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I mean it's perfectly acceptable to say you're turned off by something being misogynistic even if it isn't misogynistic 100% of the time. Just like it's perfectly acceptable to say you're turned off by the racism in how Conan stories characterize certain ethnicities even if those characterizations generally go away the later you get in Conan. It's not a personal attack on you for liking them nor is it meant to devalue those later parts.
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Oct 12, 2018 20:16
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The author does agree shirou x saber isn’t realistic. quote:Gen Urobuchi believes Saber's relationship with Shirou doesn't seem like a realistic relationship between a male and a female, but a complicated relationship with a boy who became a girl. He further explains that it is not a relationship fueled by instinct like the relationship between a man and a woman, but a romance of logic between two people who need each other from the heart. He thinks the Fate route could have been told as a story through the ancient Greek views on love quote:Kinoko Nasu finds it difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman... It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time
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Oct 12, 2018 20:41
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saber and mordred are trans icons
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Oct 12, 2018 20:46
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Wasn’t that line Shirou has about Ayako deliberate modified/”punched up” by the dumbass that translated that section? I’ve heard a few other areas have some “creative translations” but that’s the only one I’ve hear mentioned several times. Of course this could just be a bullshit rumor that people (including me) keep paroting.
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Oct 12, 2018 20:47
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Either way, ubw have none of those issue you found and remain the best way to experience the final battle.
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Oct 12, 2018 20:49
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Stairmaster posted:saber and mordred are trans icons
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Oct 12, 2018 21:01
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Wasn’t that line Shirou has about Ayako deliberate modified/”punched up” by the dumbass that translated that section? If I remember correctly, that occasion is Shirou manifesting his "traditional japanese husewife" side. Also, the meaning of the sentence is not "being molested will teach her some femminility" and more something like "if she was so strong to not even scared by being molested, it would have meant that she was completely devoid of femminility" YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 12, 2018 |
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Oct 12, 2018 21:24
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Terrible Opinions posted:I mean it's perfectly acceptable to say you're turned off by something being misogynistic even if it isn't misogynistic 100% of the time. Just like it's perfectly acceptable to say you're turned off by the racism in how Conan stories characterize certain ethnicities even if those characterizations generally go away the later you get in Conan. It's not a personal attack on you for liking them nor is it meant to devalue those later parts. I mean, it's not like being misogynistic is an unrealistic character flaw. Nyaa posted:The author does agree shirou x saber isn’t realistic. See: Fate/Prototype. That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging Saber to embrace femininity. It's not like she thinks she's a man, she just felt she had to be a man to be respected as a leader because of the views she was instilled with by her idiot rapist father and co. Terrible Opinions posted:The simplification of Mordred's plot via magic handwavium and the removal of a lot of the weird drama/sex stuff from Camelot always seemed weird to me for Fate. You'd think anime as it is it would embrace that sort of thing. What removal? Cuntellectual fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Oct 13, 2018 |
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Oct 13, 2018 00:11
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Cuntellectual posted:
probably means mordred being the product of incest between arthur and morgan le fey/morgause which in various stories took place either via mistaken identity (mallory) or sorcerous deception (a lot of modern arthuriana) mordred being a homonculus in Fate lets you skip over a lot of complicated shenanigans, and avoids addressing why saber would knock up her half-sister basically it is a tad funny that the guy writing a weird sex game would cut most of the weird sex stuff out of the arthurian mythos material he was borrowing from PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Oct 13, 2018 |
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Oct 13, 2018 00:29
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Ccs posted:There's some stuff in the Fate route that is very weird. It might not exist in the other routes, but partway through the Fate route Shirou hears how his friend Mitsuzuri was molested. His response is basically "Oh, it'll teach her femininity." I mean, you did realize that immediately after everybody at the table called him out for saying something dumb like that right. Saying that a story shows a character saying some things shown explicitly by the narrative to be wrong means that the story itself supports these things is nonsensical. (And even then later showcases that these things were just way for the character to hide how they truly feel from themselves)
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Oct 13, 2018 00:33
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PupsOfWar posted:probably means mordred being the product of incest between arthur and morgan le fey/morgause Arturia did in fact get a penis for a spell (Merlin, don't ask), and Mordred is the product of her sperm obtained via seduction by Morgan.
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Oct 13, 2018 01:38
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Wasn’t that line Shirou has about Ayako deliberate modified/”punched up” by the dumbass that translated that section?
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Oct 13, 2018 02:25
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Conspiratiorist posted:Arturia did in fact get a penis for a spell (Merlin, don't ask), and Mordred is the product of her sperm obtained via seduction by Morgan. I recall she was bedonged for a while, but I thought they had glossed over exactly how Morgan obtained the material
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Oct 13, 2018 02:26
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Yeah I was referring to Arthur being down to pound generally and thus accidentally incest version. I guess sexually active bisexual/lesbian girl Arthur was just a bit too wild or a ride. I can naturally understand avoiding the whole magical date rape version like happened in the Once and Future King.
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Oct 13, 2018 03:02
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Terrible Opinions posted:Yeah I was referring to Arthur being down to pound generally and thus accidentally incest version. I guess sexually active bisexual/lesbian girl Arthur was just a bit too wild or a ride.
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Oct 13, 2018 03:08
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and yet none of the bad ends are "well Shirou you didn't make a move, so I took ya girl"
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Oct 13, 2018 03:14
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the only person willing to do such a thing is shinji and thats a nonstarter
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Oct 13, 2018 03:15
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Rin keeps Saber in UBW Good End.
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Oct 13, 2018 03:16
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Terrible Opinions posted:and yet none of the bad ends are "well Shirou you didn't make a move, so I took ya girl"
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Oct 13, 2018 03:17
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Dr Pepper posted:I mean, you did realize that immediately after everybody at the table called him out for saying something dumb like that right. No? He says the line and then Rin starts talking about a classmate and then breakfast stuff. Which makes sense if the original japanese line is actually something benign. Sucks that the translator added such a weird twist to it.
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Oct 13, 2018 03:20
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Endorph posted:eventually, an artoria marries nightingale nightingale is the one who does the marrying in that releationship
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Oct 13, 2018 03:23
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Endorph posted:i mean she's clearly into irisviel in fate/zero and rin in f/sn i mean the question isn't whether saber is queer (im not sure what you'd call her but it ain't straight), but how she would end up boning down w/ her sinister vamp half-sibling arthur stories have handled this in various ways in mallory, they have a youthful fling before arthur has been crowned king, been married, or been made aware that morgause (iirc that uses morgause rather than morgan in this role) is his sibling. People in older arthuriana are generally more DTF since it's kludged together from assorted celtic myths and french lais, two very horny literary traditions. in T.H. white, morgan date-rapes arthur with magic. this is used in the Boorman film and is probably what most people are familiar with now. It's pretty gross, the main reason it's there I reckon is as a parallel to uther's earlier rape of morgan's mother, ygraine. Some modern stuff (like the show from a few years back, with katie mcgrath as morgan) runs with actual romantic tension between morgan and arthur my guess is the fate crew just did not want to pick between the various implications there, and thus have not specified they might have been in a bind since the arthur that saber is most like is probably the one from Idylls, who is not DTF iirc Idylls also doesn't address where exactly Mordred came from Tennyson was not gonna go around writing sex freak shenanigans PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 13, 2018 |
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Oct 13, 2018 03:30
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T H White still has Morgause as the mother, you basically only get Morgan as Modred's mom in stories that consolidate the two completely into a single character. Which also sidesteps Gawain, Agravain, and co being Arthur's nephews.
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Oct 13, 2018 03:40
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Fate's kinda weird in that aspect since Agravain makes reference to him being related to Morgan and Gawain makes reference to him being related to Agravain but they never square that circle, and neither of them talk about being related to Arthur I'm pretty sure. I'd have to reread Camelot to be sure, though.
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Oct 13, 2018 03:45
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Endorph posted:Fate's kinda weird in that aspect since Agravain makes reference to him being related to Morgan and Gawain makes reference to him being related to Agravain but they never square that circle, and neither of them talk about being related to Arthur I'm pretty sure. I'd have to reread Camelot to be sure, though. i guess this is the basic issue with doing the All Myths Are True thing now that I think about it, it's sorta weird that a series that likes to play around hip-deep in fraught gender politics like Fate has not done more with Morgan goddamn Le Fay of all people like Medea, one of the originators of the Conniving Female Sorceress villain archetype like Medea, partially reclaimed over the years as a feminist icon i'm sure she comes up more in some of the myriad spinoffs I have not consumed, but the parallels with Medea alone you'd think would warrant more Morgan references in the base fate material
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Oct 13, 2018 03:52
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honestly they're really cagey about morgan for whatever reason even in later stuff. she's only ever shown onscreen very briefly in the apocrypha anime in one of mordred's flashbacks, and briefly in garden of avalon stealing caliburn from arturia. I don't think she ever gets a line of dialogue in either. maybe it has to do with the weird incest bomb, or maybe they wanted to save her for something big but they still aren't sure what.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:00
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Iirc Medusa's backstory is similarly wiped of any sort of sexual elements, which is weird as hell.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:02
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In Extella Nero claims she's a virgin, which errrrrr
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Oct 13, 2018 04:12
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Pureauthor posted:In Extella Nero claims she's a virgin, which errrrrr Nero is literally whatever she finds more "romantic" to be, adjusted to whatever cultural values she chose to be summoned to.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:13
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Pureauthor posted:In Extella Nero claims she's a virgin, which errrrrr That or she means physically, since a servant's body is from a specific point in time, or at least based on what they 'should' be at that point in time.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:13
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Iirc Medusa's backstory is similarly wiped of any sort of sexual elements, which is weird as hell. I wouldn’t say that, I think it’s very implied, same wrt her sisters, and I think it’s a huge part of her bond with Sakura that comes out in how she imprints on her, without the VNs having to spell it out
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Oct 13, 2018 04:18
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i'm pretty sure they kept the rape by poseidon thing in there.
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Oct 13, 2018 04:32
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Presumably she has normal hair rather than snakes out of cowardice.
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Oct 13, 2018 05:10
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I quite liked the approach of not having been cursed into a monster, but having been cursed into people thinking of her as a monster, with the actual eventual transformation being a result of getting consumed by loathing and bloodlust in her struggle to keep men away from her sisters. That her sisters weren't innocent maidens, but rather little monsters that relentlessly bullied her, is the perfect cherry on top.
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Oct 13, 2018 06:44
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The Gorgon triplets are each in deep need of a small army of therapists.
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Oct 13, 2018 08:30
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Morgan says a few things to Mordred in apoTerrible Opinions posted:Presumably she has normal hair rather than snakes out of cowardice. in hollow ataraxia her hair is kind of snakelike in one scene. snake hair is mostly relegated to gorgon
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Oct 13, 2018 12:47
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Eh I'm just kvetching about one of my pet bugaboos; which is fiction that has the freedom to make its characters look however it likes settling on humans or things that look like humans in light makeup. Especially when the source material says they should look stranger. Fate isn't as bad as say Supernatural but it's still pretty bad about it.
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Oct 13, 2018 12:54
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Terrible Opinions posted:I mean it's perfectly acceptable to say you're turned off by something being misogynistic even if it isn't misogynistic 100% of the time. Just like it's perfectly acceptable to say you're turned off by the racism in how Conan stories characterize certain ethnicities even if those characterizations generally go away the later you get in Conan. It's not a personal attack on you for liking them nor is it meant to devalue those later parts. Is it really fair to call part of a work misogynistic if a character espouses an opinion not meant to be correct, and is shown to be wrong throughout the rest of the work? I feel the Conan comparison isn't very apt here.
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Oct 13, 2018 16:22
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It's all in how that is communicated to the audience and whether or not it's actually shown to be wrong, or just absent in the later part of the story. Though that main character that seems to have been a point of contention here was since been claimed to be an invention of the fan translator so this could all be moot.
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Oct 13, 2018 16:38
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 14:05 |
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If people have to dig for double-digit hours to get through the first layer, then what’s in the first layer is a genuine problem, yes.
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Oct 13, 2018 18:10
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