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NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015

Unsinkabear posted:

XPS-havers, how do you like your fingerprint scanners? This one on the X1 Extreme is giving me trouble about 50% of the time.

My first setup wasn't working every time, so I rescanned my finger and it's doing much better.

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Tsyni
Sep 1, 2004
Lipstick Apathy
I was joking too. I'm sorry, chums.

Dr. Despair
Nov 4, 2009


39 perfect posts with each roll.

NewFatMike posted:

My first setup wasn't working every time, so I rescanned my finger and it's doing much better.

This and updating the driver/bios made my XPS from flaky to perfect every time

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Unsinkabear posted:

XPS-havers, how do you like your fingerprint scanners? This one on the X1 Extreme is giving me trouble about 50% of the time.

Working fine off a clean install with manual drivers installation. The only time it fails is when I'm sliding my finger over the button which is not its fault.

Honestly I'm still not used to how snappy it is, too used to slower phone scanners. :v:

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

There's always going to be a non zero chance that someone has baked in a backdoor to your device. Cisco has been doing a years long audit and finding tons of them in their own products, they announce new backdoors every 6 months or so.

Intel's super cool vpro technology, that lets you bypass the bios for remotely administering stuff for IT departments of very large orgs, has been shown to have backdoors.

There's probably three or four chips on the motherboard of the device you're reading this on right now that are at least as capable as an Arduino, capable of running all kinds of sleeper code.

Then there's more benign stuff like installing questionable trusted root ca certs, pseudo spyware and man in the middle attack advertising stuff. Which Lenovo did, it was a big deal but there's been so many scandals since then I can't even remember what it was called now.

TL;DR assume any highly integrated device (laptop, cellphone, tablet, etc) you own is at least partially compromised.

The least compromised devices are going to come directly from Apple, then Google, then maybe (?) Amazon who actually have people on staff and budgets large enough to do an effective security audit.

Also you should probably go out and buy one of those U2F / FIDO security keys, they work with stuff like Facebook, Gmail etc and the cheaper ones are under $10 on Amazon these days. They exist to prevent people from logging in to your account even if/when your password gets compromised.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

Is there a particularly good key? What happens if you lose one or it breaks?

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007



Mu Zeta posted:

Is there a particularly good key? What happens if you lose one or it breaks?

https://support.yubico.com/support/solutions/articles/15000006444-losing-your-yubikey

Yubico makes perhaps the most popular devices (Yubikey.) Ideally, get two, associate both with each account that supports them, then put one in a secure location and use the other for regular, daily authentication.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Feitian is part of the same group that wrote the standard. Yubico is definitely the market leader but it's an open standard. Google's new Titan branded keys are Feitian. That said the off brand is $16 and the market leader is $20 on Amazon.

And yeah you get two, one lives in your dresser drawer and you never use it in case you lose your keys, and if your house burns down and you lose both sets you can still recover your account, but recovery time is 24+ hours (this is a feature not a bug).

There's a list of major websites that support it, including Facebook, Google, Amazon, Twitter, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, GitHub etc etc: https://www.dongleauth.info/

Hadlock fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Oct 11, 2018

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007



Yubico had bitched about how one of the Titan keys uses Bluetooth which is a security vulnerability itself. Frankly though, getting users to use U2F keys in the first place is a win. Baby steps, people, baby steps.

mystes
May 31, 2006

Hadlock posted:

Bank of America
I don't think this is true (even though they were a member of the consortium that created U2F).

They used to have a proprietary securid fob type thing but now I think they only support using SMS and email to send codes for two factor authentication.

If I'm wrong and there is some sort of hidden option for U2F I would really like to know though.

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





https://www.notebookcheck.net/Razer-cutting-500-off-its-Blade-Stealth-Ultrabook-for-this-weekend-only.321442.0.html

Even with the older CPU, this seems like a pretty good deal for people who want build quality on a <$1k budget.

Thanks for all the answers dudes, I'm going to check into those key solutions later today. Right now I'm using LastPass for both password management and their Android authenticator that does 2FA for Google, personal Amazon, work Amazon, LastPass itself, etc. I like that I don't have to carry anything extra and I don't have to reconfigure all my different authentication tokens if I replace or factory reset my phone, I just log into the sister app and everything is good to go. But that comes at a cost to security, I'm sure.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

mystes posted:

I don't think this is true (even though they were a member of the consortium that created U2F).

They used to have a proprietary securid fob type thing but now I think they only support using SMS and email to send codes for two factor authentication.

If I'm wrong and there is some sort of hidden option for U2F I would really like to know though.

Yeah I will admit I only browsed that dongle auth site, did not validate all of them. I was mainly trying to make the point that this is a real thing supported by the sites most people use.

And yeah supposedly Bluetooth is "less" secure, but if it's good enough for Google to eliminate all phishing for two years for 80,000 employees, it's probably acceptable for the average user to prevent getting phished or your bank password reset through your email the next time your shared password gets leaked from xbox online or sony psn.

But at a minimum it's at least 50% more secure than not having 2FA at all. The chances of having BT encryption broken for your 2FA token at home or even in an international airport is astronomical, even if you're being targeted by state level intelligence agencies.

Also if your device has a USB port, or your phone has NFC (ALL iPhones, most Android over $200) you don't need Bluetooth. Also if your phone does not have NFC, but has a USB-C port, you can just plug it in to the charging port and that works too (I've tested this, is pretty cool how flawlessly this works).

TL;DR it's better to have 2FA than not, because any form of 2FA is almost 100% effective.

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





What's the best ultrabook or 2-in-1 that doesn't have soldered memory/SSD?

Unsinkabear fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 11, 2018

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

I think the XPS 15 9775 might be that device

What size screen do you want? 15 is pretty big for a 2-in-1

NewFatMike
Jun 11, 2015

Hadlock posted:

I think the XPS 15 9775 might be that device

What size screen do you want? 15 is pretty big for a 2-in-1

Nope, soldered memory.

mystes
May 31, 2006

Hadlock posted:

Yeah I will admit I only browsed that dongle auth site, did not validate all of them. I was mainly trying to make the point that this is a real thing supported by the sites most people use.
I just wish more sites (including BoA) actually supported it.

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





Hadlock posted:

What size screen do you want? 15 is pretty big for a 2-in-1

Doesn't matter. 15" isn't such a big deal if I can put it in tent mode, right? I'm just curious if it's possible to get a smaller or more flexible footprint without sacrificing maintenance and upgradability.

Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Unsinkabear posted:

Doesn't matter. 15" isn't such a big deal if I can put it in tent mode, right? I'm just curious if it's possible to get a smaller or more flexible footprint without sacrificing maintenance and upgradability.

Oh right that reminds me, I picked up a Yoga Tab 3 Plus QHD 10" Android tablet recently. It was recently on sale for $250, normally $300.

It's pretty neat, it does all the things, 12+ hour battery life, even has a USB-C port. Very cool feature is that it has a metal stand at you can prop it up in bed, sort of like tent mode. The stand is also a superior have grip.

It goes with me to work, the XPS 15 lives on my desk. Works out well. Zero compromise.

I'm firmly in the "use a tablet for tablet things, laptop for laptop things" camp at this point. The Yoga tab 3 has mostly replaced my Chromebook, plus it runs Android apps out of the box without any weird hacks.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Unsinkabear posted:

Doesn't matter. 15" isn't such a big deal if I can put it in tent mode, right? I'm just curious if it's possible to get a smaller or more flexible footprint without sacrificing maintenance and upgradability.

The SSD is replaceable in the XPS convertibles, dunno about other brands. I don't think RAM is replaceable in any brand though, the slot to connect them is just too big. Maybe if they came in a M.2 style form factor.

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





Hadlock posted:

Oh right that reminds me, I picked up a Yoga Tab 3 Plus QHD 10" Android tablet recently. It was recently on sale for $250, normally $300.

It's pretty neat, it does all the things, 12+ hour battery life, even has a USB-C port. Very cool feature is that it has a metal stand at you can prop it up in bed, sort of like tent mode. The stand is also a superior have grip.

It goes with me to work, the XPS 15 lives on my desk. Works out well. Zero compromise.

I'm firmly in the "use a tablet for tablet things, laptop for laptop things" camp at this point. The Yoga tab 3 has mostly replaced my Chromebook, plus it runs Android apps out of the box without any weird hacks.

So your tablet has a built-in popsocket? This (unironically) sounds like a perfect solution, thanks

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007



Unsinkabear posted:

So your tablet has a built-in popsocket? This (unironically) sounds like a perfect solution, thanks

I think that's the tablet line that has an optional built-in video projector!

Unsinkabear
Jun 8, 2013

Ensign, raise the beariscope.





Atomizer posted:

I think that's the tablet line that has an optional built-in video projector!

I would like to know more :allears:

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007



Unsinkabear posted:

I would like to know more :allears:

Found it: the Lenovo Yoga Tab 3 Pro!

Automatonic Water
Jul 8, 2012

dig thru the ditches
and burn thru the witches
and slam in the back of my.........
.........DRAGULA


Yams Fan
Is buying a laptop even worth it anymore? It seems like I'm buying a laptop every 3 years or so, looking for the sturdiest components, best build quality, specs that will remain relevant, etc. and yet they inevitably go to poo poo as soon as the warranty expires, either by the entire case falling apart or the internal components setting themselves on fire.

My Dell XPS 15, which at the time of of launch was hailed as the greatest, highest quality, totally invincible laptop carved out of an ancient titanium meteorite - well, you know what happened to all the Dell XPS machines, the battery swelled up (basically minutes after the warranty expired) and evidently cancered up my whole machine because after getting it replaced, I had power issues that necessitated Micro Center replacing my blasted-out motherboard 6 times (free of charge under the repair warranty until they begged me to stop playing any games more intense than Minecraft). Now, a year later, the loving thing has given up again and theres no way I'm pumping more money into it just to have it on bedrest for the rest of its sad life.

Meanwhile, my fiance's last two desktop computers (one store bought, one self built) have chugged along relentlessly for three or four times the lifespan of any of my laptops with minimal maintenance. Is there a point to voluntarily owning a laptop anymore? All I wanted was to play computergame in front of my TV and in bed. Should I just split my laptop functions into a Nintendo Switch and like, a Microsoft Surface or something?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Automatonic Water posted:

Is buying a laptop even worth it anymore? It seems like I'm buying a laptop every 3 years or so, looking for the sturdiest components, best build quality, specs that will remain relevant, etc. and yet they inevitably go to poo poo as soon as the warranty expires, either by the entire case falling apart or the internal components setting themselves on fire.

My Dell XPS 15, which at the time of of launch was hailed as the greatest, highest quality, totally invincible laptop carved out of an ancient titanium meteorite - well, you know what happened to all the Dell XPS machines, the battery swelled up (basically minutes after the warranty expired) and evidently cancered up my whole machine because after getting it replaced, I had power issues that necessitated Micro Center replacing my blasted-out motherboard 6 times (free of charge under the repair warranty until they begged me to stop playing any games more intense than Minecraft). Now, a year later, the loving thing has given up again and theres no way I'm pumping more money into it just to have it on bedrest for the rest of its sad life.

Meanwhile, my fiance's last two desktop computers (one store bought, one self built) have chugged along relentlessly for three or four times the lifespan of any of my laptops with minimal maintenance. Is there a point to voluntarily owning a laptop anymore? All I wanted was to play computergame in front of my TV and in bed. Should I just split my laptop functions into a Nintendo Switch and like, a Microsoft Surface or something?

Doesn't matter what brand/model you buy, there's always going to be someone with defective hardware experiences. Laptops have more failure risk because of the challenges of packing all that power into a tiny footprint at an affordable price point. There's definitely still reason to buy laptops, particularly for people who expect to travel a lot, but your use case sounds like one where in-home streaming on an inexpensive device would do the majority of what you want.

There are ways to improve the longevity of a laptop, mainly by keeping thermals in check (disable turbo boost, undervolt, improve cooling) and keeping your battery at partial charge (configurable on newer laptops). My Surface Pro 3 is retired now because of a swelling battery literally popping the screen off along one side, at least your XPS is serviceable and could have the battery replaced. The number of times your motherboard had to be replaced makes me wonder if there's something else in play regarding your situation though.

CFox
Nov 9, 2005
I picked up a used Latitude E6220 that's still going strong, it's 7 years old now. I keep reading about problems with the XPS 15, I'd wager it's just too many hot and power hungry components in too small a package.

space marine todd
Nov 7, 2014



space marine todd posted:

Are there usually Black Friday/holiday deals for Lenovo laptops that are worth waiting for? I won't be getting my laptop until I move in November anyway, but I don't know if there will be deals better than the B&N Gold program.

Any ideas about this?

Volkerball
Oct 15, 2009

by FactsAreUseless
I'm looking for a laptop in the $500-700 range. I have a PS4 that I use to play new games. The laptop would mostly be for playing the sorts of games you don't get on consoles, like paradox games and civilization. Usually games that don't have a lot of graphical stuff going on but can still make a computer chug due to all the poo poo being processed in the background. I'm pretty computer illiterate, but I know that everything gaming seems to revolve around the graphics card. I'm not really worried about FPS or ultra settings or anything like that though, so does that still apply to me? I'm more concerned with what I think is dependent on the processor. Simulating time forward quickly and things like that. Is that still dependent on the graphics card? I would imagine games like CK2 would be more like running CAD software or something like that than typical gaming. Other than that it'd just be youtube and browsing and stuff, although I like to have a lot of tabs open and bounce from task to task, so I'd like to be able to do that without the computer making GBS threads itself. As far as space, I'd like either a 512gb SSD or a 256 that I could put a normal hard drive in for storage later if I wanted.

I've been keeping an eye on the lenovo outlet for refurbished and dinged options, and the T470s is in my price range and seems to be a good deal. Is that the right direction and suitable for my needs or should I be doing something differently?

Volkerball fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Oct 13, 2018

roomforthetuna
Mar 22, 2005

I don't need to know anything about virii! My CUSTOM PROGRAM keeps me protected! It's not like they'll try to come in through the Internet or something!
I guess this is a good thread to say "ahhh, god drat it" about the Oculus Go being so close to a thing that I want, but not it.

High resolution screen in a face-pack with lenses at a reasonable price, yes!

Putting a processor in there and running special Android garbage and doing 3D poo poo, no, that is not what I wanted, I just wanted a big virtual 2D screen on my face. I'll put an HDMI cord on it. :argh:

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

roomforthetuna posted:

I guess this is a good thread to say "ahhh, god drat it" about the Oculus Go being so close to a thing that I want, but not it.

High resolution screen in a face-pack with lenses at a reasonable price, yes!

Putting a processor in there and running special Android garbage and doing 3D poo poo, no, that is not what I wanted, I just wanted a big virtual 2D screen on my face. I'll put an HDMI cord on it. :argh:

Sounds like you want a drone FPV headset with HDMI in.

roomforthetuna
Mar 22, 2005

I don't need to know anything about virii! My CUSTOM PROGRAM keeps me protected! It's not like they'll try to come in through the Internet or something!

Rexxed posted:

Sounds like you want a drone FPV headset with HDMI in.
Don't those tend to be not high resolution, and aim for an "immersive" view rather than a rectangle-floating-in-front-of-you view? (Edit: and also looks like even at 1080p they're like $500, vs. the Oculus Go's 1440p at $200. Not that the Oculus isn't also not good for me because immersive, but that was the point I was making, the hardware and price is like four times as good as anything prior but it's been frustratingly tailored for an experience I don't want.)

roomforthetuna fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Oct 14, 2018

Rexxed
May 1, 2010

Dis is amazing!
I gotta try dis!

roomforthetuna posted:

Don't those tend to be not high resolution, and aim for an "immersive" view rather than a rectangle-floating-in-front-of-you view? (Edit: and also looks like even at 1080p they're like $500, vs. the Oculus Go's 1440p at $200. Not that the Oculus isn't also not good for me because immersive, but that was the point I was making, the hardware and price is like four times as good as anything prior but it's been frustratingly tailored for an experience I don't want.)

Yeah, I think they are more meant to be immersive, but there's some budget ones in the $200 range. I guess they don't exactly meet your needs, either.

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT
There's a whole VR thread over yonder. Sounds like what you're looking for is one of those WMR headsets.

roomforthetuna
Mar 22, 2005

I don't need to know anything about virii! My CUSTOM PROGRAM keeps me protected! It's not like they'll try to come in through the Internet or something!

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

There's a whole VR thread over yonder. Sounds like what you're looking for is one of those WMR headsets.
Aha, thanks. WMR seems to have been the magic word to get the resolution+price sort of things I was looking for. And bigscreenvr seems to be doing the sort of "just a screen with regular stuff" things I was looking for.
I wouldn't have thought to look in a VR thread because I specifically *don't* want VR, don't give a poo poo about it, hate the whole premise.

Edit: WMR is still not really doing what I want though, because it's still doing rendering a different view for each eye, which requires a high-powered graphics card. What I *really* want is just a regular small high-res screen rendering the normal rectangular content, and some lenses crafted to make that single image look like it's a big screen at a reasonable distance. I'm not an opticologist though, I don't know if that's even a possible thing to do with lenses, maybe the required angles would be too steep to refract.
Edit2: I would especially prefer something that works just like a regular HDMI screen because I'd like a face-mounted screen that still works as a screen in a year or two when all the different VR programming interfaces change again. "Only works with Windows 10 and specific supporting graphics card drivers" doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that regard.

roomforthetuna fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Oct 14, 2018

AgentCow007
May 20, 2004
TITLE TEXT

roomforthetuna posted:

Edit: WMR is still not really doing what I want though, because it's still doing rendering a different view for each eye, which requires a high-powered graphics card. What I *really* want is just a regular small high-res screen rendering the normal rectangular content, and some lenses crafted to make that single image look like it's a big screen at a reasonable distance. I'm not an opticologist though, I don't know if that's even a possible thing to do with lenses, maybe the required angles would be too steep to refract.
Edit2: I would especially prefer something that works just like a regular HDMI screen because I'd like a face-mounted screen that still works as a screen in a year or two when all the different VR programming interfaces change again. "Only works with Windows 10 and specific supporting graphics card drivers" doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that regard.

Yeah, I don't think a single screen thing works that close to your face. They sell lots of cheap goggles that you can drop your phone into, but none of them are like that either. You could experiment with a phone and some fresnel lenses but I don't think you're going to get the quality you'd expect.

roomforthetuna
Mar 22, 2005

I don't need to know anything about virii! My CUSTOM PROGRAM keeps me protected! It's not like they'll try to come in through the Internet or something!

AgentCow007 posted:

Yeah, I don't think a single screen thing works that close to your face. They sell lots of cheap goggles that you can drop your phone into, but none of them are like that either. You could experiment with a phone and some fresnel lenses but I don't think you're going to get the quality you'd expect.
I just found "MovieMask" that is nominally doing what I want, but I can't find anything about the clarity, or indeed any reviews at all that are more specific than "it's great, I really like it, very comfortable". (And even if it would work, would still need a phone-sized HD screen to put in it, which seemingly only exists in phones, not in HDMI standalone. Small standalone screens seem to cut off at 1280x800.)

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT

roomforthetuna posted:

Edit: WMR is still not really doing what I want though, because it's still doing rendering a different view for each eye, which requires a high-powered graphics card. What I *really* want is just a regular small high-res screen rendering the normal rectangular content, and some lenses crafted to make that single image look like it's a big screen at a reasonable distance. I'm not an opticologist though, I don't know if that's even a possible thing to do with lenses, maybe the required angles would be too steep to refract.
Edit2: I would especially prefer something that works just like a regular HDMI screen because I'd like a face-mounted screen that still works as a screen in a year or two when all the different VR programming interfaces change again. "Only works with Windows 10 and specific supporting graphics card drivers" doesn't give me a lot of confidence in that regard.

Just get some cheap Google Cardboard thing and strap your phone to your face? I have no idea what kind of device you're trying to describe, or what you actually want to do with it.

edit: why do you need hdmi? I'm so confused.

edit2: I think you're imagining that you could just strap a static screen to your face and watch movies and do work from your computer, and holy poo poo no you can't. Without at least 3DOF tracking, that's a one-way trip to vomitsville. If it were that cheap and easy to do what I think you're imagining, we'd all own such a thing already. Bigscreen is what you want, VR has been trying to solve this exact problem for years, and that's about the closest you can get right now.

Also, pixel density doesn't matter for this the way you think it does, either. Assuming I understand what you're talking about.

Dr. Fishopolis fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Oct 14, 2018

roomforthetuna
Mar 22, 2005

I don't need to know anything about virii! My CUSTOM PROGRAM keeps me protected! It's not like they'll try to come in through the Internet or something!

Dr. Fishopolis posted:

Just get some cheap Google Cardboard thing and strap your phone to your face? I have no idea what kind of device you're trying to describe, or what you actually want to do with it.
Those things require the phone be rendering a different image for each eye, and then do head-tracking poo poo that I don't want, and run phone software that I don't want.

quote:

edit2: I think you're imagining that you could just strap a static screen to your face and watch movies and do work from your computer, and holy poo poo no you can't. Without at least 3DOF tracking, that's a one-way trip to vomitsville.
That is correct that that's what I'm imagining.
The objection doesn't make sense. If I'm not moving my head (and I don't move my head when I'm doing computer things right now), why on earth would a screen that's not moving exactly the same amount as my head is not moving lead to puketown?

quote:

If it were that cheap and easy to do what I think you're imagining, we'd all own such a thing already. Bigscreen is what you want, VR has been trying to solve this exact problem for years, and that's about the closest you can get right now.
VR has been trying to render things separately for each eye to get a 3D effect for years. Hardly anyone has been trying to do just the refocusing one screen thing (But MovieMask maybe!)

quote:

Also, pixel density doesn't matter for this the way you think it does, either. Assuming I understand what you're talking about.
I guess you don't then? If the resolution is less than 1080p then I can't fit as much content on the screen as I fit on my existing 1080p screen (some of my text is small enough that if you kept it the same size at a lower resolution it would become illegible) so that matters. And if the resolution is 1080p with less than the appropriate pixel density then the screen is way too big to hang on your face.
If you're thinking of pixel density as it applies to regular VR headsets where they render two crushed half-screens then yeah, it would be reasonable to expect I'd be confused, but I'm not talking about that. The MovieMask thing from my previous post understands what I want! (They might not achieve it, unknown whether their focus is clear enough to read small text, but the premise of their product is what I want. Except with a screen that's not a phone.)

Dr. Fishopolis
Aug 31, 2004

ROBOT

roomforthetuna posted:

The objection doesn't make sense. If I'm not moving my head (and I don't move my head when I'm doing computer things right now), why on earth would a screen that's not moving exactly the same amount as my head is not moving lead to puketown?

Because you don't stay perfectly still. It's impossible to. Some people get extremely motion sick as a result, which is why people are spending time and money actually trying to create the experience you're describing in VR rather than doing what MovieMask seems to be trying to do.

Anyway, this is a discussion for the VR thread, not the laptop thread, so this'll be my last reply on the topic here. Sorry for perpetuating this silly derail.

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Hadlock
Nov 9, 2004

Yeah even cardboard and daydream move the camera slightly in 3D space (and then subtly back again) if you shift forward or back, or side to side. You can't walk around in those simulations but the camera moves in 3d side to keep your brain from panicking and painting the floor with your lunch.

Watching raw footage from vr is pretty unsettling, especially if they move their head a lot differently than you do when walking or looking around. Not only do different people perceive reality differently, but they move through it differently too.

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