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People had many issues with Karen Traviss, but the biggest was probably the Mandalorian fan wank. It didn't help that she went on forums and interacted in really condescending ways with her detractors (see above), which she felt was justified because she was a "journo" and knew about war, and she accumulated a small following of "Fandalorians", some of which were forums mods IIRC, that went around starting poo poo.
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Oct 5, 2018 18:39
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"Talifan".
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Oct 5, 2018 20:10
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The best part of the EU is how each author would invent their own characters, and they'd be super awesome in their books, but then the next author would come and bring in their own and be like no Corran Horn is cooler than Kyle Katarn. NO! Crix Madine is the best NOOOOOO Jacen is Dune like God emperor All culminating in this:  I'm just so sick of all these Star Wars
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Oct 5, 2018 20:35
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Crix Madine was from Return of the Jedi; he's the Rebel general who explains that they've stolen the Imperial shuttle, and scenes were shot where he's commanding the Rebel fleet at Endor in case the Admiral Ackbar costume didn't work. He was actually the first movie character who was officially, permanently killed off in the EU.
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Oct 5, 2018 20:47
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Wheat Loaf posted:Crix Madine was from Return of the Jedi; he's the Rebel general who explains that they've stolen the Imperial shuttle, and scenes were shot where he's commanding the Rebel fleet at Endor in case the Admiral Ackbar costume didn't work. He was actually the first movie character who was officially, permanently killed off in the EU. I know, but he's basically not a character in the movies. He becomes a super perfect everything and then he dies.
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Oct 5, 2018 21:11
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I remember rescuing him from Corellian Congress or whatever when he defected to the rebels in Rogue Squadron 64
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Oct 5, 2018 21:19
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also rescuing him from a prison in Dark Forces
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Oct 5, 2018 22:54
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You could get a fun tv series out of Dark Forces. I'm pretty sure Christopher Neame is still acting!
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Oct 5, 2018 22:59
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Give me a Dark Forces Trilogy Dark Forces, Jedi Knight, Jedi Outcast
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Oct 6, 2018 17:56
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I can’t wait for twenty years in the future when these new Star Wars are completely post mortemed and analyzed and dissected because dang the disconnect between episodes here is super obvious
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Oct 19, 2018 01:42
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Calaveron posted:I can’t wait for twenty years in the future when these new Star Wars are completely post mortemed and analyzed and dissected because dang the disconnect between episodes here is super obvious No more than the originals surely. Those were similarly made up as they went along ("He betrayed and murdered your father," "There is another," "Leia is my sister.") and have drastically different visual/directorial styles (see the in depth ESB/ROJ comparison)
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Oct 19, 2018 14:54
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Szmitten posted:No more than the originals surely. Those were similarly made up as they went along ("He betrayed and murdered your father," "There is another," "Leia is my sister.") and have drastically different visual/directorial styles (see the in depth ESB/ROJ comparison) Uh sir, you're ruining the whole making a mountain out of a molehill aspect of this thread...
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Oct 20, 2018 23:03
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Szmitten posted:No more than the originals surely. Those were similarly made up as they went along ("He betrayed and murdered your father," "There is another," "Leia is my sister.") and have drastically different visual/directorial styles (see the in depth ESB/ROJ comparison) The OT was definitely making up stuff on the fly, but it had two things that separate it from the Sequels in that regard, the first is that Lucas still some kind of general direction for where the story was heading, and sometimes a vague as hell outline is all you really need to separate good storytelling from bad. The second is that no matter what changed or got re-written or retconned in the story it remained thematically consistent. TLJ is thematically schizophrenic both with Star Wars as a whole and even within its own runtime.
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Oct 21, 2018 11:36
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When The Empire Strikes Back was written the Emperor wasn't going to appear until Episode IX and "the other" was Luke's sister from another galaxy and the whole thing was being wrapped in Jedi because the main creative pair were getting a divorce. We all love the originals but let's not put them on pedestals.
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Oct 21, 2018 13:43
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Szmitten posted:We all love the originals but let's not put them on pedestals. You're a few years too late with that message.
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Oct 21, 2018 13:52
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I think Luke was also going to go over to the dark side in VI and that's why they were going to need his sister as the other last hope. Is that right?
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Oct 21, 2018 14:25
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Szmitten posted:When The Empire Strikes Back was written the Emperor wasn't going to appear until Episode IX and "the other" was Luke's sister from another galaxy and the whole thing was being wrapped in Jedi because the main creative pair were getting a divorce. We all love the originals but let's not put them on pedestals. None of this really contradicts what I said though?
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Oct 21, 2018 15:02
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the andromeda defense ('the bad new thing is good; the old thing you like is just as bad') never works, no matter how many times people try it
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Oct 21, 2018 15:29
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The reason people hated the prequels* is because George Lucas subverted their expectations. * A minority, of course, as I have proved numerous times that more people liked the prequels than did not like them and that, vice versa, more people disliked Last Jedi than liked it.
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Oct 21, 2018 16:08
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Wheat Loaf posted:The reason people hated the prequels* is because George Lucas subverted their expectations. actually people liked TLJ
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Oct 21, 2018 16:12
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grieving for Gandalf posted:actually people liked TLJ They did, but they're in the minority.
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Oct 21, 2018 16:21
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Wheat Loaf posted:They did, but they're in the minority. perhaps in comparison to the global population
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Oct 21, 2018 16:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:They did, but they're in the minority. Oh my loving God, what is your obsession with this?
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Oct 21, 2018 16:44
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Timby posted:Oh my loving God, what is your obsession with this? Wheat Loaf is wicked dumb.
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Oct 21, 2018 16:52
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Wheat Loaf posted:They did, but they're in the minority. Considering we have literal research findings on this now, you are coming off super out of touch. And I like your hypocritical stance that only one type of outcry matters, the one you agree with.
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Oct 21, 2018 17:01
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Wheat Loaf posted:I think Luke was also going to go over to the dark side in VI and that's why they were going to need his sister as the other last hope. Is that right? The Secret History of Star Wars book is my big wonderful source that I always recommend but I don't recall that being the case. I don't think there was a version of VI being written without the knowledge that they were ending the trilogy. In fact, the original intention in 1978 was close to what they're doing now and have different directors for all 12+ episodes, but that only lasted for one movie since Empire went overbudget (on Lucas's own money) and he got flakey on the idea.
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Oct 21, 2018 20:47
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I actually think it's for the best that RotJ was actually episodes 6-9 condensed into one movie. The story probably would have suffered from being stretched out that much.
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Oct 22, 2018 02:22
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Sure, the idea came about in the wake of making the biggest movie on the planet and thinking he could make Star Wars episodes forever to help fund Skywalker Ranch (which was originally intended to be a director's/artist's retreat/conference not-quite-Epcot thing before settling into a studio and archive)
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Oct 22, 2018 13:26
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galagazombie posted:I actually think it's for the best that RotJ was actually episodes 6-9 condensed into one movie. The story probably would have suffered from being stretched out that much. Christ the idea of RotJ being stretched out to 4 movies would make the average Netflix series seem tight and concise.
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Oct 22, 2018 15:04
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What's the most detail we have about how Lucas wanted the sequels to go? Earlier this year he was talking about how he would've made the sequels all about midichlorians and the Whills, the aliens who created the Force, but that doesn't really sound like anything else I can think of that I've heard about his "original" plans for VII, VIII and IX so how does it compare to what he's said on the topic in the past?
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Oct 22, 2018 15:11
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Wheat Loaf posted:What's the most detail we have about how Lucas wanted the sequels to go? Earlier this year he was talking about how he would've made the sequels all about midichlorians and the Whills, the aliens who created the Force, but that doesn't really sound like anything else I can think of that I've heard about his "original" plans for VII, VIII and IX so how does it compare to what he's said on the topic in the past? Only the vaguest of ideas, but basically Luke would fail (doing something, not sure what, because the Emperor wouldn't have appeared yet) in Episode VI and go into hiding, and decades later a girl from another galaxy (Yoda's "another") would come and be trained by an older Luke, and she would take down the Emperor in Episode IX. He didn't really script it out or anything, so that's all we've really got. As mentioned earlier, when ESB nearly bankrupted him, he scrapped that whole idea and had the final confrontation with the Emperor happen in Episode VI, and handwaved the "another" by saying it was Leia. After that, no one knows what his ideas would have been for a potential sequel trilogy. His comments recently about going microscopic or whatever with the next trilogy is certainly the first he's mentioned of it. I know he was planning on making Episode VII himself, and was talking to Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher, and Harrison Ford about being in it, and using that movie to prove Star Wars could still be profitable and then sell the franchise. But Disney apparently didn't need the proof and bought it before he got around to it.
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Oct 22, 2018 16:16
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I say let George make his midichlorian osmosis jones movie as a standalone. Scrape up some cash for the old man
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Oct 22, 2018 17:24
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Ingmar terdman posted:I say let George make his midichlorian osmosis jones movie as a standalone. Scrape up some cash for the old man George Lucas apparently has a net worth of more than five billion dollars so I don't think he's too hard-up for movie-making money.
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Oct 22, 2018 17:28
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Talking about original plans is kind-of pointless, because things changed constantly. Star Wars began as two trilogies, but suddenly exploded into three quadrilogies (because Star Wars was a massive hit and Lucas got ambitious). Each trilogy would have its own prologue film - so there would be five prequels and A New Hope would be Episode 6. That 12-film plan was only briefly considered, however, as Lucas quickly decided that the prologue films were redundant. That's how there ended up being three trilogies: the Clone Wars trilogy, the Star Wars trilogy, and an implicit ____ Wars Trilogy. Vader was apparently always intended to die at the end of the whole thing so, with the addition of a third trilogy, they needed a new ending for Episode 6. This is why Boba Fett was invented and heavily promoted as a mini-Vader. The Star Wars trilogy was going to end with the defeat of Boba Fett, and the unnamed ____ Wars trilogy would take place 20 years later. That's when Luke's sister (named Nellith, in early drafts) would show up. But ____ Wars was not going to be about her per se. It would be about "the character who survives [Episode 6], and his adventures". That quote from Lucas was kinda cryptic, and doesn't necessarily refer to Luke. From what we know now, it could be Vader or even Han. Of course, all this was jettisoned before the rough draft of Episode 6's script was even written, and Star Wars ended up being just one trilogy. That's why Fett was killed so unceremoniously: with the focus back on Vader and the Emperor, Fett was redundant.
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Oct 22, 2018 18:55
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My favourite tidbit is the idea that the film was going to either be spoken or dubbed into Japanese with subtitles to enhance the alienness.
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Oct 22, 2018 20:26
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Szmitten posted:My favourite tidbit is the idea that the film was going to either be spoken or dubbed into Japanese with subtitles to enhance the alienness. Right - if you go back far enough, things are unrecognizable. The stuff in my post refers specifically to the plan for the series circa 1979, when Star Wars was a hit and they actually began working on the sequels. Plot speculation is especially futile because Lucas’ outlines were obviously thematic. So while Vader was perhaps always meant to sacrifice himself and kill Palpatine, Lucas apparently toyed with the idea that Luke would kill Vader and become the new Vader in Episode 6 - literally taking Vader’s mask and assuming his identity. In other words, if you permit a little speculation, Luke would turn Evil and then battle his sister in Episode 9. As for who Luke’s sister would be, consider how Lucas kept returning to the idea of a child raised by Wookiees/Ewoks. This includes concept art of a kid Han Solo in the prequels, and of course you have the Ewok movies. Most obviously, Leia gets adopted by the Ewoks too. If Return Of The Jedi is a condensed version of Episodes 6, 7, 8 and 9, with Leia Organa and Nellith Skywalker being merged into one character, then isn’t the true identity of Luke’s sister ultimately Cindel?
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Oct 22, 2018 21:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Right - if you go back far enough, things are unrecognizable. The stuff in my post refers specifically to the plan for the series circa 1979, when Star Wars was a hit and they actually began working on the sequels. It's kind of interesting that Nellith and Darth Luke effectively re-emerged as Rey and Kylo.
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Oct 22, 2018 22:45
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For all that people used to say "Episode VII, VIII and IX should have been the Thrawn trilogy" I think that the old EU story that felt most like it could have been VII, VIII and IX was the Dark Empire comics. I remember reading once that Lucas said it was his favourite EU story or his favourite Star Wars story he didn't write himself. I don't know if that's true or not but I can buy it; the Thrawn trilogy is more of a military sci-fi story than the movies ever were while Dark Empire even has dark side Luke.
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Oct 22, 2018 23:06
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Hodgepodge posted:It's kind of interesting that Nellith and Darth Luke effectively re-emerged as Rey and Kylo. It's not just that they re-emerged. It goes back to one of my earlier points: that The Force Awakens is formally a remake of Return Of The Jedi, basically ignoring or hastily retconning everything that happens after Jabba is killed. Since we know that Return Of The Jedi is actually four episodes hastily smushed together, it's pretty clear that the whole Jabba section is Episode 6. This segment was originally a feature-length film that would end with Han rescued, Boba Fett and/or Vader killed, and Luke turning Darth. (In the actual film, of course, Luke flirts with darkness and assassinates Jabba here.) So, after the 20-year time jump, I speculate that Episode 7 was going to be about the rebels going on a mission to Endor and accidentally discovering Nellith living among the Ewoks. Nellith would then join the rebellion and be trained as a Jedi (by Leia?), while Darth Luke searches for his lost sister. Then you would end the _____ Wars trilogy with the same throne room battle, except with Darth Luke sacrificing himself to kill Palpatine and save Nellith. In the Disney version, it's roughly the same thing. After Jabba dies, we jump ahead 40 years, and the rebels go on a secret mission to Tatooine. They find Rey living among the Jawas. Rey gets trained as a Jedi, we end up with the same throne room battle, etc. So, in a weird way, Episode 9 is already done. JJ's next film is, in formal terms, Episode 11 or something. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 00:18
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Szmitten posted:No more than the originals surely. Those were similarly made up as they went along ("He betrayed and murdered your father," "There is another," "Leia is my sister.") and have drastically different visual/directorial styles (see the in depth ESB/ROJ comparison) I mean, the original trilogy and to an extent the prequel trilogy were disconnected because Lucas got entirely too ambitious and weird with his ideas, while this new trilogy feels like it's disconnected because JJ Abrams who just loves to smell his own farts when it comes to setting up mysteries with no clear resolution and because the other guy with the dainty hands wanted to do something different and then it's going back to JJ Abrams who again, mystery farts
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Oct 23, 2018 00:51
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