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Bakanogami posted:IIRC Grandpa Worms knows the grail is corrupted, though I don't know when/how he learned that.
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Oct 6, 2018 02:35
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Also you can't underestimate the morality of wizards.
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Oct 6, 2018 02:37
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Dr Pepper posted:Also you can't underestimate the morality of wizards. I can't underestimate it because I would need to see some evidence of it existing first.
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Oct 6, 2018 02:38
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So what was that giant marble thing in Fate/Zero?
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Oct 6, 2018 02:42
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Yeah, I remember now! He did state he was trying to possess/become Sakura in HF so yeah, Grandpa Worms probably knew.W.T. Fits posted:I can't underestimate it because I would need to see some evidence of it existing first. 
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Oct 6, 2018 02:44
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Hunt11 posted:So what was that giant marble thing in Fate/Zero? You mean Kayneth’s Volumen Hydrangeum? Dude just used a great big ball of enchanted mercury as a weapon because if you can, then why the gently caress wouldn’t you?
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Oct 6, 2018 02:44
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Darth Walrus posted:You mean Kayneth’s Volumen Hydrangeum? Dude just used a great big ball of enchanted mercury as a weapon because if you can, then why the gently caress wouldn’t you? You wouldn't because mercury is poisonous.
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Oct 6, 2018 02:48
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Bakanogami posted:You wouldn't because mercury is poisonous. Which is a downside to a magical murder weapon how? Edit: Also, doesn't Waver turn it into his own personal tsundere later on?
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Oct 6, 2018 02:53
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Bakanogami posted:You wouldn't because mercury is poisonous. That just makes it an even better weapon.
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Oct 6, 2018 02:54
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W.T. Fits posted:I can't underestimate it because I would need to see some evidence of it existing first. The Tohsaka and Edelfelt families are generally pretty okay and even though Waver's an rear end he is a good person
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Oct 6, 2018 03:01
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You need some assholery in you to be a magus Re: zero, diarmuid is very handsome and I have NP2 Saber diarmuid in my life, I am a complete woman Compendium fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 03:16
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zero is best experienced in the form of screenshots cut together into comics, because whoever directed the anime had an unusually poor grasp of timing and cuts even for anime.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:16
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Robviously posted:Which is a downside to a magical murder weapon how? Not tsundere, but rather somewhat psychotic maid. As in one of his students showed the modified (to be his maid) Volumen the movie Terminator 2 when Waver wasn't looking... and it picked up occasional T-1000 habits.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:23
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RevolverDivider posted:Shirou is a way, way better character then Rin and that's not a slight against Rin. I can't find a single thing positive to say about him as a character other than that before the grail war he seemed like a somewhat responsible person. Other than that he's just constantly bland when he's not throwing himself in front of monsters to get almost killed because he doesn't understand the concept that the Servants are stronger than him. Characters in Zero had some sense and the whole thing doesn't just rely on backstories to give the servants some character. Saber and the two other kings talking about their philosophies is written better than anything in the VN adaptions. Ccs fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 04:30
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I like Shirou fine when he's at home. He's cute when Rin makes fun of him. His superhero fixation doesn't do anything for me and manifests in annoying ways, though. Edit: I did like how sympathetic and admiring Shirou is to Saber when he starts learning her background and seeing her flashbacks. You really get the sense that he's torn up inside about her sacrifices and betrayal. And if he wasn't such a straightforward naive simp Rin wouldn't have taken pity on him. Randallteal fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 04:35
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Ccs posted:I can't find a single thing positive to say about him as a character other than that before the grail war he seemed like a somewhat responsible person. He is a responsible person who does his best to make up for his fuckups and make sure the people he cares about and bonds with are safe from the war and also he cooks for them, what the gently caress are you talking about Compendium fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 05:11
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You either haven't gotten far enough to see what the actual point of Shirou's character is or are being incredibly willfully obtuse.
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Oct 6, 2018 06:13
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There being a reason for a bad character does not change that character's overall quality.
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Oct 6, 2018 06:21
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Ccs posted:I can't find a single thing positive to say about him as a character other than that before the grail war he seemed like a somewhat responsible person. Any adaptation of the VN to anime either has stuff missing or tries to shoehorn info/events from other routes. Either way, it's awkward. To get the full breath of every character's backstory you have to see all 3 routes. Kotomine for example, is not at all explored as a character in the first 2 routes. He comes off as a generic badguy until Heaven's Feel. And the anime version of UBW isn't going to get too deep into stuff going on with him. Saber also gets very little screen time in UBW, which also comes off as weird unless you've gone through the Fate route. The VN came out 15 years ago and the character archetypes were already old hat when it came out, let alone right now. I can see why some people get annoyed by the tropes, because they've seen it done before. But FSN uses those tired tropes better than almost any other franchise without necessarily subverting any of them. If you already have it in your mind that the dumb, teenage protagonist can't be done well, than Shirou will always seem bad. I don't know if the UBW anime pulled off every part of his character from the VN, but he's one of the best dumb, teenage protagonist ever. Just like Rin is one of the best Tsundere characters ever.
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Oct 6, 2018 08:24
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Trihugger posted:Any adaptation of the VN to anime either has stuff missing or tries to shoehorn info/events from other routes. Either way, it's awkward. To get the full breath of every character's backstory you have to see all 3 routes. Kotomine for example, is not at all explored as a character in the first 2 routes. He comes off as a generic badguy until Heaven's Feel. And the anime version of UBW isn't going to get too deep into stuff going on with him. Saber also gets very little screen time in UBW, which also comes off as weird unless you've gone through the Fate route. I think ‘one of the best ever’ might be over-egging it - dude’s central conflict is too weird and abstract to be particularly interesting or generate much empathy, and Nasu’s extraordinarily repetitive writing style (hey, did you know that fake ideals will lead you to destruction?) makes the struggle more a tedious repetition of duelling platitudes than something compelling, particularly in the early routes where he has to soft-sell the personal, human cost of people’s actions to lock us into the perspective of someone who doesn’t seriously care for them except on a vague aesthetic level. Like, if they’d shown us the mounting casualties from Gilgamesh’s doomsday plan at the end of UBW, then all that quibbling over whether it was bad that Shirou had learned to value charity from another person would have been even more ridiculous. While Kiritsugu isn’t a teenage protagonist, I think Fate/zero’s take on the concept was more effective in a number of ways. First, it ditched the whole dumb imposter syndrome thing, which received way too much page time for how trivial a concern it was, and delved right into the central conflict of whether Kiritsugu’s ideology, whether self-created or learned from others, was actually human-compatible. Second, we were given a much broader narrative perspective, letting us see our sort-of-protagonist more from the outside and giving us more of a feel for the consequences of his ideology, making us invested in where this fanatical, murderous weirdo’s worldview is going to lead long before that becomes something he starts seriously caring about. Third, his whole struggle is much more compressed, meaning that we have to sit through much less tedious abstract waffle (especially since we’re not living in his head for the whole run, and get to spend time with a bunch of diverse characters with their own interesting ideas of what being a hero means) before the real world finally intrudes on his ideological masturbation session. I mean, Christ, we go through two routes which, combined, are the length of War and Peace before the protagonist has to deal with the unavoidable consequences of his ideology for someone he cares about. Get a loving editor, Nasu.
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Oct 6, 2018 10:41
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Darth Walrus posted:I think ‘one of the best ever’ might be over-egging it - dude’s central conflict is too weird and abstract to be particularly interesting or generate much empathy, and Nasu’s extraordinarily repetitive writing style (hey, did you know that fake ideals will lead you to destruction?) makes the struggle more a tedious repetition of duelling platitudes than something compelling, particularly in the early routes where he has to soft-sell the personal, human cost of people’s actions to lock us into the perspective of someone who doesn’t seriously care for them except on a vague aesthetic level. Like, if they’d shown us the mounting casualties from Gilgamesh’s doomsday plan at the end of UBW, then all that quibbling over whether it was bad that Shirou had learned to value charity from another person would have been even more ridiculous. I'd generally agree with this. Kiritsugu and Shirou's character arcs are both about how their ideal of saving everyone leads to their own personal ruin. The difference is that in Kiritsugu we see the implications and consequences much more clearly and succinctly. Shirou's talking about wanting to be a hero who saves people rings kind of hollow when in reality he's just a high school dork who enjoys cooking and playing with junk in his shed. Even when poo poo gets real in the grail war, half the time his actions just come off as stupid, rather than effectively communicating to the audience that he's broken on some core level. The things that Shirou's arc has over Kiritsugu's is that he learns to work past his conflict and find a hopeful future, while Kiritsugu's just a tragedy about how he became an utterly broken man.
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Oct 6, 2018 11:14
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Bakanogami posted:I'd generally agree with this. Kiritsugu and Shirou's character arcs are both about how their ideal of saving everyone leads to their own personal ruin. The difference is that in Kiritsugu we see the implications and consequences much more clearly and succinctly. Shirou's talking about wanting to be a hero who saves people rings kind of hollow when in reality he's just a high school dork who enjoys cooking and playing with junk in his shed. Even when poo poo gets real in the grail war, half the time his actions just come off as stupid, rather than effectively communicating to the audience that he's broken on some core level. Shirou being a selfish wannabe martyr is fine - the problem is the lack of outside perspective on who he helps and hurts by being that, and how they feel about it. In other words, he brings down the story and supporting cast by having a very limited perspective on it - he’s a fanatic, and fanatics see the world through a stunted, boring lens. Like, they can make a fun counterpoint with people more grounded in reality, but on their own, they cannot carry a story of F/SN’s obscene length. Imagine if War and Peace was all Pierre all the time, without other perspectives to contextualise and undermine his airy, head-in-the-clouds crap.
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Oct 6, 2018 11:28
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I walked away from Fate/Zero unable to give a flying gently caress about Kiritsugu I can absolutely understand and sympathize with Shirou's particular brand of broke brain than Kiritsugu, a character I hated and wanted to go away constantly so I could see more Waver or literally anyone else (except Kariya)
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Oct 6, 2018 12:02
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Blockhouse posted:I walked away from Fate/Zero unable to give a flying gently caress about Kiritsugu I feel that the main reason for that is that Shirou's and Kiritsugu's shared ideology is inherently childish and unrealistic. Now this works fine with Shirou. He is a dumb teenager after all, and two thirds of VN are about him realizing that his ideal is flawed and either recognizing that it is something impossible to achieve but worth striving for and tempering both his expectations and actions, or rejecting it outright in favor for more realistic approach. Kiritsugu on the other hand is an adult who followed the ideal Shirou has at the beginning of F/SN for his whole life without any growth or realization and does so to the inevitable bitter end in Fate/Zero, which pretty much makes him a dumb man-child. Lt. Lizard fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 12:18
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It is crazy how loving stupid Kiritsugu is. The Grail breaks him by asking him literally the most basic loving questions about his philosophy, things that would only not have occurred to him if he hadn't experienced a single moment of self reflection in his twenty or whatever years of murdering people for justice. It's like if someone spent their entire life running over people with trains and you blow their minds by introducing the trolley problem to them.
Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 12:24
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Blockhouse posted:It is crazy how loving stupid Kiritsugu is. The Grail breaks him by asking him literally the most basic loving questions about his philosophy. It's like if someone spent their entire life running over people with trains and you blow their minds by introducing the trolley problem to them. I mean, his whole thing was that he’d locked himself off from even basic self-reflection - it was why he was having that affair, among other things, so he wouldn’t care too much about the people he was going to expend and betray. It’s implied that he didn’t just fail to consider the trolley problem, or any other logical counterarguments to his course of action - he actively ran away from them until the Grail sat him down and forced him to take a good, long look at who he was. Kiritsugu may not be able to carry the whole story on his own, but I think he really does work as part of an ensemble. Every Master in the Fourth Holy Grail War is trying to be a hero of some sort in order to flee from who they really are, and he just happens to have coldly rational (well, ‘rational’) utilitarianism as his paper-thin mask of choice. I also like the punchline of that - the only person who really comes out the other side a better, healthier person is the kid who was actually far more decent than the monstrous vision of heroism he was aiming for, and who floats to the top after losing the game and discarding the dreams that led everyone else to their doom. It’s why Waver absolutely shouldn’t have won - the goal itself was incredibly unhealthy, and he could only survive and thrive by discarding the arrogance that drove him to it and finding something better to do with his life. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 12:35
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Nate RFB posted:The highschool nonsense results in far more compelling characterization than the entirety of Fate/Zero's cast put together. Yeah, I think the slice of life stuff from the VNs is actually good. For me, it’s what makes hollow ataraxia my favorite typemoon thing, and why I’d say that emiya gohan is the best fate anime. I was real happy to see the high school classmates show up in the latest emiya gohan episode.
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Oct 6, 2018 13:38
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Whenever this thread has the same old discussion about how Shirou sucks and Kerry is cool, everyone will be required to donate to my FGO quartz fund
Compendium fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 16:02
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Darth Walrus posted:I think ‘one of the best ever’ might be over-egging it - dude’s central conflict is too weird and abstract to be particularly interesting or generate much empathy. A young victim from a disaster gets thoroughly destroyed by survivor's guilt, losing his sense of self-worth, then fills in the void through admiration for his savior and deciding to dedicate himself to their childish/idealized vision of justice. What's weird and abstract about this? It's incredibly simple - it's an archetypal hero origin story. The interesting part is how Nasu then approaches this character: In a more traditional set up, a character like that would be law enforcement, or part of some organization dedicated to this, or a solo masked vigilante - a person already realized, or at the very least on their way to it. OTOH Shirou is just a kid. Shirou is a kid specifically at that point in life, about to enter his senior year in highschool, where normal people need to really start sorting out what they're gonna do with their lives moving forward... and that's exactly what he's trying to do! For all his commitment, he lacks guidance: he's wracked by the question "what is even a hero?" as his ideal clashes with the reality of the mundane world, and though the source of his ideal, Kiritsugu's example was too vague for him to follow. Kotomine's line that he finally gets to be a hero is so dramatic because it first confronts Shirou with the reality that he can only be a hero when there's tragedy, and by leaving the comfort of his everyday life. It takes a while to really click in for him, but Shirou is a master of self-denial. And speaking of denial, the story gives Shirou a pretty comfy support network. He's not some rich kid brooding in a huge mansion about bats, darkness, and no parents. His family is a little unusual but he has one, people care for him, he sits down for breakfast and dinner every day with them, and he's got good friends at work and school. Friends and family that, because Shirou is such a nice and helpful guy, have no idea what a broken person he is (aside from the one other broken person close to him, who keeps it to herself for her own reasons). It's a watershed, horrific moment when Rin realizes that Shirou is not simply a dummy acting on impulse, but that his self-sacrificial streaks are a symptom of how fundamentally twisted he is. This is exactly the reaction anyone who cares for him should have, and immediately she wants to help but has no idea how nor the true extent of his issues. I could go on and on but basically, FSN takes old and very common-use fantasy tropes and then passes them through the lense of a 'normal' world. Issues of morality, social responsibility, family abuse, trauma - Nasu takes things to their logical extremes so it comes off as melodramatic, but this is what he's doing, and even his extreme approach makes sense given that half the cast are mythical figures with larger-than-life tragedies behind them, so the other half has to step up.
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Oct 6, 2018 16:30
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Oh right, there was a new Emiya Gohan  
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Oct 6, 2018 17:38
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shirou is capable of human emotion and warmth and clearly expresses that towards people he cares about, kiritsugu fucks another woman behind his wife's back literally just because (it doesnt even make sense, kiritsugu seems so asexual but they throw in him loving maiyu because idk, it makes him seem cooler) and murders people because of high school philosophy questions. Like Kiritsugu and Shirou are both broken people but I literally have no read on Kiritsugu beyond his brokenness. Shirou likes cooking and tokusatsu shows, he's got a decent sense of humor even if he mostly plays up being the straight man, he gets competive and stubborn about some stuff, he has some kind of hobbies and interests. Kiritsugu is a married man in, what, his 30s, yet it feels like he's never had a single thought in his entire life. It's all air and bugs up there. Shirou isn't the most complex character in the world or anything but he has some kind of interior life, some sense of 'yeah, that's a human being' to him. Darth Walrus posted:Shirou being a selfish wannabe martyr is fine - the problem is the lack of outside perspective on who he helps and hurts by being that
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Oct 6, 2018 18:03
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Conspiratiorist posted:A young victim from a disaster gets thoroughly destroyed by survivor's guilt, losing his sense of self-worth, then fills in the void through admiration for his savior and deciding to dedicate himself to their childish/idealized vision of justice. That’s exactly what’s abstract about it - Shirou feels like a thought exercise more than a person. Part of it is the guff about his ideals being illegitimate because he was inspired by someone else, which has very little bearing on anything despite being the thing that the embodiment of his regrets and Gilgamesh of loving Babylon keep harping on about over and over. Like, you’re about to murder a loving city, why does it matter whether the guy trying to stop you inherited his moral code from someone else or not? Can’t a moral code you came up with on your own also be bad and incomplete? It’s the most bizarre antisocial quibble to get hung up on. The other part of it is that, again, it takes two stories which together are as long as War and loving Peace for the consequences of Shirou’s actions to anyone other than him to come into serious focus. Like, this whole story is about the ethics of selflessness, so why aren’t we focusing more on what that selflessness means for the people around him? He’s saved Fuyuki twice by the time Heaven’s Feel rolls around - aren’t we going to even consider how his discomfort with his own life balances against the thousands he’s just saved? Like, yeah, kid, you may not feel hugely satisfied with how saving all those people felt, but how’s little Tarou down the road going to feel about not getting his soul sucked out by an evil slime-god? Now, you may decide that the answer to that is ‘it doesn’t matter’, but can’t we at least entertain the counterargument for a bit? Fuyuki feels weirdly empty for a busy city, and I can’t help but suspect that’s because a broader view of the town and its people would make Shirou’s internal struggle seem much less sympathetic, but it does also rob his choices of a lot of their weight. That’s something I think Zero does better. Fuyuki’s residents may not be deeply characterised, but we receive constant reminders that they exist and are affected by the Holy Grail War. There’s Gilles and Ryuunosuke’s victims. There’s that couple that Waver pulls a mind-whammy on. There’s the JASDF getting involved during the battle in the bay. Even the cast being an ensemble means that we see the consequences of these obsessed weirdos’ actions on a wide range of people. Again, even if we don’t care about a particular character, we are encouraged to care about the characters they affect. Zero feels like a far less solipsistic story than Stay Night, and that makes it easier to get engaged in its philosophical debates because we know that who and what wins will matter to everyone else. Now, I suppose you could argue that Kiritsugu is a less realised character than Shirou, but I think that’s the point. He’s burnt out almost everything human about him, and only breaks down when he realises that he didn’t (and couldn’t) remove it all. He’s not as central as Shirou, so his characterisation is delivered negatively - everyone else has some human trait (or traits) that he lacks, and that’s what makes him special and weird. The big turnaround, of course, is that he isn’t a superhuman, he’s just running from humanity, and only gains happiness and some measure of grace by finally learning some empathy and starting to rejoin the human race after his inhuman shell has been entirely broken. He’s a key part of Zero’s broader statement on heroism. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 18:08
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perhaps you should engage in some thought exercises
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Oct 6, 2018 18:14
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Are Shirou's ideals really running up against reality? It feels more like they're running up against the fact that they're so vague that he can't really point to a specific thing they're pushing him to do.
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Oct 6, 2018 18:36
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Rand Brittain posted:Are Shirou's ideals really running up against reality? It feels more like they're running up against the fact that they're so vague that he can't really point to a specific thing they're pushing him to do. I mean, isn’t the whole thing in Heaven’s Feel that he starts having to make needs-of-the-many decisions about other people and handles it extremely poorly?
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Oct 6, 2018 18:43
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Following a sudden desire to watch more Fate after my last encouter was during the fansub days of fate/zero I spent some time watching Fate/Apocraphyhhurgkrgbrj. I really didn't like it very much. Specifically the leads. The servants were awesome for the most part. Good god were Astolfo and Sieg horrible. Jeanne occassionally joined them. On the other hand, I really liked the relationship between Mordred and her master and the way it grew. I also enjoyed Achilles and his talkswith Chiron and Atalante. I also watched the grand order movie, which I actually liked as well. Good action and watching a pretified Shinji get beheaded is a good bonus. Currently working on Fate/Extra Last Encore. So far at least the leads aren't trying to annoy me to death like Astolfo and Sieg were doing.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:26
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Good news, if you liked First Order (Caster Cu is the best!) they’re making a movie and series out of what are considered two of Grand Order’s best story chapters, Camelot and Babylon. NA/global FGO already has Camelot and will be getting Babylon in a couple months. Camelot was pretty dang good. I can’t wait for animated Bedivere.
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Oct 6, 2018 21:42
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Blockhouse posted:I walked away from Fate/Zero unable to give a flying gently caress about Kiritsugu I would follow a series about Waver, a kid from a new Mage family having to prove to the stuffy upper crust that he's worth something. Much more interesting and comprehensible premise than Red Hair's arc. Which Grand Order movie is good? Wikipedia is saying there's 2 by Lay-Duce, 1 by ufotable, and 2 by Production IG. Ccs fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Oct 6, 2018 |
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Oct 6, 2018 23:27
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The el melloi files
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Oct 6, 2018 23:34
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Good news, if you liked First Order (Caster Cu is the best!) they’re making a movie and series out of what are considered two of Grand Order’s best story chapters, Camelot and Babylon. caster cu is in neither of these btw
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