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Nessus posted:I think people mean several things by "capitalism." That's not capitalism though, money has existed for thousands of years and capitalism about 200.
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Oct 3, 2018 10:25
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MrL_JaKiri posted:That's not capitalism though, money has existed for thousands of years and capitalism about 200. It makes some sense that Stellaris would default to something vaguely resembling state capitalism since 'something vaguely resembling state capitalism' is pretty much every government in the world.
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Oct 3, 2018 10:37
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Nessus posted:Yes well mutter mutter something something democratic party and that's why it is inevitable that any space nation will be literally comical uber-capitalism to its highest possible extent. Yeah which is why were not going to make it into space
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Oct 3, 2018 10:41
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Strategic Tea posted:What is with this bizarro belief that capitalism will implode? The powers that be are richer and more powerful than ever thanks, outside of the USA retail sector or whatever. its more optimistic than thinking hellworld will never end
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Oct 3, 2018 11:11
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Strategic Tea posted:What is with this bizarro belief that capitalism will implode? Or, as it was put earlier in the thread, Splicer posted:Well, that's late stage capitalism for you.
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Oct 3, 2018 11:50
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Wiz please make a Curator greeting quote be something along the lines of "Did you think yourself to be at the end of history? Trust me: You're not."
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Oct 3, 2018 12:03
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I think that'd work as a Fallen Empire quote, also. Probably the Enigmatics.
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Oct 3, 2018 12:07
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Nessus posted:Wiz please make a Curator greeting quote be something along the lines of "Did you think yourself to be at the end of history? Trust me: You're not."
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Oct 3, 2018 12:09
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Whoever changed the thread title missed out on Stellaris Boo! point oh. Shameful
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Oct 3, 2018 12:11
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We're coming up on Stellaris Boo point Boo actually
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Oct 3, 2018 12:24
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Nessus posted:Wiz please make a Curator greeting quote be something along the lines of "Did you think yourself to be at the end of history? Trust me: You're not."
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Oct 3, 2018 12:39
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LordMune posted:We're coming up on Stellaris Boo point Boo actually 2.2 October release confirmed.
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Oct 3, 2018 12:47
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Aethernet posted:https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/1047392341215068160?s=19 Finally, I can make my Cult of the Bomb purifiers hold Tomb Worlds sacred. May the Blessings of the Bomb Almighty, and the Fellowship of the Holy Fallout, descend upon us all. Nessus posted:Wiz please make a Curator greeting quote be something along the lines of "Did you think yourself to be at the end of history? Trust me: You're not."
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Oct 3, 2018 13:04
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Nessus posted:Wiz please make a Curator greeting quote be something along the lines of "Did you think yourself to be at the end of history? Trust me: You're not." This is a good quote but I can't quite tell why - maybe it's just the right amount of enigmatic with a tinge of menacing? I hope it makes it into the game. I also love the we can declare anything holy now instead of burning a gaia world. The flat unit bonus is kinda 'meh' but since you can now declare it on any lump of rock you come across it doesn't have that much of a tradeoff.
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Oct 3, 2018 13:31
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Psychotic Weasel posted:This is a good quote but I can't quite tell why - maybe it's just the right amount of enigmatic with a tinge of menacing? I hope it makes it into the game.
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Oct 3, 2018 13:41
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Commercializing beliefs for fun and profit could be a good fit for some governments, not sure if it'll make it I to the game or not but we'll have to see just how deep the new trade mechanics really are. Also recently announced that there will be another dev stream tomorrow afternoon after the diary so we can see more of the changes in action.
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Oct 3, 2018 14:24
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Corporation may be a very specific term, and maybe it changes depending on what would be more relevant to your situation, but why would most government types not have a private sector? I mean, fanatics probably wouldn't. Fanatic militatarists, egalitarians, spiritualists definitely shouldn't. Purifiers wouldn't (no pissing away resources on not killing the xenos) gestalts wouldn't. Authoritarians might but it depends on whether they're social stratification via money authoritarian or obsessive BDSM varying-levels-of-slavery society. Like there's definitely room for empires with a big private sector but in the range of ethics and government types stellaris has it's not going to be many of them, I think. So it'd be weird to have a planet tab that wildly changes function per-empire because that suggests a lot of different interfaces and mechanics.
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Oct 3, 2018 14:47
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, fanatics probably wouldn't. Fanatic militatarists, egalitarians, spiritualists definitely shouldn't. Purifiers wouldn't (no pissing away resources on not killing the xenos) gestalts wouldn't. Authoritarians might but it depends on whether they're social stratification via money authoritarian or obsessive BDSM varying-levels-of-slavery society. They may not have corporations as we define them but I'm sure they'd still have private business concerns and wealthy elite controlling it just as we do. The more specialized civilization types (machine empires, hiveminds, etc.) would have less of an interest in such things give the way they are governed but they are very rare generally speaking and Wiz has already mentioned their trade mechanics and how they interact with markets will be different.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:15
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Why would materialists - who's beliefs revolve around owning material wealth - Also, dictatorships are a choosable government type. It'd be weird if an authoritarian dictatorship could do everything to their citizens up to and including literally processing them into nutrient paste, but restricting free enterprise is a bridge too far.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:31
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Psychotic Weasel posted:This is a good quote but I can't quite tell why - maybe it's just the right amount of enigmatic with a tinge of menacing? I hope it makes it into the game. Wiz clearly says that the effects vary according to the world you choose. If you make a toxic world holy, it might give you the unity bonus but alwo generate a lot of bad events. I think it's possible that "burning" a gaia world might still be worth it.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:57
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Splicer posted:That's not what the materialist ethic means. It's a focus on the material world and the study thereof and shunning of woo (even when the woo is real, apparently). I don’t know why people keep saying this, there are no penalties to going psionic as materialists except that you need a psionic expert. So psionics are only shunned as woo until you research psionic theory, proving that it’s not woo.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:58
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Looks like there is a 2.2 Dev stream tomorrow 7-8 am pdt on twitch.
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Oct 3, 2018 16:11
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That’s 14-15 UTC so the rest of you don’t need to google PDT too. Only an hour though? Aren’t most Paradox streams two hours?
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Oct 3, 2018 16:15
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Why would materialists - who's beliefs revolve around owning material wealth - not have a private sector? Same with spiritualists; The Catholic Church is also one of the wealthiest organizations in the planet (The Vatican has their own bank for Christ's sake and it is surrounded by corruption) and have you taken a look at Mecca lately? Or the US South? Or all that new age, homeopathic bullshit? There's big business in spirituality. Lots of money to be made. I said militarists, not materialists. Materialists could but it depends on whether you go FALGSC or corporate dystopia as they're entirely suited to both. Spiritualist comparisons to IRL don't entirely work because we don't live in a literal theocracy, churches are tied up with money because they exist in a fundamentally capitalist society and thus they are co-opted by it. If real, actual, honest to god religious zealotry was the underpinning of everyday life to the degree that money is today for us, I don't think there would be a very large private sector, not least because it would basically be heresy; religions outside the governing state sanctioned one. Like, virtually anything that exists on earth at this present time is happening under fanatic capitalist governing ethics, so yes you see that echoed in many things, but that's a strange assumption to make about literal aliens with fantastic space ethics. Star trek type "we do not have a concept of your human dollars" kind of thing is much more, I think, appropriate for Stellaris ethics. Modern day earth does however make a pretty good indication of what "governing ethics" mean to a society in stellaris, cos yeah, pursuit of money is the underpinning of modern society, if you replace that with something else, it's a good jumping off point for imagining what your space aliens might be like. Least that's how I've always done it. Other aspects exist but they all exist in context of that one thing. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 16:17
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Staltran posted:I don’t know why people keep saying this, there are no penalties to going psionic as materialists except that you need a psionic expert. So psionics are only shunned as woo until you research psionic theory, proving that it’s not woo.
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Oct 3, 2018 16:20
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Staltran posted:That’s 14-15 UTC so the rest of you don’t need to google PDT too. Only an hour though? Aren’t most Paradox streams two hours? help I don't know how to convert to paradox dev time
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Oct 3, 2018 16:32
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Not to get too into speculation but does dev stream suggest we might get a release date soon? I don’t know how these things have gone in the past.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:03
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OwlFancier posted:I said militarists, not materialists. Materialists could but it depends on whether you go FALGSC or corporate dystopia as they're entirely suited to both. Whoops, I misread that. Sorry. But the same logic applies - there's no reason industry and businesses wouldn't spring up in such a society. Wherever there's a buck to be made there will be someone there to make it. It's been that way in society since the dawn of civilization, long before articles of incorporation ever became a thing. People will always work towards acquiring what they need to survive, be it money, or food, or metals or whatever else society values and can be bargained with. That is more or less what trade values seems to represent (and probably why it's not called 'money' specifically). It stands to reason that any society that doesn't exert total control over their people and their lives would have room for private businesses to exist as people tried to run their lives as they see fit. Even if it's just wealthy elites using their positions of authority to exert more control with government blessing. Splicer posted:Can we agree that they don't mean material as in the Madonna song though It should though  Now I have Madonna stuck in my head and YouTube thinks I need to relive all the 80s greatest hits in my queue.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:16
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Bold Robot posted:Not to get too into speculation but does dev stream suggest we might get a release date soon? I don’t know how these things have gone in the past. We had a stream the week before last and there was no release date or release window mentioned. I don't see any reason why it would be different this time. But maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised. I just don't want it being released around the end of Feb when it'll overlap with Anno 1800. I only have enough room in my heart (and my day) for one new release at a time.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:18
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Whoops, I misread that. Sorry.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:33
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Psychotic Weasel posted:Whoops, I misread that. Sorry. The specific way in which corporations accumulate capital and the control it offers them over society is, as someone has already pointed out, not very old, and is quite distinct from the social organization that came before it. Feudalism is not capitalism or coporatism. How an industrialized alien society, which all stellaris civs are, deals with its production, disbursement, and accumulation of resources, is very definitely not limited to different variations on how we, in 21st century earth, do it. The entire notion of "the private sector" didn't exist until after industrializiation and how that happened is very much informed by the political circumstances of the time. It's just extremely weird for a scifi setting to believe that every single alien in the galaxy underwent a near-mirror of earth history except that some of them have more bible belters, some of them have more scientists, and some of them have more hitlers. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 17:33
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No idea who changed the thread title or why, but I assume it's a reference to Halloween. Or, how terrible we all are at posting.
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Oct 3, 2018 17:36
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I'm pretty sure that non-Gestalts all gain access to the internal marketplace because it would be completely break gameplay to restrict it to only materialist / egalitarian empires. You could give the non-marketplace empires some extra bonuses in return but that would be hard to balance. I'd imagine that societies without private enterprise could enact inefficient work orders to generate a particular resource quickly / pull resources from stockpiles or buffers in a supply chain which would disrupt it / recycle or re-purpose old equipment or materials that are otherwise too expensive to make useful. Double rations for your miners but force them to work 12 hour shifts (food->minerals), burn some wood or fossil fuels for a quick boost (minerals->energy), run the growlights 24/7 (energy->food).
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Oct 3, 2018 17:43
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Aethernet posted:No idea who changed the thread title or why, but I assume it's a reference to Halloween. The subforum is now "Video graves" and most/all threads have spooky names 
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Oct 3, 2018 17:46
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Nevets posted:I'm pretty sure that non-Gestalts all gain access to the internal marketplace because it would be completely break gameplay to restrict it to only materialist / egalitarian empires. You could give the non-marketplace empires some extra bonuses in return but that would be hard to balance. Markets are a sensible gameplay concession I agree, it's more the notion of every empire having a "corporate" tab on their planets that seems weird, I can't imagine what many ethics setups would use it for. It'd certainly be cool to have some kind of non-governmental sector modelling like some other 4X games do. But it would have to be something you lean into/away from, ideally with pros and cons either way. You could do full megacorp/anarchist future where you wield minimal power over the empire as a whole, to full state control of everything. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 17:48
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OwlFancier posted:It's just extremely weird for a scifi setting to believe that every single alien in the galaxy underwent a near-mirror of earth history except that some of them have more bible belters, some of them have more scientists, and some of them have more hitlers. Yeah, that would be really off-putting. Luckily Stellaris doesn't have this bullshit
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Oct 3, 2018 18:03
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Nevets posted:I'm pretty sure that non-Gestalts all gain access to the internal marketplace because it would be completely break gameplay to restrict it to only materialist / egalitarian empires. You could give the non-marketplace empires some extra bonuses in return but that would be hard to balance.
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Oct 3, 2018 18:04
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I got my endgame crisis! The Prethoryn showed up, and it turns out that external threats are good for unity, because as soon as they arrived, I immediately got requests from the one independent faction left and the Awakened Empire to join my Federation. Turns out that facing an entire unified galaxy is pretty difficult. This is the current status quo after the galactic forces suffered a loss due to some clumsy manuevering that resulted in us warping in to a battle piecemeal instead of all at once, allowing the Prethoryn to pick off each fleet as they showed up. My fleets are back at their home bases, getting repaired and having their losses replaced, then we'll be back.  Incidentally, what's a proper difficulty to play at? I usually play 4x games on "the AI gets no penalties but also no bullshit bonuses" but in Stellaris that's the lowest difficulty? Should I be giving them some bullshit bonuses?
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Oct 3, 2018 18:19
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Libluini posted:Yeah, that would be really off-putting. Luckily Stellaris doesn't have this bullshit The primitive civ development I don't mind so much because it doesn't really factor into the main gameplay, but certainly in actual space empire terms the game has stayed a bit silent about the specifics of societal organization. Now that the new patch is introducing things like worker classes and going a bit more into the type of society you want to run, it'd be weird for it to tack on "also all empires have big corporate sectors" when it's gone to the effort to make big differences between how empires distribute their population according to class. So I'm curious as to what the tab is for and whether it changes depending on your empire if it is a corporate tab.
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Oct 3, 2018 18:21
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Splicer posted:Can we agree that they don't mean material as in the Madonna song though Yeah sure. I think it had some of that flavor in 1.0 but that might have been just the Galt quote for individualist/materialists. All gone now though. CapnAndy posted:Incidentally, what's a proper difficulty to play at? I usually play 4x games on "the AI gets no penalties but also no bullshit bonuses" but in Stellaris that's the lowest difficulty? Should I be giving them some bullshit bonuses? Probably, just kick up the difficulty a couple notches and see if it still seems too easy. You can also turn on the scaling toggle so the AIs start with no bonuses and then get bigger bonuses every year until they have the full difficulty bonuses at endgame year. Either way you might also consider moving mid/end game start years sooner.
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Oct 3, 2018 18:31
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