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OmanyteJackson posted:Demons tap into America's puritanical roots and also as a video game the player is complicit with the actions of doom guy. In fiction the demons are at best a force of nature, at worst a victim of capitalism, yet players still enjoy crushing there skulls. Empathy is weird. The fact you like rape porn makes your other opinions a lot funnier
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Oct 16, 2018 10:45
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Hungry posted:It amazes me that after discussion of the fascist-coded rape fetish show was gassed in ADTRW there's still people in entirely different subforums on this dead gay comedy site determined to strap those contextual blinders to their faces and defend it by getting real loving weird. A lot of nerds seem pretty committed to normalizing rape fetish cartoons
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Oct 16, 2018 11:00
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Goblin Slayer looks like a show designed by one of those lovely dorks that loudly complain about women warriors in Fantasy worlds because “realistically that’s what would happen.”
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Oct 16, 2018 12:10
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sexpig by night posted:MHA fuckin rules but even it has weird race science poo poo of 'well see some people are just genetically better'. Yeah, that's kind of an innate problem with the superhero genre. If superheroes are in an innate position above society, they're the ubermensch. If they're feared and persecuted, any allegorical value of their mistreatment is somewhat misaimed due to their powers legitimately making them threats.
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Oct 16, 2018 12:30
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The Bee posted:Yeah, that's kind of an innate problem with the superhero genre. If superheroes are in an innate position above society, they're the ubermensch. If they're feared and persecuted, any allegorical value of their mistreatment is somewhat misaimed due to their powers legitimately making them threats. This is one thing Spider-Man does interestingly - pretty much everyone in it is an ordinary human who was either given or gave themselves superpowers. There's no born winners in it, just people who were elevated (or lowered) by a combination of luck and their own decisions.
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Oct 16, 2018 12:36
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Darth Walrus posted:This is one thing Spider-Man does interestingly - pretty much everyone in it is an ordinary human who was either given or gave themselves superpowers. There's no born winners in it, just people who were elevated (or lowered) by a combination of luck and their own decisions. That's a good point. My example really only holds up for those born superheroes. And honestly, that seems increasingly rare in fiction these days. Of the major tentpoles I think its basically just half of the Justice League and Thor? And the X-Men, where that's the literal point
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Oct 16, 2018 12:42
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So let's see if I'm caught up here: -cartoon about being nice to people: fascist -cartoon about exterminating the subhuman filth that are raping our women and destroying our crops, because they are literally all murderous rapists, all of them, even their children, who should be shown no mercy and destroyed with extreme prejudice: totally not fascist yeah okay checks out
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Oct 16, 2018 12:45
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OmanyteJackson posted:Yeah. The french nobility and the beneficiaries of white slave owners. Both enacted centuries of state sanctioned violence and rape against their people. Umm no? Daniel Guerin's work on the terror (class struggle in the first French Republic) found that most victims were peasants and townfolk. Most nobles stayed in France and served the Republic, they voluntarily voted to abolish their own privileges pretty early on. Most nobles that were killed or fled did so becuase they were accused of crimes, like the Duke of Orleans who was tried and executed because his son fled and they believed he had connections to a conspiracy. Also the anti slavery French revolutionaries were a minority and mostly Girondin meaning they died before slavery was abolished. The slaves revolting is what ended slavery and most of the former masters just fled back to France. Augus posted:So let's see if I'm caught up here: Oh yeah, I'd forgot about that, lmao Baka-nin fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 12:56
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this goblin rape anime sounds like an anime sargon of akkad would make
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Oct 16, 2018 13:00
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Darth Walrus posted:There's no born winners in it, just people who were elevated (or lowered) by a combination of luck and their own decisions. This is precisely one of the big factors in my liking dudes like Punisher and Deathstroke a lot, a bit less in Deathstroke's case because he had the "Originally dosed up on badass serum" shtick, but they're both characters entirely reliant on their martial skill and quick thinking/planning more than the "I'm boring and was born a perfect super human" guys.
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Oct 16, 2018 13:16
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cat doter posted:this goblin rape anime sounds like an anime sargon of akkad would make Basically It started out as a cyoa forums game a la ms paint adventures in the Japanese forerunner to 4chan, and is exactly the kind of chud garbage you would expect from that description It does not get better or explore its premise in any meaningful or worthwhile way, and is basically only interesting for the fact that it seemingly manifested as a perfect form example of genocidal polemic largely unconsciously.
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Oct 16, 2018 13:34
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Terrible Opinions posted:No such exploration occurs. You are buying into apologia by rape fetishists. I was actually going off the description in the video DanO responded to, entitled "You shouldn't watch Goblin Slayer," which argues that the story is interesting, but there's too much lovely sexualized rape to make it worth recommending, but sure, let's ignore that nuance exists. Darth Walrus posted:This would be where we start noticing that D&D was written by a bunch of casually racist dudes with really weird fetishes, and that the fandom has been joking about and grappling with this for literal decades, yes. If something is inspired by an older, racist work and carries over that work's issues, then it is still racist. I mean, yes, that's entirely my point- unless you are specifically thinking about Wider Societal Implications and trying actively to be woke or whatever the kids are calling it these days, you're automatically going to end up having loads of problematic issues in your work, because you're by necessity building on a platform that was built by people of the past, who were also full of bigotry, because bigotry is kind of endemic to humanity. This does not mean that bigotry is not bad. This does not mean that we shouldn't work against it. It just means that pointing out "Oh, look, this thing based on a widely influential setting that uses Always Chaotic Evil as an excuse to make it OK for players to fight intelligent monsters to blow off steam maybe has some loving terrible implications if applied in the real world" is about as helpful as pointing out "Actually, dragons wouldn't physically be able to fly." It's the most basic "No poo poo, Sherlock" point. Like I don't even feel like the story as described is worth defending, so this'll be my last post on the matter, but jesus, it shouldn't be considered an interesting point that stuff inspired by power fantasies ends up being lovely, because power fantasies require a base level of shittiness to function anyway, and nothing mainstream is ever going to be able to escape a base level of issues, because the issues have been baked into culture for forever.
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Oct 16, 2018 13:42
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I didn't know Trey Parker had a sa account
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Oct 16, 2018 13:47
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Yardbomb posted:This is precisely one of the big factors in my liking dudes like Punisher and Deathstroke a lot, a bit less in Deathstroke's case because he had the "Originally dosed up on badass serum" shtick, but they're both characters entirely reliant on their martial skill and quick thinking/planning more than the "I'm boring and was born a perfect super human" guys. I’ve spoken about this topic in the past, and expressed my dislike of Born Greatness stories, but I would add that I don’t necessarily dislike heroes with innate advantages so long as the narrative acknowledges that it isn’t fair. Because life isn’t fair, and it’s okay for fiction to reflect that so long as it doesn’t do so in a way that glorifies it. On a related note, Big Joel recently did a video about Shark Tale and essentialism, which is relevant to this discussion, though it isn't about superheroes. I’ve never seen the movie but I know that the trope of “the hero who starts out wanting more, but ends up being happy with the status quo”, annoys me a lot when it’s done badly, which is most of the time.
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Oct 16, 2018 13:51
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Why you guys don't have Omanyte on ignore is beyond me.
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Oct 16, 2018 13:56
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Puppy Time posted:I was actually going off the description in the video DanO responded to, entitled "You shouldn't watch Goblin Slayer," which argues that the story is interesting, but there's too much lovely sexualized rape to make it worth recommending, but sure, let's ignore that nuance exists. If you don't want to think about your power fantasies nobody is forcing you, but people don't have to swallow those handwaves just because the implications and lack of "novelty" make you feel frustrated.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:00
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Okay so here are some series that do the whole “grimdark ultraviolent anime” thing actually well Berserk: Has its moments of excess but the series as a whole uses its darkness and brutality to tell an incredibly well-written story about how survivors of trauma go through the process of slowly healing. The characters, both good and evil, have an incredible amount of depth and humanity to them. Guts is a fantastic protagonist who has a lot more going on than simple revenge fantasy. Drakengard: A satire of the hack n slash game genre that uses its darkness and brutality to mock the glorification of warfare in video games. The protagonist is reprehensible, your allies are corrupt, your goal is nebulous and questionable, your mission objectives read like war propaganda, and the more you play the game the more the game’s mechanics seem to be screaming at you to stop playing. It’s very rough early PS2 weirdness that managed to leave a pretty lasting impression. Devilman Crybaby: Uses darkness and brutality to deliver a very genuine message about rejecting hate. Its protagonist defies genre conventions by being defined by his sense of empathy, instead of rage. What these series have in common is that they don’t expect their viewers to accept the violence and carnage at face value. They actively question their own settings and are driven by thematic purpose.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:02
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StealthArcher posted:Righto Gramps, tell us the story about how the Czechs deserved those tanks again. As incredibly dumb as that take is I find it refreshing to see someone blaming society's failures (GANGWEED) on Disney movies and anime rather than superhero movies. Aw poo poo, wait, those count too though, because Disney absorbed Marvel.
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Oct 16, 2018 14:30
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The funny thing about Goblin Slayer is that you can't really go 'lol Japan' about it (not that 'lol Japan' is generally a wise course of action) because most of what makes it gross stems directly from D&D, and Ed Greenwood's writings in particular. It's basically shining a spotlight on the spectacularly disgusting pervs responsible for much of the modern fantasy genre on both sides of the Pacific.
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Oct 16, 2018 15:22
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Goblin Slayer is basically Lord of the Swastika, but unironic and probably not intentionally, in that its a very good example of how traditional pulp fantasy narratives only need a relatively small push to go headfirst into polemicism
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Oct 16, 2018 15:34
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Can we go back to talking about Stalin dying being funny? New Need Crew btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ZchzyDPJw
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Oct 16, 2018 16:03
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Augus posted:So let's see if I'm caught up here: He's pretty much inverted his arguments too. The diamonds and how they are dealt with must literally be an endorsement for talking to fascists. The goblins cannot be an endorsement for how fascists describe "subhuman filfth" and how they must be purged. He's probably a new bravest lamp, he'll make the most insufferable derail possible and then never listen to any point made while repeating his own in order to push it as far as it will go. Or maybe he is a chud. Arguing against Steven universe is one thing, anyone can not like a cartoon even if it's done positive things for the LGBT community and that was written by a Jewish woman. But to defend lovely rape fascism anime this hard as well? Kind of suspicious. Hemingway To Go! fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 16:18
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Hemingway To Go! posted:He's pretty much inverted his arguments too. The diamonds and how they are dealt with must literally be an endorsement for talking to fascists. The goblins cannot be an endorsement for how fascists describe "subhuman filfth" and how they must be purged. I think it mostly is just a byproduct of the current culture where everything HAS to be A Political Statement, rather than just be a work that has some lovely implications, and everyone has to pick a side, and if you don't agree with a particular Hot Take then obviously you support the nazis/communists. We're all hyped up from having to deal with actual nazis to the point that everything MUST be propaganda, rather than just a reflection of the human tendency to oversimplify things into shittiness. Like, superheroes and Always Chaotic Evil have always been inherently fascistic ideas, but they don't necessarily produce fascists. (Though they can be used to do so, obviously.) Edit: The second paragraph doesn't really apply to OJ who I haven't been paying attention to; it's just a general observation.
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Oct 16, 2018 16:55
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Augus posted:So let's see if I'm caught up here: I never said the gay space rock show was literally fascist ya dingus. I said it set a bad example for how children should treat their abusers. I'm just saying theres more to fascism than just mean super murder. The appeal of fascism is not just murder. It's an ideology that fetishises purity and obsesses over fromer greatness. Its a form of politics that subjugates the underclass and annihilates the weak. Maybe the show goes into those politics later but from my understanding it's just a mundane rpg world. The thing is real fascism is on the rise globally, not just because they hate the right people, they also promise the impossible. Maybe i'm an rear end in a top hat for caring about real world poo poo, whatever. The DnD cartoon isn't fascist, it's just reactionary garbage. I hate that this conversation needs to be so long. I'm done. A Gnarlacious Bro posted:The fact you like rape porn makes your other opinions a lot funnier gently caress off and die. No seriously. Find a shotgun. Put it up your rear end. Pull the trigger. Make the world a better place. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) OmanyteJackson fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 17:07
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OmanyteJackson posted:Okay do you really think fascism is not liking a particular group of people? OmanyteJackson nods sagely and unleashes devastation on his enemies by opening his genius mouth and proudly proclaiming "Triumph of the Will isn't fascist, it just doesn't like a particular group of people, lol kill yourself" before hitting resume on his goblin porn Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 17:09
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OmanyteJackson posted:I never said the gay space rock show was literally fascist ya dingus. I said it set a bad example for how children should treat their abusers. I'm really unsure about that definition for the simple reason that upon reading Mein Kampf, it became extremely obvious that Hitler's main political drive was his colossal mad-on for Jews, and everything else was simply about facilitating the murder of Jews. Now, Nazism is only part of the broader fascist ideology, and Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism is a much more abstract work that extols the aesthetic virtues of a society kept pure by constant violence, but when the founder of the most famous branch of the ideology treats all the stuff about the economy and the structure of the state as nothing more than a disposable vehicle for Jew-extermination, I'm going to be a wee bit sceptical about how vital it is. At the very least, it's immediately apparent from reading even the most central works of fascist literature that it's a very broad and often self-contradictory ideology, so getting overly prescriptive isn't particularly helpful.
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Oct 16, 2018 17:15
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OmanyteJackson posted:gently caress off and die. No seriously. Find a shotgun. Put it up your rear end. Pull the trigger. Make the world a better place. Wow, yikes.
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Oct 16, 2018 17:19
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I feel like if you’re genociding then you’re not really practicing liberalism or socialism, and that just leaves the one modern alternative. Imperialism is actually pretty close to fascism as actually practiced, only done to a subject nation and not the culture’s own people.
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Oct 16, 2018 17:27
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Darth Walrus posted:I'm really unsure about that definition for the simple reason that upon reading Mein Kampf, it became extremely obvious that Hitler's main political drive was his colossal mad-on for Jews, and everything else was simply about facilitating the murder of Jews. Now, Nazism is only part of the broader fascist ideology, and Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism is a much more abstract work that extols the aesthetic virtues of a society kept pure by constant violence, but when the founder of the most famous branch of the ideology treats all the stuff about the economy and the structure of the state as nothing more than a disposable vehicle for Jew-extermination, I'm going to be a wee bit sceptical about how vital it is. At the very least, it's immediately apparent from reading even the most central works of fascist literature that it's a very broad and often self-contradictory ideology, so getting overly prescriptive isn't particularly helpful. Yeah your right, fascist don't really follow a logical framework. put people tend to forget how popular fascism got, there where many prominent nazi supporters in the US right up until america entered the war. Hbomberguy posted:OmanyteJackson nods sagely and unleashes devastation on his enemies by opening his genius mouth and proudly proclaiming "Triumph of the Will isn't fascist, it just doesn't like a particular group of people" before hitting resume on his goblin porn This is amazingly stupid in a hundred different ways, Here's one. How many people are killed in Triumph of the Will. Yet it's still fascist propaganda. Almost like there's more to a dangerous ideology than "murder the bad people" 
OmanyteJackson fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 17:29
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OmanyteJackson posted:gently caress off and die. No seriously. Find a shotgun. Put it up your rear end. Pull the trigger. Make the world a better place. 
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Oct 16, 2018 17:30
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Arcsquad12 posted:Can we go back to talking about Stalin dying being funny? Daniel Radcliffe as Joker was great.
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Oct 16, 2018 17:54
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OmanyteJackson posted:gently caress off and die. No seriously. Find a shotgun. Put it up your rear end. Pull the trigger. Make the world a better place. Tell us more about how you hate the goblins.
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Oct 16, 2018 17:55
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OmanyteJackson posted:This is amazingly stupid in a hundred different ways, Here's one. How many people are killed in Triumph of the Will. Yet it's still fascist propaganda. Almost like there's more to a dangerous ideology than "murder the bad people" rape goblins don’t exist but fascism is about convincing people they do exist and it is okay to murder them and their offspring without mercy or remorse slaying monsters without thinking much is commonplace and expected in casual fantasy adventure stories (you don’t see people complaining much about killing bokoblins in Zelda) but once you get into this masturbatory indulgence in wanton cruelty and hatred without a hint of irony or self-reflection you take your story to an uncomfortable and dangerous place Augus fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 18:03
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OmanyteJackson posted:This is amazingly stupid in a hundred different ways, Here's one. How many people are killed in Triumph of the Will. Yet it's still fascist propaganda. Almost like there's more to a dangerous ideology than "murder the bad people" Historically, fascism attempts to make itself seem deeper and more complicated by inventing delusions of purity and progress. These are lies. Fascists want to kill the bad people and want to be powerful, but invent other, mythical 'deeper, more complex' reasonings and faux-nuances to mask this brutal simplicity. When you say that fascism is actually more complicated than thuggery, you are accepting a literal fascist lie. It is not. You are not a fascist. You merely enjoy the fascist porn cartoon and you don't want to think too hard about why. You're ignorant in the same highly unexceptional way we happen to see in garden variety fascists, but that's ok. It is possible to become less ignorant, all you have to do is stop trying to pretend there's secretly a very clever reason to be stupid. An intellectually honest reply to criticisms would be to present an oppositional or redemptive reading of the text, as Augus just did really well with three 'edgy' media properties, or perhaps simply admit to the troublesome messaging and explore why you or others might enjoy the thing in more detail.
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Oct 16, 2018 18:15
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The person who encourages people to kill themselves is totally worth engaging, and I'm sure has very intelligent points to make when he debates Steven Universe with you.
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Oct 16, 2018 18:16
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OmanyteJackson posted:
So is that a subset of the rape porn fetish or
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Oct 16, 2018 18:38
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fine agree to disagree on the nature of fascism. whatever. but im done with people talking about rape porn. Hbomberguy posted:You are not a fascist. You merely enjoy the fascist porn cartoon and you don't want to think too hard about why. i havent seen this show. I dont like this show. Sexual assault in media has a profoundly negative effect on me due to personal experience i dont want to go into. I'm no longer going to engage with this poo poo.
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Oct 16, 2018 18:51
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OK, we are done talking about goblin slayer, take that chat to adtrw (don't actually, wark say doesn't deserve this)
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Oct 16, 2018 18:52
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Darth Walrus posted:The funny thing about Goblin Slayer is that you can't really go 'lol Japan' about it (not that 'lol Japan' is generally a wise course of action) because most of what makes it gross stems directly from D&D, and Ed Greenwood's writings in particular. It's basically shining a spotlight on the spectacularly disgusting pervs responsible for much of the modern fantasy genre on both sides of the Pacific. Puppy Time posted:I was actually going off the description in the video DanO responded to, entitled "You shouldn't watch Goblin Slayer," which argues that the story is interesting, but there's too much lovely sexualized rape to make it worth recommending, but sure, let's ignore that nuance exists.
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Oct 16, 2018 18:53
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The Bee posted:That's a good point. My example really only holds up for those born superheroes. And honestly, that seems increasingly rare in fiction these days. Of the major tentpoles I think its basically just half of the Justice League and Thor? And the X-Men, where that's the literal point This is why Kamen Rider is the greatest superhero of all time. An unwilling product of neo-nazi experimentation who resists brainwashing and dedicates his life to antifascist action.
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Oct 16, 2018 19:04
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