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Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

Tae posted:

She didn't do that much better in fate/zero

kiritsugu is an idiot.

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Terrible Opinions posted:

It doesn't. She was just given that character trait, because woman.
I, uh, really don't think that's the case when there's tons of female characters in apocrypha and the franchise that don't have that character trait.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
Saber is the 'strongest class' in the sense that qualifying for it requires well-rounded servants with no obvious weaknesses, and Arturia in particular is an excellent heroic spirit with access to powerful skills and attributes and downright fantastic Noble Phantasms, but setting aside Shirou's incompetence as a master, in the 5th Holy Grail War all the servants are loving top tier.

Like Lancer - Lancer is amazing. He'd have absolutely curbstomped everyone except Berserker. But you know what they did to him? What crime they did to this total loving badass? "By the power of my Command Spell, I order you to fight every servant - but do not defeat them. Assess their strength, then retreat."

Ccs posted:

The way Shirou's power very quickly starts to manifest without him really putting in the work (since it's only been a few days) doesn't feel earned. If he was able to accomplish things because of the specific hardening skill he'd been practicing his whole life and learned to use that in a new clever way then it'd feel more convincing.

This would make a lot more sense if you had actually read Fate instead of just claiming you did.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Conspiratiorist posted:

Like Lancer - Lancer is amazing. He'd have absolutely curbstomped everyone except Berserker. But you know what they did to him? What crime they did to this total loving badass? "By the power of my Command Spell, I order you to fight every servant - but do not defeat them. Assess their strength, then retreat."

Not to mention given who his original Master was. Especially given they, a regular human mage, owned a Noble Phantasm themself. An given what the noble phantasm was, any enemy servant trying to use their own noble phantasm is basically hosed.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013

Grimey Drawer

Stairmaster posted:

kiritsugu is an idiot.

It is hilarious just how stupid he is. He could have spent the entire war pissing about by just giving Saber her scabbard and she would have torn apart everybody else no problem.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010



Captain Baal posted:

Don't forget she also attempted to kill Jack prior to that whole mess and Jeanne even gave Jack a pretty peaceful death that she got upset over, so lol that character

That's not even remotely inconsistent seeing how that was before Atalante got the mind link backstory of Jack though?

Like it's not just 'being a child', it's 'horrifically abused and killed children looking for the family and life they could never have' that's the tipping point. Once she got that context, she wanted to try to save Jack and the rest of the children of the world with her wish.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Ccs posted:

Yep I've seen Madoka. I liked it, except for the ending of the last movie.

Also finished season 1 of Unlimited Blade Works. Was interesting seeing things turn out differently from parts of the VN Fate route, but there's so much in terms of characters getting spared for tenuous reasons and Saber's very inconsistent powerlevel (said repeatedly she's the strongest Servant, Archer says she would have beaten him, but then she gets beaten handily by a regular human whose fists are slightly powered up?) The way Shirou's power very quickly starts to manifest without him really putting in the work (since it's only been a few days) doesn't feel earned. If he was able to accomplish things because of the specific hardening skill he'd been practicing his whole life and learned to use that in a new clever way then it'd feel more convincing.
ufotable production values are top notch across the whole season though so great job to the animation team. They're able to combine CG assets with 2d in a way that looks better than any other studio's attempts.

Saber is technically supposed to be strongest tier, but she has the handicaps of Shirou being a poo poo magus, lowering her stats and limiting how often she can use her NP, and the issue that she's on the protagonist side and can't just breeze through everything for the sake of the plot.

But if you really think about it, she completely outclasses Rider, Lancer, and Assassin, Caster can't do anything to her without a surprise attack, and even if Archer goes after her with every advantage, the best he can manage is a draw, and he loses if Shirou backs her up. The only exceptions are Berserker and Gilgamesh, who are big cheaters, and she can even beat them if Shirou gives her another NP. Even in Zero, everyone picks on her emotionally, but the only time she ever actually straight up loses a fight is her last brief confrontation against Gilgamesh.

As for Kuzuki, Caster's buffs are supposed to put his physical abilities on the grade of a lower-end servant, and he's spent his entire life training an assassin's technique that is specifically designed to always work once the first time and then be completely ineffectual after. It's a bit of a plot device, but that's just how these things go.

The one who really deserves to be complained about is Lancer, who has a spear whose whole thing is that it is absolutely guaranteed to kill a single opponent, and in the entire franchise I think the only time he ever stabs anybody with it and they die and stay dead is when he kills Kotomine in the UBW route.

As for Shirou's sudden power up, it's a lot more detailed in the VN than the anime. There's some magic bullshit going on where he's sucking up experiences from Archer because they're the same person, so the more they contact each other, the more stuff flows into him through the bond they share. There's also the thing that he projects weapons in such a way that he also projects their experience, meaning he can wield them appropriately and swing them around like a master swordsman to an extent.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!
Having watched fate/zero again a few months ago, I'm counting her fight against Diamuird a loss considering she can't use one of her arm (and NP) until the Gilles situation forced a truce.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

which would have been a nonstarter if kiri had given her the sheathe or just shot kayneth when he had the chance.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Terrible Opinions posted:

It doesn't. She was just given that character trait, because woman. The cloeset you get from her myth is not being able to have kids with his husband due to both of them being turned into lions and the Greeks having no idea how lion biology worked.

No, it's directly from her myth. Her dad wanted a son, so when she was born he left her on a mountain to die and she got raised by animals. Jack is an amalgamation of thousands of kids exactly like her, and diving inside her world was basically someone unearthing Atalanta's biggest, darkest trauma-button and performing an Irish jig on it.

PupsOfWar
Dec 6, 2013

ACES CURE PLANES posted:

That's not even remotely inconsistent seeing how that was before Atalante got the mind link backstory of Jack though?

Like it's not just 'being a child', it's 'horrifically abused and killed children looking for the family and life they could never have' that's the tipping point. Once she got that context, she wanted to try to save Jack and the rest of the children of the world with her wish.

also, hadn't Amakusa just previously hosed her up by giving a big speech about how every wish except his was futile and pointless

this naturally would put one in a belligerent sort of mood

the rest of her team wouldn't have been affected as much by this same event, since they all either didn't have a wish or had one that they could fulfill without the aid of the grail

PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Oct 18, 2018

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

Re: Saber v Archer

To be fair, we never once actually see that happen all out, being as he never uses UBW to fight her.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

we also only get to see cu fight all out once. According to the data books it took gilgamesh around half a day to defeat him in the fate route.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Rodyle posted:

Re: Saber v Archer

To be fair, we never once actually see that happen all out, being as he never uses UBW to fight her.

UBW would have been little more than an annoyance if Saber was able to go all out.

Pretty much the best way for Archer to fight Saber is how he does it in Hollow Ataraxia. Stay far, far away and snipe at her until she's stunned long enough to headshot Shirou.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011

Dr Pepper posted:

UBW would have been little more than an annoyance if Saber was able to go all out.

UBW lets Archer do, slightly weaker but slightly faster, the exact same thing that Gilgamesh does to consistently wreck her poo poo, unless you're counting Avalon as part of All Out.

In theory she could also just immediately excaliblast when he manifests it but it's a coinflip.

But yes, he is an Archer, sniping is obviously preferable for him.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this

Bakanogami posted:

But if you really think about it, she completely outclasses Rider

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AC_a6m9XnY

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Rodyle posted:

Re: Saber v Archer

To be fair, we never once actually see that happen all out, being as he never uses UBW to fight her.

I'm not sure UBW does much to affect the issue that Archer has nothing that can stop Excalibur and from the looks of things can't take her in close quarters. He gets insta-killed when taken by surprise in the prologue and when Saber reaches the roof in HA. He held his own against Lancer, but Lancer was presumably holding back to gather intel and was himself pushed into using his NP when he fought Saber.

The confrontation in Hollow Ataraxia seems to be the perfect conditions for him- he has miles of range between them, Saber has to protect Shirou, and he gets to open with the first attack and rain down long range Broken Phantasms. And even then he gets defeated if Shirou gets his poo poo together.


Stairmaster posted:

we also only get to see cu fight all out once. According to the data books it took gilgamesh around half a day to defeat him in the fate route.

The poor guy tries to stab Archer and is interrupted. He stabs Shirou, who gets better. He stabs Saber, who dodges it. He fails to stab Gil offscreen. He tries to stab Archer at a distance but it gets blocked. He only lightly stabs Shinji. He successfully stabs himself, but keeps going because of battle continuation. And he tries to stab True Assassin but is eaten by the shadow.

The poor guy's whole thing is stabbing people in the heart but everything keeps going wrong for him.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Bakanogami posted:

He tries to stab Archer at a distance but it gets blocked.

To be fair, Archer was basically completely spent and mostly disabled blocking his spear throw, if Cu wanted to, he probably could've finished him off, but he had done what he came to do.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Darth Walrus posted:

No, it's directly from her myth. Her dad wanted a son, so when she was born he left her on a mountain to die and she got raised by animals. Jack is an amalgamation of thousands of kids exactly like her, and diving inside her world was basically someone unearthing Atalanta's biggest, darkest trauma-button and performing an Irish jig on it.
Eh fair enough. Though Jack being a victim is still an offensively bad idea.

Paracelsus
Apr 6, 2009

bless this post ~kya

Bakanogami posted:

The poor guy's whole thing is stabbing people in the heart but everything keeps going wrong for him.
E-rank Luck stats, man.

AtheistMantis
Oct 5, 2014

Terrible Opinions posted:

Eh fair enough. Though Jack being a victim is still an offensively bad idea.

Eh... Fate/Apo Jack is more like a collection of aborted and murdered children whose resentment formed a mass of wraiths and killed a bunch of women looking for their moms, and those murders got attributed to Jack since they were in the same-ish time period. Sorta like Benkei in FGO.

Best Jack is a Berserker in the so far incomplete Strange Fake.

Since part of the legend is nobody knows who Jack is, it can take on the forms of anybody somebody somewhere theorized to be Jack. Sorta like the Nursery Rhyme of Murder. Also, it's still not the real Jack the Ripper.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Terrible Opinions posted:

Eh fair enough. Though Jack being a victim is still an offensively bad idea.
I mean, the idea of Jack in F/Apo isn't 'jack the ripper did nothing wrong by murdering women.'

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
Jack the reaper’s real identity is a mystery. Rumor and speculation fuels its fame and legend. They each manifest in different classes it is summoned in.

For assasin, it’s base on the legend of the ghosts of unborn babies abandoned by prostitudes and they kill them for revenge.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Nyaa posted:

Jack the reaper’s real identity is a mystery. Rumor and speculation fuels its fame and legend. They each manifest in different classes it is summoned in.

For assasin, it’s base on the legend of the ghosts of unborn babies abandoned by prostitudes and they kill them for revenge.

Not 'revenge', exactly. They just want their mothers back, and the traditional means of Servant nutrition has left them with some severely crossed wires.

Kyte
Nov 19, 2013

Never quacked for this
They want to return to where it was nice and safe, aka the womb. Hence why I forget which of Jack's materials (I think it's her FGO Materials entry) mentions how she might sneak up on you and cut open your belly while you're sleeping.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

my posts are as bad the Current Releases review of Gone Girl

Strange Fake Jack is basically BOB from Twin Peaks and it owns

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
As skilled as Saber is in face-to-face combat, it's shown pretty conclusively IMO that she sucks at dealing with surprises. Diarmuid, Kuzuki, Gilgamesh, Cu, and Kojirou all get the better of her in their first fights. She just happens to survive a lot of the poo poo that should have killed her due to her insane luck stat.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.

:colbert:
Tbf, Rin powered Saber is equal to berserker's stat. Yes, I checked.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D

Endorph posted:

I mean, the idea of Jack in F/Apo isn't 'jack the ripper did nothing wrong by murdering women.'

And to add to this, I'm pretty sure it's more than obvious that the framing of it is, "different motive, still murder!"

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



It's still pretty gross.

dogsicle
Oct 23, 2012

that poo poo happened more than a hundred years ago, i think the kid gloves can come off

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

Terrible Opinions posted:

It's still pretty gross.
tbh im way, way better with it than all the stuff out there that portrays jack the ripper as some slick confident criminal mastermind

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
if anything 'jack the ripper is an inhuman force of nature borne of london's hosed up social issues with regards to gender and class' is way more accurate to both what happened and how it affected people than if she was just some handsome guy in a top hat or whatever

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
They could've just given her shorts.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014

by Games Forum
It's practically the mission statement of the Fate series to take killers from history/mythos and give them sympathetic angles. Why single out Jack in this regard? She's not even the biggest historic killer turned into a cute girl voiced by Cardcaptor Sakura.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015

17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the fifth sixth some day
Even short shorts would've been fine.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



Space Flower posted:

It's practically the mission statement of the Fate series to take killers from history/mythos and give them sympathetic angles. Why single out Jack in this regard? She's not even the biggest historic killer turned into a cute girl voiced by Cardcaptor Sakura.
I don't think there have been any other highly sexual serial killers given a positive make over at least in the TV shows. The only other one present I can think of is Giles who was cast as a monster despite the real life charges possibly being slander.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

I feel like you don't really understand what Fate Jack is if you think it's some sympathetic angle to the actual killer.

Space Flower
Sep 10, 2014

by Games Forum
i heavily question your definition of 'positive'. also if we changed the topic here from 'fate' to 'type moon' i could point out that all of nasu's early writing is built on mysterious, sexually charged serial killing

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Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
Fate Apoc Jack is a child like being that eats hearts and splits people open and that is decidedly not a great thing, I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. Character design is kind of its own bag of worms.

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