we'd recognize than he's zepa

Swedish Thaumocracy posted:

What is Ishamals presence like?

last update we had on it, it was larger than any other presence in zepath, other than the temple of el's, no mentions of foreignness or strangeness, it hasn't really been asked about for awhile though

i'm real curious what enkidel's presence feels like tbh, alas we are not able to presence sense ourselves

SerSpook
Feb 13, 2012




TacoNight posted:

They can't be further from one another in personality.

Ish is all about calm, discretion, and avoiding too much attention. A great hero that doesn't openly take up arms, even though he does seem to go off to fight.

Zepa, on the other hand, has no chill.

i don't think we have enough info on zepa to judge his personality

e: plus people are bound to change over 10,000+ years if ishamal is actually zepa

Diqnol
May 10, 2010

Ish has directly told us he is not Zepa. Sure he isn’t a font of knowledge sometimes but has he ever actually lied?

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?


The Zepa we know from stories is a massive rear end in a top hat who took his ball and hosed off into the wilderness because he didn't get a big enough slice of the pie back in Baitel, and then built a big monument talking about how awesome he was and how big his dick is and how he TOTALLY kicked that shark's rear end bro and you must do EXACTLY what I say for all eternity.

Although yeah 10,000+ years probably has a bit of a mellowing effect on people, I guess Ish could theoretically be Zepa.

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL

ELO Musk posted:

Ish has directly told us he is not Zepa. Sure he isn’t a font of knowledge sometimes but has he ever actually lied?

Yeah I wold be all on board the Ish is Zapa train if he hadn't explicitly told us he wasn't. While we're at is he has also told us he isn't a nephilhim like us.

Zodiac5000
Jun 19, 2006

Protects the Pack!

Doctor Rope
How do you reconcile "Ish is Zepa" and "I won't defend Zepath forever, that's for Zepathans to do"?

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?


Dr Subterfuge posted:

Yeah I wold be all on board the Ish is Zapa train if he hadn't explicitly told us he wasn't. While we're at is he has also told us he isn't a nephilhim like us.

On the other hand, if there's anything worth lying about in this universe it's vehemently denying both of those things regardless of whether they might be true or not. Not that I actually think he's either of the above, but on the 0.00000001% chance he is, it's not like he'd admit it.

John Lee
Mar 2, 2013

A time traveling adventure everyone can enjoy

I had a bad dream last night where, to keep the summary short, I was playing a board game based on the thread, and we all had characters but the character of Enkidel was supposed to be a collaborative endeavor, but everyone just kept defaulting to "Eh, whatever you say, John, it's cool," and I was incredibly stressed about being the only guy in charge of Our Friend Enkidel.

I have no idea what kind of notes Diog keeps re: our personalities and how much of a difference they make to in-game stuff (if any), but I figured that this'd be a good time to lay out how I feel regarding voting, in case it makes a miniscule difference to Diog's Calculation Engine:

I don't vote much at all, for a number of reasons.

1. I'm not entirely comfortable putting my vote in when the consequences are hard to predict and the (virtual) stakes are so high.
2. I don't want to engender a bunch of ill will by voting 'wrong;' this thread can get pretty heated sometimes, and I don't want to get that shitstorm directed at me.
3. Almost always, when I put together a coherent argument about something important, I read the thread only to find that someone else has said it better and is far in the lead.
4. One time, I was really in a good mood, and excited to read the latest update, and I was feeling so jazzed I was even going to vote, and for the first time ever I skimmed an update and it just so happened to be the one where Diog put a hidden command on how to vote to check who was actually reading the updates and I've been ashamed every time I enter this thread since.


So most of the time when I DO vote, I'm a little drunk, or really tired, because I have to be out of my normal state of mind to actually show myself in the thread.

ThatBasqueGuy
Feb 14, 2013

someone introduce jojo to lazyb


The secret is to absorb the energy the haters give a wrongvoter, and let it refine you into a more powerful poster

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007

Beaky the Tortoise says, click here to join our choose Your Own Adventure Game!

Paradise Lost: Clash of the Heavens!

John Lee posted:

I had a bad dream last night where, to keep the summary short, I was playing a board game based on the thread, and we all had characters but the character of Enkidel was supposed to be a collaborative endeavor, but everyone just kept defaulting to "Eh, whatever you say, John, it's cool," and I was incredibly stressed about being the only guy in charge of Our Friend Enkidel.

I have no idea what kind of notes Diog keeps re: our personalities and how much of a difference they make to in-game stuff (if any), but I figured that this'd be a good time to lay out how I feel regarding voting, in case it makes a miniscule difference to Diog's Calculation Engine:

I don't vote much at all, for a number of reasons.

1. I'm not entirely comfortable putting my vote in when the consequences are hard to predict and the (virtual) stakes are so high.
2. I don't want to engender a bunch of ill will by voting 'wrong;' this thread can get pretty heated sometimes, and I don't want to get that shitstorm directed at me.
3. Almost always, when I put together a coherent argument about something important, I read the thread only to find that someone else has said it better and is far in the lead.
4. One time, I was really in a good mood, and excited to read the latest update, and I was feeling so jazzed I was even going to vote, and for the first time ever I skimmed an update and it just so happened to be the one where Diog put a hidden command on how to vote to check who was actually reading the updates and I've been ashamed every time I enter this thread since.


So most of the time when I DO vote, I'm a little drunk, or really tired, because I have to be out of my normal state of mind to actually show myself in the thread.
That is okay John, we forgive you. Also, if it helps you sleep better at night I want you to know that I am confident that if you DID make all the votes yourself, they would all be great votes!

Dr Subterfuge
Aug 31, 2005

TIME TO ROC N' ROLL

Zodiac5000 posted:

How do you reconcile "Ish is Zepa" and "I won't defend Zepath forever, that's for Zepathans to do"?

I have the vague notion that Zepa agreed not to interfere anymore, which probably means he's hosed off to god knows where, but could also maybe mean "is just an eternal advisory to the city who talks to the Trio and doesn't fight." Though of course, Ish doing anything at all (like the trip that ended up recovering us, and especially agreeing to cover Zepath even temporarily) kind of flies in the face of what I remember of the stories of what Zapa agreed to.

Volmarias
Dec 31, 2002

EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Diogines posted:

That is okay John, we forgive you. Also, if it helps you sleep better at night I want you to know that I am confident that if you DID make all the votes yourself, they would all be great votes!

Your votes are the best, and they WILL be realized.

SerSpook
Feb 13, 2012




Everything you vote for will come to fruition.

Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004
Lipstick Apathy

ThatBasqueGuy posted:

The secret is to absorb the energy the haters give a wrongvoter, and let it refine you into a more powerful poster

Truly.

Did what I vote for turn out poorly? I was forced into this vote due to the circumstances of previous wrong votes.

Did the wrong vote win and everything was ok? This is only because of my tireless right voting/posting during prior votes.

rex monday
Jul 9, 2001

Pisk. Pisk. Piiiiiiisk!

John Lee posted:

I had a bad dream last night where, to keep the summary short, I was playing a board game based on the thread, and we all had characters but the character of Enkidel was supposed to be a collaborative endeavor, but everyone just kept defaulting to "Eh, whatever you say, John, it's cool," and I was incredibly stressed about being the only guy in charge of Our Friend Enkidel.

I have no idea what kind of notes Diog keeps re: our personalities and how much of a difference they make to in-game stuff (if any), but I figured that this'd be a good time to lay out how I feel regarding voting, in case it makes a miniscule difference to Diog's Calculation Engine:

I don't vote much at all, for a number of reasons.

1. I'm not entirely comfortable putting my vote in when the consequences are hard to predict and the (virtual) stakes are so high.
2. I don't want to engender a bunch of ill will by voting 'wrong;' this thread can get pretty heated sometimes, and I don't want to get that shitstorm directed at me.
3. Almost always, when I put together a coherent argument about something important, I read the thread only to find that someone else has said it better and is far in the lead.
4. One time, I was really in a good mood, and excited to read the latest update, and I was feeling so jazzed I was even going to vote, and for the first time ever I skimmed an update and it just so happened to be the one where Diog put a hidden command on how to vote to check who was actually reading the updates and I've been ashamed every time I enter this thread since.


So most of the time when I DO vote, I'm a little drunk, or really tired, because I have to be out of my normal state of mind to actually show myself in the thread.

This is also how I feel. I follow this thread every day. Hell, it's 90% of the reason I check the forums these days. But I don't feel comfortable voting almost ever.

By popular demand
Jul 17, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 9 hours!
EL WOULD NOT HAVE HIS WORKVOTES DONE BY COWARDS

super sweet best pal
Nov 18, 2009

ELO Musk posted:

Ish has directly told us he is not Zepa. Sure he isn’t a font of knowledge sometimes but has he ever actually lied?

That time we asked him if the giants might retaliate and he told us not to worry about it, but that's more a lie of omission.

Mr. Nemo
Feb 4, 2016

I wish I had a sister like my big strong Daddy :(

ELO Musk posted:

Ish has directly told us he is not Zepa. Sure he isn’t a font of knowledge sometimes but has he ever actually lied?

Back when we were leaving Athar he told us we weren’t Blooded. I guess it may technically not been lie.

John Lee
Mar 2, 2013

A time traveling adventure everyone can enjoy

Diogines posted:

That is okay John, we forgive you. Also, if it helps you sleep better at night I want you to know that I am confident that if you DID make all the votes yourself, they would all be great votes!

Good to know that, apparently, Diog doesn't even read my posts!

(ohohohohohoho, I jest of course)

edit: (because if Diog believes I'm a good voter he hasn't been paying attention, see)

John Lee fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Sep 27, 2018

MetricUnit
Jan 2, 2005
Ish told us we have a well (and then told us it's a lie), Ish told us we don't have wings and to stop growing wings (we definitely have wings). He kept telling us we weren't a melachim (but we're pretty close to one). He probably lies about other stuff though I think it's always been for our benefit/living as a man.

Diogines posted:

That is okay John, we forgive you. Also, if it helps you sleep better at night I want you to know that I am confident that if you DID make all the votes yourself, they would all be great votes!

Confirmed that the rightest vote is not voting.

Lanky Coconut Tree
Apr 7, 2011

An angry tree.

The angriest tree

MetricUnit posted:

Ish told us we have a well (and then told us it's a lie), Ish told us we don't have wings and to stop growing wings (we definitely have wings). He kept telling us we weren't a melachim (but we're pretty close to one). He probably lies about other stuff though I think it's always been for our benefit/living as a man.


Confirmed that the rightest vote is not voting.

He lies about stuff to benefit Ur / Trio. It's in their interest that we aren't powerful enough to threaten anyone.

TK-42-1
Oct 30, 2013

looks like we have a bad transmitter



Lanky Coconut Tree posted:

He lies about stuff to benefit Ur / Trio. It's in their interest that we aren't powerful enough to threaten anyone.

Its the kind of lie you tell a child when they ask where babies come from or why mommy and daddy aren't together any more.

SerSpook
Feb 13, 2012




He lied about whales being his favorite food :argh:

Zodiac5000
Jun 19, 2006

Protects the Pack!

Doctor Rope

super sweet best pal posted:

That time we asked him if the giants might retaliate and he told us not to worry about it, but that's more a lie of omission.

Is it? He told Tudiya that it was extremely unlikely that retribution would follow, IIRC. We have no reason to believe that was an inaccurate statement, and it aligns with what he said to us about not having to worry about it.

Task Manager
Sep 5, 2008

A weird time in which we are alive. We can travel anywhere we want, even to other planets. And for what? To sit day after day, declining in morale and hope.
Ish straight out flew threw the air and personally channeled the might of Smythos to stop a poor little cannibal boy from being sucked into Asherah's maw, and then years later tried playing it off that he leaped from a tree and just grabbed us, no big deal.

Don't believe his lies.

Blasphemaster
Jul 10, 2008

Maybe Ish doesn't need to sacrifice because he made a giant kickass sacrifice to bring shame to all other sacrifices, and El was all "Who dude that's enough! You can retire now. I know a nice shore town where nothing happens ever..."

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MetricUnit
Jan 2, 2005
I wonder how long it would take us to actually become a real threat to the status quo in Ur. We seem to be weaker than our peers (Aaron/Danal/Uriah), who aren't even that blooded compared to the generation before Tudiya, let alone the grandsons of Labaras.

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