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I think part of it is that he describes the pain, adrenaline, and fear that characters have while they're in combat. Tsukihime and Kagetsu Tohya was definitely rough in terms of writing and more on the horror side, but like, the visceral descriptions of the combat and gore are really fun. Also when our protags go absolutely batshit. That and also, there's some effective writing when it comes to emotional pain. Camelot chapter of FGO had it in spades; like I felt for Bedivere's tiring journey through different worlds as he searched and searched for the Lion King and having to go up against the knights and really being hard on himself for his weakness and cowardice and being the cause for Arturia/Lion King going full divine tyrant. Compendium fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 06:15
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Compendium posted:That and also, there's some effective writing when it comes to emotional pain. Camelot chapter of FGO had it in spades; like I felt for Bedivere's tiring journey through different worlds as he searched and searched for the Lion King and having to go up against the knights and really being hard on himself for his weakness and cowardice and being the cause for Arturia/Lion King going full divine tyrant. Yeah I just finished Camelot and it was really good and kept on making me question if this was really just a mobile game
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Oct 11, 2018 10:24
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Conspiratiorist posted:Have I been rused by a Terrible Opinions alt? Snooze Cruise posted:I have had several conversations where I talk about how frustrating Zero is because its just a constant parade of annoying dudes talking down to Saber and telling her how wrong she is, where the other person is like "Well, she is wrong though..." edit: also a lot of talk about repetition in the VN's writing seems to be couched in a belief that this is a problem of cultural differences. I really don't think it is. Japanese media outside of anime and VN's is more or less free of that sort of pointless repetition and Western fantasy/nerd fiction is similarly filled with it. The problem is being amateur nerd fiction without an editor, not some deep divide in cultural expectations of fiction. Terrible Opinions fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 10:48
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Im pretty sure Saber has a few lines in that scene in the VN, but the focus of that scene is Shirou and Archers conflict, so there being an entire aside with Saber wouldnt have really fit.
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Oct 11, 2018 11:19
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I'd be a lot more willing to accept that if Shirou didn't have so much difficulty refuting a whole bunch of really shallow whining. You'd she'd give him a tag out.
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Oct 11, 2018 11:25
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That's kind of the idea of the story though, neither Shirou nor Archer are really that well-spoken or introspective people. The UBW anime kind of makes it seem that way by having them actually try and debate philosophy during their fight some (and have them go off to weird magic unlimited blade works wasteland) so I can get why you'd feel that way, but the idea is that Archer yells at Shirou, they have a totally normal, barebones swordfight with no magic, Archer realizes that Shirou is just trying to live the best way he can for the sake of people he cares about, he gives up on the whole thing. Since they're literally the same person, it's best compared to a depressive person having an argument with themselves in their own head. That's something that's, obviously, more based on feeling than any kind of coherent logic. Shirou and Archer's conflict is an emotional one more than a philosophical one, the philosophies just serve to emphasize their emotions.
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Oct 11, 2018 11:29
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Well I hope it comes across that way once i get to that point in the VN, but the anime adaptation just made it a slog by deciding it had to be one of those huge skip the intro music level fights and blocking it as a fight rather than any more introspective struggle.
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Oct 11, 2018 11:36
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I've said this before, but I consider UBW fundamentally unadaptable because of that whole scene in the VN, and well ufotable didn't prove me wrong, though they didn't do it any favors either by dragging it out across three episodes. Easily the worst part of the anime.
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Oct 11, 2018 11:48
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There are a lot of individual parts/moments that are adapted well (or even improved) in the UBW anime but it still ultimately falters as a VN alternative, and much of that comes from the endgame scenes such as Shirou vs. Archer.
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Oct 11, 2018 11:57
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On the other hand they've been adapting HF really well so far, capturing that dread aspect perfectly so I hope the later 2 movies retain that high quality
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Oct 11, 2018 12:13
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Well, it remains to be seen what they do with the later parts of heaven's feel. Part 1 was excellent but the first half of the UBW anime was a much better adaptation than the second half.
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Oct 11, 2018 12:18
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Likely the only hf I'm going to actually end up seeing is the 3rd. Most of the route is kind of a mess but absolutely everything that happens that last stretch is the sickest
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Oct 11, 2018 13:45
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The first movie was very good.
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Oct 11, 2018 13:49
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The biggest question for the Heaven's Feel movies is whether or not they'll do anything with Sparks Liner High.
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Oct 11, 2018 14:04
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W.T. Fits posted:The biggest question for the Heaven's Feel movies is whether or not they'll do anything with Sparks Liner High. I'm gonna bet they might make a BD extra of it, but that's about it.
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Oct 11, 2018 14:15
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I hope they do nothing with it. It's just a random bad end, same as any of the others.
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Oct 11, 2018 14:23
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Late UBW was greatly hampered by poor fight choreography and editing in the two most climactic segments. The two that come to mind right now are cutting away right as the energy of the scene builds up and terrible use of space undermining the scene itself. The scene where Shirou overcomes his doubts and proclaims his ideals as beautiful? That's supposed to be matched with a constant advance, parrying the swords coming his way. Except there's cuts where he ends up further away than where he began, making everything wonky. (This was written off memory, I may have gotten some details wrong, but I'm pretty sure the emotional gist of it is correct) YggdrasilTM posted:Nah, the second, third and fourth magic were created as methods to reach the Root, not as results of reaching it. The ritual IS the Third Magic. --- I just had a thought: FZ had a bunch of women dying to fuel Kerry's manpain, right. Urobuchi's next work is PMMM, where a bunch of girls suffer to fuel Homura's girlpain. I'm not sure what that says about him but it was worth a  .
Kyte fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 14:48
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Yea, I've seen the argument made elsewhere that Urobuchi accidentally wrote good female chars in Madoka because he literally didn't have a choice.
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Oct 11, 2018 15:15
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Endorph posted:imo basing your impressions of someone's abilities as a writer, like in a base wording/prose sense, based off a terrible fan translation isnt very smart To be fair, Nasu had been a subject of ridicule for his prose in Japan up until Hollow Atraxia / DDD. And you can probably make out the difference even with fan translations.
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Oct 11, 2018 15:22
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taser rates posted:Yea, I've seen the argument made elsewhere that Urobuchi accidentally wrote good female chars in Madoka because he literally didn't have a choice. I think he did OK with Akane in Psycho-Pass, and while the other female members of the team didn't get much screentime, they at least got to be cool and competent whenever they showed up. Unfortunately, they turned the franchise over to a literal wifebeater in S2, and it kind of showed. Outside that, yeah, there's a bit of a shortage of good, well-handled female characters in his work, and it's definitely something he could work on improving.
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Oct 11, 2018 15:30
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rvm posted:To be fair, Nasu had been a subject of ridicule for his prose in Japan up until Hollow Atraxia / DDD. And you can probably make out the difference even with fan translations. Ridicule in what aspect exactly?
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Oct 11, 2018 15:39
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Kyte posted:Ridicule in what aspect exactly? Basically, for his purple prose, pretentiousness, unnatural dialog, etc. F/HA and DDD improved on all these aspects. Someone with decent knowledge of Japanese and familiarity with eroge circles can correct me if I'm wrong, since it is a second-hand information. But even in my subjective experience, trying to re-read F/SN after F/HA was... rough. DDD is weird, because the first volume is basically self-indulgent wankery employing various story-telling techniques and narrative tricks which made translation inherently awkward. Like, it feels like the dude enjoyed writing it and didn't give a slightest of fucks whether anyone else would actually read it (other then Takeuchi, of course). I think, there was a narration in there with multiple layers of unreliability or something like that. I don't remember much of it, to be honest. The second volume is rock solid, however, and I wish ufotable animated Sinker vs. Slugger arc, it's by far the best thing Nasu has written, and it's very cinematic for the lack of a better word, but that'll probably never happen. rvm fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 16:03
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taser rates posted:Yea, I've seen the argument made elsewhere that Urobuchi accidentally wrote good female chars in Madoka because he literally didn't have a choice.
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Oct 11, 2018 16:05
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Rodyle posted:Likely the only hf I'm going to actually end up seeing is the 3rd. Most of the route is kind of a mess but absolutely everything that happens that last stretch is the sickest The first film was good, and 20% new material that better contextualizes Shirou and Sakura's relationship. Darth Walrus posted:I think he did OK with Akane in Psycho-Pass, and while the other female members of the team didn't get much screentime, they at least got to be cool and competent whenever they showed up. Unfortunately, they turned the franchise over to a literal wifebeater in S2, and it kind of showed. Akane is cool and good. When Makishima does the thing I thought it'd be a 'break the cutie' moment but nope, she handles it like a pro, and consistently demonstrates far more emotional intelligence than every single other character in the series. Which is itself consistent with the stated reason for her assignment to the Bureau. I was impressed, and on re-watch of the redone version I confirmed how she was always like that, despite my initial impression of her being just the token rookie pacifist. Girl is rock loving solid.
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Oct 11, 2018 16:21
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Kyte posted:
The Einzbern don't care about saving the world. They are litteraly a selfperpetuating homunculi factory that want to realize it's own purpose, a perfect homunculus that can use Heaven's Feel.
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Oct 11, 2018 19:53
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YggdrasilTM posted:The Einzbern don't care about saving the world. They are litteraly a selfperpetuating homunculi factory that want to realize it's own purpose, a perfect homunculus that can use Heaven's Feel. And they want Heaven's Feel so they can Save The World™. Otherwise they'd've been fine when they made Justeaze. Problem was she couldn't achieve their objectives because she couldn't use the third magic at the scale and speed they needed. However, note that I'm using capitals and the trademark symbol for a reason. What I'm saying is that their endgame is the same as what Amakusa tried to do in Apocrypha because that's what they think "saving the world" is, without an understanding of what that actually implies because as you said they're just a cute robot factory. Kyte fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 21:14
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Endorph posted:I hope they do nothing with it. It's just a random bad end, same as any of the others.
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Oct 11, 2018 21:22
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Endorph posted:It's just a random bad end, same as any of the others. Except it's not a bad end. If you get that ending, the game closes out with a card that just says "END" instead of "BAD END" or "DEAD END" like the bad endings do. The following Tiger Dojo even praises Shirou a bit before it gets down to telling you what you should have done to avoid getting the ending, and even then, the feeling of that Tiger Dojo is less "Hey, you screwed up, you idiot" and more, "Hey, you're almost to the grand finale! Just go back and do one thing differently!" That doesn't necessarily mean it deserves to be in the movies themselves, but as someone else said, it would still be neat to see it as a "deleted scene" or "alternate cut" kind of feature on the blue-ray release. W.T. Fits fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Oct 11, 2018 |
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Oct 11, 2018 21:56
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either make it the ending to the film or don't make it at all.
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Oct 11, 2018 23:10
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Ccs posted:It's a bit hyperbolic but as a work of fiction the Fate VN is probably on par with a book like The Name of the Wind as far as wish-fulfillment mage character, overwrought and overlong prose, and misogynistic portrayals of female characters. Fate is misogynistic now. The worst writing and most heinous misogyny. sort of related, my favorite part of that review is it ends with "Grade: A". e: forgot which ending it was, nevermind that part. Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Oct 12, 2018 |
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Oct 12, 2018 16:30
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Sparks Liner High is an exciting and neat moment that is the culmination of learning a lot of little (and obviously not so little) tidbits about the characters involved and as far as dead ends go it's a lot more interesting than the usual "well that was a dumb way to go, well here's Taiga/Illya for some fun." But beyond this it does not serve much of a narrative purpose and even as an OVA extra short I'm not sure how it could work. At least it's not Mind of Steel, though.
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Oct 12, 2018 16:37
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all im saying is if they're animating dead ends they should animate the one where shirou strips issei
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Oct 12, 2018 17:19
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Endorph posted:all im saying is if they're animating dead ends they should animate the one where shirou strips issei Um, excuse me, that's good end.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:20
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Endorph posted:all im saying is if they're animating dead ends they should animate the one where shirou strips issei I thought they had already done that in UBW.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:24
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Stripping Issei is specifically the choice that avoids the Dead End.
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Oct 12, 2018 17:26
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Cuntellectual posted:Fate is misogynistic now. Yeah, she liked the adaptions. I also like the adaptions. Honestly I shouldn't have talked about the VN since I have only played through 3/4ths of the Fate route and I don't think I'm a fan of how VNs tell stories in general.
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Oct 12, 2018 18:29
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Ccs posted:Yeah, she liked the adaptions. I also like the adaptions. Honestly I shouldn't have talked about the VN since I have only played through 3/4ths of the Fate route and I don't think I'm a fan of how VNs tell stories in general. I don't see how the reviewer, or you, could get the takeaway that FSN is misogynistic.
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Oct 12, 2018 19:07
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Endorph posted:all im saying is if they're animating dead ends they should animate the one where shirou strips issei just do a 13 episode series on that bad end where medea dissects shirou and actually wins the grail war.
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Oct 12, 2018 19:30
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There's some stuff in the Fate route that is very weird. It might not exist in the other routes, but partway through the Fate route Shirou hears how his friend Mitsuzuri was molested. His response is basically "Oh, it'll teach her femininity." This is immediately followed by a section in the dojo with Saber where's she's so submissive to Shirou, asking his opinion on what she should be wearing, whether she should be in armor cause they're gonna be swordfighting, and he's like "you're a girl, wear girl's clothes." Maybe this is standard teenage boy flaws or rudeness. Or maybe it doesn't seem odd in Japan. And maybe he pays for these opinions in other routes.I was nope-ing pretty hard by the end of that section though. I also just don't like the relationship between Shirou and Saber. They went out of their way to make king arthur a girl and stop her aging through magic so that the highschool protagonist would be able to be in a relationship with his Servant. There's some weird power dynamics at play there, considering he's basically her employer during this war, so it's like he's taking advantage of her. I also just find it unbelievable that Saber would be interested in someone so young. Even if she's physically 16 she's mentally much older. So you end up with weird power dynamics going both ways. The ufotable aspects sidestep this stuff by having only adapted the parts where Shirou is with girls his own age who are not in an employment relationship with him. Rin is also not submissive at all towards him in the anime which is refreshing. When Saber and Shirou train in the dojo there's none of that submissive stuff, she's more confident and self-assured. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting these scenes or the character relationships.
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Oct 12, 2018 19:40
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Cuntellectual posted:I don't see how the reviewer, or you, could get the takeaway that FSN is misogynistic. If you play JUST the Fate route, where Shirou constantly talks about how Arturia shouldn't fight because she's a girl, complaints along those lines should be expected (there's a throwaway line regarding Mitsuzuri that doesn't help in this regard either). He doesn't precisely mean them that way, but the Fate route itself doesn't necessarily expound on the true reasons behind it particularly well. The way Rin is treated even in the first route should be an indicator that this isn't necessarily true, but she's not as central as in the other two routes so someone missing that in their moral outrage can at least be vaguely understood. On the other hand, anyone who's actually read significant amounts of UBW and Heaven's Feel and is still claiming that is being willfully obtuse and should just be ignored.
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Oct 12, 2018 20:00
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