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If it involves Shiro being suddenly great at stuff I might not, unless they can somehow make it make sense for his skills to rapidly improve. With Rin it makes sense since she's been training her whole life at this stuff. Otherwise it will feel like a case of "gotta take the protagonist from 0 to 60 in 2 weeks cause the plot calls for it!"
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Oct 9, 2018 21:27
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Oh you’ll see. 
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Oct 9, 2018 21:28
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tbf shirou literally can only do one thing good in the first place and gets slightly better at it in most of the routes.
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Oct 9, 2018 21:30
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Shirou was actually left-handed all along.
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Oct 9, 2018 21:43
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Ccs posted:Okay I'm most of the way through the Unlimited Blade Works first season after approaching this series wrong by watching the Heaven's Feel movie first (although I had watched Fate Zero back in 2012 or so). This is more like it! Lots of good fights, which go on longer and look even better than the ones in Zero. A bit of stupidity in terms of letting bad guys escape and not finishing off other characters as a way to extend the plot and try to milk suspense but overall I'm enjoying it about the same as I did Fate Zero. I'll probably also enjoy the future Fate HF movies more after I finish watching this. At least you got to see best Assassin.
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Oct 9, 2018 23:49
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Ccs posted:If it involves Shiro being suddenly great at stuff I might not, unless they can somehow make it make sense for his skills to rapidly improve. With Rin it makes sense since she's been training her whole life at this stuff. Sadly Shirou's a bit of a cheater. There are reasons for it, but I don't remember how well they articulate them in the UBW anime version.
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Oct 9, 2018 23:58
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Also what’s the deal with Kirei? Is he an evil guy who struggled to figure out that he’s evil and then accepts it? Like is that all the motivation he has? “I like to see people die and suffer and I wish I could’ve killed my father because I’m evil”? Or is there some larger reason and motivation for his actions?
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Oct 10, 2018 02:19
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Kirei's deal (in an abridged explanation, I guess) is this: (spoilers, because that's the kind of chicken I am) He can only truly be happy by being a murderous, evil bastard, but he still has a conscience and because both that and the way he was raised, he understands that he's a fundamentally horrible person for enjoying doing evil deeds, but at the same time, it's the only way he gets any sort of feeling about anything. Once you get to the creamy center of Kirei, he's an interesting sumbitch. vvv e: Sort of what Endorph says, yeah. vvv Wark Say fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 02:37
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Ccs posted:Also what�s the deal with Kirei? Is he an evil guy who struggled to figure out that he�s evil and then accepts it? Like is that all the motivation he has? �I like to see people die and suffer and I wish I could�ve killed my father because I�m evil�?
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Oct 10, 2018 04:32
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Endorph posted:It's less that he's evil, more that he's a literal sociopath, in the psychological sense, and being raised strict catholic made him internalize that as him being pure evil. This. Kotomine lacks empathy and derives perverse pleasure from watching people suffer. However he's a very intelligent, extremely disciplined man with a penchant for deep thought and introspection. Thus, following the moral tenets of his upbringing, he devoted himself to anything he thought could give him a sense of purpose and fulfillment, on the hope of experiencing positive feelings the way normal people do. It didn't work. Unable to find traditional happiness, despair drove him to the point of suicide, and ultimately left him a hollow shell by the time of the 4th Grail War. Then the events there, and particularly the conclusion, answered without a doubt the question of what kind of person he was at his core. But his journey of self-discovery isn't over yet, for touching the Grail left him with more questions about the nature of his existence - you'll just have to read/watch Heavens Feel to see its conclusion.
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Oct 10, 2018 06:07
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Endorph posted:It's less that he's evil, more that he's a literal sociopath, in the psychological sense, and being raised strict catholic made him internalize that as him being pure evil. I thought it was more specific than that? He’s not just an empathy-devoid hedonist, he specifically only gains pleasure from hurting people.
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Oct 10, 2018 09:20
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if you google sociopath i s2g the first 10 descriptions are written by dudes super salty about their ex "a sociopath will LIE, AND SHE WILL STEA—they will steal, and"
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Oct 10, 2018 15:02
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Also, sociopaths have lousy executive functioning - they have difficulties planning and organising, and are highly impulsive. I'm really not sure that Kotomine's a sociopath - he's just got a bizarre and unfortunately specific combination of sadism and anhedonia.
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Oct 10, 2018 15:16
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I'm sorta concurrently watching Fate Zero for the second time and Fate UBW for the first since both are on Netflix and I got to the episode of Zero in the second season where Kiritsugu executes his plan to kill Lancer and his master and Saber gets really pissed with him because he interrupted the battle between knights and they have a little argument about heroics and battlefields being hell or not. I think this is one of the best parts of FZ. It's a very clear conversation without some of the haziness that exists in other discussions throughout the series. And I think most viewers would agree with Kiritsugu, battlefields suck and if there was a way to bring about world peace by wishing on a magic cup then that's totally worth killing a few jerk mages for. And heroes are kind of ridiculous glorifications of terrible violence. But I remember from my first watch through that things obviously don't turn out positively because the grail is corrupted. But so far there's nothing wrong with Kiritsugu's ideals. He wants world peace, he thinks the grail is a wish granter like a magic lamp and not a monkey's paw, so what he's doing is rational. It's kinda bullshit that the story pulls this bait and switch. "Sorry, the grail isn't what everybody told you it was because of something that happened in a previous War that nobody knew about! Sucks to be all of you guys! Have some evil mud instead!"
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Oct 10, 2018 16:07
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Ccs posted:I'm sorta concurrently watching Fate Zero for the second time and Fate UBW for the first since both are on Netflix and I got to the episode of Zero in the second season where Kiritsugu executes his plan to kill Lancer and his master and Saber gets really pissed with him because he interrupted the battle between knights and they have a little argument about heroics and battlefields being hell or not. Then again, consider the other magic we see in the series, and Kiritsugu's entire career as a mage-killer. He should have at least been aware that this massively powerful artefact powered by human sacrifice and fought over by monsters was not necessarily going to be a trustworthy force for good. His problem is, as the show points out, that his way of life is only decent and acceptable when measured against all the evils in the world, so he takes a giant, lunatic gamble to balance out his karma rather than just retiring and becoming a doctor or something.
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Oct 10, 2018 16:22
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Fate extra does set in a timeline where world peace is achieved through the rulership of one major family. They have to slow down technology and suppress some ideal to make it happen. No more magic helps a lot too. The grail would have to do something like that to make humanity eternally peaceful. Unless there is a way to do it without altering human nature or having a singular powerful benign rulership?
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Oct 10, 2018 16:24
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Actually even if the grail wasnt corrupted it probably wouldnt be able to realize Kiritsugus wish because (spoiler for Heavens Feel I think?) The completed grail is really just a massive reservoir of magical energy for your typical Mage to use to brute force their way to The Root. Any -wish-requires the user to know a way to use that massive pile of mana to realize their goal, so Dark Ilya/Angra wasnt really lying to Kiritsugu in a few spots Apostrophes and quotation marks being broken on the iPhone SA app sucks
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Oct 10, 2018 16:28
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Ccs posted:But I remember from my first watch through that things obviously don't turn out positively because the grail is corrupted. But so far there's nothing wrong with Kiritsugu's ideals. He wants world peace, he thinks the grail is a wish granter like a magic lamp and not a monkey's paw, so what he's doing is rational. It's kinda bullshit that the story pulls this bait and switch. "Sorry, the grail isn't what everybody told you it was because of something that happened in a previous War that nobody knew about! Sucks to be all of you guys! Have some evil mud instead!" Even if the grail wasn't corrupted, it was still a plot point that it couldn't grant a wish that was something the holder himself couldn't conceive of. Hypothetically, I think if Kiritsugu won a regular HGW, then I'd imagine the best he could do with access to the Root would be something like rewriting the laws of reality to cause a groundhog's day scenario anytime somebody did anything remotely bad. People would realize and start to abuse it. Maybe the worst offenders get an Origin Bullet out of nowhere. In the end, Foundation of Humanity declines, everything still burns.
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Oct 10, 2018 16:35
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Ccs posted:But I remember from my first watch through that things obviously don't turn out positively because the grail is corrupted. But so far there's nothing wrong with Kiritsugu's ideals. He wants world peace, he thinks the grail is a wish granter like a magic lamp and not a monkey's paw, so what he's doing is rational. It's kinda bullshit that the story pulls this bait and switch. "Sorry, the grail isn't what everybody told you it was because of something that happened in a previous War that nobody knew about! Sucks to be all of you guys! Have some evil mud instead!" The problem isn't that it was corrupted - which is certainly a problem, mind you, but it could still perform its functions more or less as normal - the problem is the core functioning logic of the grail. See, skipping much elaboration on the war/ritual, the grail is a system that takes Heroic Spirit souls and processes them into absurd quantities of magical energy, which it then uses to power a wish-granting mechanism. What said wish-granting mechanism is, is a magical trait (that used to be) possessed by the Einzberns which allows one to skip any required thaumaturgical processes to manifest whatever phenomenon the user desires. Its intended purpose, as devised by the three families, was to gather 7 heroic souls and use them to open a path to the Root, but only 6 are enough for most other purposes. Now the issues is, sure it can make anything you want happen, but it has to be something you can visualize. Kiritsugu fumbled because he realized he had no idea what world peace, true world peace, should be like. Or rather, the only way he could envision it, and that the grail was all too happy to grant, was the most terrible poo poo possible (kill everyone). The grail developed a malignant intelligence due to its corruption and as a result started playing favorites in its master and servant picks, but ultimately the failure of the whole enterprise was on Kiritsugu, and not so much because the Grail was an evil monkey's paw. ED: for reference, the main antagonist of Fate/Apocrypha had a similar goal of eliminating human suffering, but unlike Kiritsugu he had in-depth understanding of the exact functionings of the Grail and decades to plan, so he had a clear wish in mind: turn all of humanity into immortal pseudo-servants. It carried its own set of complicated issues of course, but nobody could argue it wasn't a plan. Note I'm in no way endorsing anyone to watch F/A; it isn't worth it. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Oct 10, 2018 |
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Oct 10, 2018 16:37
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Yeah but is the wish-haver expected to know that the grail will need them to do all the planning for how the wish will work? It's a magical powerful artifact. It just seems like a bait and switch on the audience. After all the reason you're using a magical artifact to do the work for you is because it's too difficult to do without it. I dunno, I just can't place the blame on Kiritsugu cause he expects the wish granter to be better at its job than it is. Otherwise he'd probably have come with a detailed powerpoint for how to make world peace feasible.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:23
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Ccs posted:Yeah but is the wish-haver expected to know that the grail will need them to do all the planning for how the wish will work? It's a magical powerful artifact. It just seems like a bait and switch on the audience. After all the reason you're using a magical artifact to do the work for you is because it's too difficult to do without it. He can't though as his mindset at that point is too rigid to accept the fact that he could be wrong. Hell, the guy is a complete idiot from the get go as all it would have taken to win the war was giving the scabbard to Saber and let her tear through everyone else.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:27
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I imagine the root would look up the whole history of earth and all the magical method to come up with something. Like how this power could had end world hunger if the owner have use it this way, etc.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:32
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Like the wish grafter being an evil prick hasn't been a surprise since the literal story entitled Monkey's Paw. You generally want to have some point to the wish twisting or at least make the end results interesting in an of themselves. Just saying that the twist is internally consistent with a dumb magic system doesn't do either of those things. Ideally the way the wish it twisted tells you just as much about the wisher or the wish granter as the wish they attempted to make. Even the Wishmaster movies, shlocky as they were, made the whole point weaseling your way out of the genie killing you.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:35
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Ccs posted:Yeah but is the wish-haver expected to know that the grail will need them to do all the planning for how the wish will work? It's a magical powerful artifact. It just seems like a bait and switch on the audience. After all the reason you're using a magical artifact to do the work for you is because it's too difficult to do without it. But it does do all the work for you. It even reads your mind rather than asking you to eloquently articulate your wish, but it can't give you what you want if you have no idea what you want. Kiritsugu's wish was too abstract, too childishly idealistic. That's the culmination of his character story - his heart's desire being too vague and impossible to reconcile with reality. Even with all the power in the world at his fingertips he couldn't make it happen, because he himself didn't believe it possible. Had the Grail not been corrupted it'd have been able to more neutrally arbitrate his thought process instead of egging him to choose the darkest possible approximation of his desire, but in the end all Kiritsugu could do was make the cold, pragmatic choice one last time before giving up on his dreams altogether.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:47
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Conspiratiorist posted:But it does do all the work for you. No it doesn't. It's limited by what your can think up. If I were a mathematician and I wished for the grail to figure out the solution to a difficult but solvable problem, the grail would go "lol, but you can't figure it out so I can't grant that wish." Yeah thanks rubbish wish chalice, that's the reason I was trying to use you to solve it.
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Oct 10, 2018 17:51
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FZ is a prequel. The grail being evil isn't intended to be a twist to the intended audience who already know it's evil from FSN. One of the big ideas of the series is that chasing some big, simplistic ideal is harmful and will not work out for you, so having the grail as a horrible poisoned chalice makes sense from that perspective.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:09
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Ccs posted:No it doesn't. It's limited by what your can think up. If I were a mathematician and I wished for the grail to figure out the solution to a difficult but solvable problem, the grail would go "lol, but you can't figure it out so I can't grant that wish." No, it'd quite literally brute force the solution and give it to you, because you're asking for something concrete, and that's exactly what's its built to do. Kiritsugu instead came up to the grail with an unsolvable problem - there was no satisfactory answer to the question of world peace with the parameters he provided, namely his own worldview. It's not how it was presented because the concept of Kiritsugu is a man extremely set in his ways rather than just being ignorant, but imagine instead that the Grail had presented to him a thousand different reality-warping methods to achieve permanent world peace, through tyranny, through altering the fundamental nature of man, etc, and he just looked at all of them and said "no, this is not what I want." After all, what he sought wasn't some external truth, but an extremely subjective conclusion.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:12
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But the grail is built to reach the root because other mage can’t figure it out?
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Oct 10, 2018 18:24
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Nyaa posted:But the grail is built to reach the root because other mage can’t figure it out? Exactly. It's built to hand out solutions, entirely skipping the method to get to them. This is what happened with Kotomine, whose wish is implied to have been "I want to find happiness", but was left unsatisfied because he got instant (though exceptional) gratification but what he should've asked for was a better understanding of himself so he could find it on his own. But when it came to Kerry's "I wish for world peace", it looked into his heart and went "oh, well, about that... this is what you think world peace means." And Kerry divided by zero.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:42
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Nyaa posted:But the grail is built to reach the root because other mage can’t figure it out? The Grail isn't using its wish granting power to pull that off. It's basically trying to jam a hand on the door that was opened when the heroic souls it summoned return back to where they came from. Once the door to the source of reality is open the controlling magus can walk in, snoop around and come back.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:49
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Ah, right. I forgot that’s what the mage actually intended it to do.
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Oct 10, 2018 18:59
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In UBW is anyone actually trying to do that? Rin has forgotten what the original purpose was since her father died before he could tell here. Shirou doesn't know WTF. The Eizenbern girl maybe wants to still do that? Everyone else is a bunch of randos.
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Oct 10, 2018 19:25
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Only the Einzberns. Well, the Matous kinda sorta.
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Oct 10, 2018 19:34
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Ccs posted:In UBW is anyone actually trying to do that? Rin has forgotten what the original purpose was since her father died before he could tell here. Shirou doesn't know WTF. The Eizenbern girl maybe wants to still do that? Everyone else is a bunch of randos. Nobody is prepared for the war as everybody thought that there was another 40 years before the next one would kick off.
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Oct 10, 2018 19:37
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Only the Tohsaka were still searching the Root. The Einzbern just want the ritual to succeed, and Zouken cares only about immortality.
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Oct 10, 2018 19:54
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YggdrasilTM posted:The Einzbern just want the ritual to succeed The Einzberns want the ritual to succeed because they want to reach the Root so they can reacquire the Third Magic.
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Oct 10, 2018 20:49
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It annoys me that a series with so many good ideas is so badly written. Thank god for ufotable rescuing such an embarrassing source material.
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Oct 10, 2018 21:13
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Have I been rused by a Terrible Opinions alt?
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Oct 10, 2018 21:15
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Ccs posted:It annoys me that a series with so many good ideas is so badly written. Thank god for ufotable rescuing such an embarrassing source material. ?????
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Oct 10, 2018 21:25
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Ccs posted:It annoys me that a series with so many good ideas is so badly written. Thank god for ufotable rescuing such an embarrassing source material. 
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Oct 10, 2018 21:25
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