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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's not just that they re-emerged. It goes back to one of my earlier points: that The Force Awakens is formally a remake of Return Of The Jedi, basically ignoring or hastily retconning everything that happens after Jabba is killed. Would you say Maz is, thematically, a hutt then?
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Oct 23, 2018 01:43
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Sinding Johansson posted:Would you say Maz is, thematically, a hutt then? Well, fun fact: in the Phantom Menace script, Lucas clarifies that “Hutt” isn’t a race or species. It’s just a semi-generic term for a crime boss - one who’s part of a crime syndicate known as “The Hutts”. In that way, Maz could literally be a Hutt. But Jabba is already, thematically, Jabba. For the ST to actually function, narratively, you need to jump directly from Empire Strikes Back to Force Awakens, maybe treating the Tatooine segment as a little interstitial short film. (Like the Boba Fett cartoon bridging A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back.) Last Jedi does include some attempts at addressing the rest of Return Of The Jedi, but poorly - mainly through exposition. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 02:11
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I was always confused how episode 6 ends with Vader's redemption and yet he's the most hated man in the galaxy in the ST (not, say Tarkin?), unless Vader is hated for demolishing Luke's illusions about the Jedi/rebellion ie the ending of V. The ST, excluding Rogue One, then leaves no alternative which then explains a lot.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:47
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Sinding Johansson posted:I was always confused how episode 6 ends with Vader's redemption and yet he's the most hated man in the galaxy in the ST (not, say Tarkin?), unless Vader is hated for demolishing Luke's illusions about the Jedi/rebellion ie the ending of V. The ST, excluding Rogue One, then leaves no alternative which then explains a lot.
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Oct 23, 2018 03:53
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Okay, but without familiarity with the EU, the only mass murders Vader took part in were essentially military operations, the exception being the murder of the sand people, which was Anakin and who I don't think were much beloved. Galen et al. built the Death Star, Tarkin and the Emperor used it to rule by fear, Vader had no part in that. Galactic Fascism itself was by all accounts incredibly popular.
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Oct 23, 2018 04:01
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Return of the Jedi didn't happen in the ST continuity.
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Oct 23, 2018 04:16
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Angry Salami posted:Return of the Jedi didn't happen in the ST continuity. Specifically, it happened in the plot but not in the actual narrative, like the time Anakin fell into that nest of gundarks.
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Oct 23, 2018 05:00
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Sinding Johansson posted:Okay, but without familiarity with the EU, the only mass murders Vader took part in were essentially military operations, the exception being the murder of the sand people, which was Anakin and who I don't think were much beloved. Galen et al. built the Death Star, Tarkin and the Emperor used it to rule by fear, Vader had no part in that. Galactic Fascism itself was by all accounts incredibly popular. One could say that the sequels, being the cargo cult attempts that they are, treat Vader in-universe is the same as Vader in-real-life. Where since Vader is famous to the audience (and pop-culture at large) he is treated as such by the characters in the story despite being mostly unknown to even the Empires bigwigs in ANH, supervising some remote search and destroy task force in ESB, and being some kind of emergency work foreman on a top secret project in RotJ. It seems the only people who were really aware of his existence were Imperial personel he was called in to supervise.
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Oct 23, 2018 06:29
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galagazombie posted:despite being mostly unknown to even the Empires bigwigs in ANH, supervising some remote search and destroy task force in ESB, and being some kind of emergency work foreman on a top secret project in RotJ. It seems the only people who were really aware of his existence were Imperial personel he was called in to supervise. There's literally no basis for this. There was no reason to think that all those generals at the round-table had no idea who he was. There was only the one general who challenged his "religion," which means he was known to them at least by the horror stories they'd heard. He obviously didn't keep that opinion for long. As for the search and destroy -- yea he went in with the shock troops to tear poo poo up because he was good at it and probably liked it. He clearly had command of the entire fleet sent to Hoth. Every commander who talks to him is terrified of him because he killed all their predecessors. Dude made a name for himself.
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Oct 23, 2018 07:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's not just that they re-emerged. It goes back to one of my earlier points: that The Force Awakens is formally a remake of Return Of The Jedi, basically ignoring or hastily retconning everything that happens after Jabba is killed. Rey literally living with the Jawas would have been a sick callback to the PT, though. And it would have given her a legitimately distinctive perspective. You're right, though. Evidently themes like Luke's fall to the Dark Side needed to play out in more detail than RotJ allowed for the series to move forward. e: from what we've seen, it seems clear that Luke never told the story of what actually happened in the Throne Room to the Galaxy at large. If so, that decision marks the actual moment he fell to the Dark Side. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 07:59
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Sinding Johansson posted:I was always confused how episode 6 ends with Vader's redemption and yet he's the most hated man in the galaxy in the ST (not, say Tarkin?), unless Vader is hated for demolishing Luke's illusions about the Jedi/rebellion ie the ending of V. I wonder about that. Luke presumably comes back from the Death Star and says, "It's all cool, I redeemed Darth Vader!" and people are probably going to say, "gently caress off, he helped to blow up our planet!" or, "Oh, you "sensed" that there was good in him? Who the hell are you?" People probably think he's trying to be a Vader revisionist like people in the real world do with leaders from the losing side who were "honourable" like Robert E. Lee or Erwin Rommel or whoever you like, which I think is an amusing prospect.  I don't know, I guess I enjoy the idea that the hero has this great personal triumph and nobody really cares because it means nothing to them.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:23
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Anyway, to throw one more opinion onto the bonfire regarding Episode IX and the ST -- I really wish Rian Johnson or someone qualified who isn't JJ would have directed it. One poster said that TLJ made the ST seem schizophrenic, and while I feel that is untrue having watched them back to back recently, I really enjoyed the fact that TLJ set everything up to go in a new direction, and I'm afraid that won't be the case now with JJ Abrams at the helm again. If he doesn't move the story forward while being faithful to TLJ, it's going to be a massive dud. Hell, I keep going back and forth on whether or not this thing should be turned into a quadrilogy. I think the way TLJ ended, it felt like the end of the first half of a grand story. It's almost like we got the Resistance off the field and they gotta regroup during halftime and find out a way to come back and win. I want to see the new direction from Rian Johnson's vision. Maybe use IX to wrap up the majority of the OT character's stories, develop the Rey / Kylo thing more (it seems like it needs more time to blossom), show the Resistance get some wins and build back up, and then have the ultimate show-down in Episode X. Otherwise you're going to need a three and a half hour film to make things believable, and we know Disney would never allow that because it would hamstring the profit margins. But mostly I just want to reiterate that there are reliable directors out there that aren't loving JJ Abrams. It would be great to have some poo poo wrapped up, questions answered, etc. The dude is notorious for introducing great ideas and then bailing on them because he has treatment-resistant ADHD or some poo poo. He's great with characters and drama, but I have zero faith in him wrapping this trilogy up in even a satisfactory manner.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:26
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Maybe the Death Star in this one will be a secret giant Death Star the size of an actual star called "Galaxykiller Base" which Kylo has built outside the galaxy which will destroy the galaxy when he fires it.
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Oct 23, 2018 08:37
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Hodgepodge posted:You're right, though. Evidently themes like Luke's fall to the Dark Side needed to play out in more detail than RotJ allowed for the series to move forward. Why do you feel this way? Do you feel this was necessary regarding his future failures in TLJ? I feel like it works well enough as it is, because the guilt he has for thinking about killing Kylo is more potent since he had never gone that dark before. It's like the guy does everything right and is a galactic hero and then years later during his mid-life he fucks up more than he ever has in his life, and he's not used to loving up that majorly, so he shuts down and goes into hiding and is jaded as hell. quote:e: from what we've seen, it seems clear that Luke never told the story of what actually happened in the Throne Room to the Galaxy at large. If so, that decision marks the actual moment he fell to the Dark Side. Why would that be a thing? Wasn't it incredibly personal and not much of a need-to-know kind of event for those who weren't personally involved? The important story was that the Rebellion essentially won the war and liberated the known regions of the galaxy. The Luke Skywalker legend is great for raising your kids to have good values and poo poo but it's not important at all compared to the fact that the Space Nazis were finally defeated and you can vote for your government, egalitarianism, and all the good stuff that might come with living in a Republic. Wheat Loaf posted:Maybe the Death Star in this one will be a secret giant Death Star the size of an actual star called "Galaxykiller Base" which Kylo has built outside the galaxy which will destroy the galaxy when he fires it. jfc if there's another superweapon i'm going to pull my hair out during that drat premiere screening You know what I might be cool with the Resistance going all "if you cant beat em join em" and developing one, but then again it would be against their entire philosophy / fight against tyranny. There were rumors that this was in the script for Episode VII as like a race to develop a superweapon, obviously inspired by the Manhattan Project, but they said "gently caress it" and just went with remaking ANH. Preston Waters fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 08:45
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Preston Waters posted:You know what I might be cool with the Resistance going all "if you cant beat em join em" and developing one, but then again it would be against their entire philosophy / fight against tyranny. There were rumors that this was in the script for Episode VII as like a race to develop a superweapon, obviously inspired by the Manhattan Project, but they said "gently caress it" and just went with remaking ANH. I recall that the Resistance were at one stage in the story's development going to reveal that they already had a superweapon which could disable the First Order's star destroyers which they were going to use to let the important characters infiltrate the Death Star.
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Oct 23, 2018 09:20
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Preston Waters posted:Why do you feel this way? Do you feel this was necessary regarding his future failures in TLJ? I feel like it works well enough as it is, because the guilt he has for thinking about killing Kylo is more potent since he had never gone that dark before. It's like the guy does everything right and is a galactic hero and then years later during his mid-life he fucks up more than he ever has in his life, and he's not used to loving up that majorly, so he shuts down and goes into hiding and is jaded as hell. I think you answered your own question, in a way. A character who has always been right, always been the hero, isn't resilient to guilt. So he lets his guilt define him and runs away, becoming bitter and twisted, and even his attempt at atonement is smug and cynical. Ironic; he could see the good even in Darth Vader, but could not redeem himself. quote:Why would that be a thing? Wasn't it incredibly personal and not much of a need-to-know kind of event for those who weren't personally involved? The important story was that the Rebellion essentially won the war and liberated the known regions of the galaxy. The Luke Skywalker legend is great for raising your kids to have good values and poo poo but it's not important at all compared to the fact that the Space Nazis were finally defeated and you can vote for your government, egalitarianism, and all the good stuff that might come with living in a Republic. For one thing, there is simple honesty. If he didn't tell the real story, that means he claimed the credit for defeating Vader and the Emperor for himself. That's nakedly evil, a lie calculated to inflate his reputation and conceal a heroic sacrifice which saved his life. And the only other apparent motive is distrust of the public's ability to handle a complex truth. You can't build a democracy on that sort of contempt for the intelligence of the voters. And there is furthermore the spiritual significance of Vader's sacrifice. What Vader did proved the Jedi dogma about the Dark Side wrong: it is possible to turn back; anyone can be redeemed. This sort of spiritual message is of immense importance; it necessitates a spirituality based on compassion. While the obvious allusion is to Christianity, in the East, Buddhism plays a similar role. A popular theme of Buddhist stories is of million-year-old demons coming to the Buddha to learn compassion and dharma. These are the two figures who have changed the way people think for the better more than any other; each changed entire civilizations to such a degree that their teachings are followed thousands of years later. Only a small number of similar figures whose significance I may be understating and the development of science really compare in terms of impact on humanity. This ties Luke's private and public failures together: he could not even apply the lesson of his father's sacrifice on his behalf to himself, his failure was rooted in seeing Ben as too far gone to save, and ultimately, that was due to lying about what happened in the throne room rather than acknowledging and learning from the most important moment of his life, thus denying the entire galaxy a message capable of changing it entirely.
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Oct 23, 2018 09:26
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Wheat Loaf posted:I recall that the Resistance were at one stage in the story's development going to reveal that they already had a superweapon which could disable the First Order's star destroyers which they were going to use to let the important characters infiltrate the Death Star. according to abrams, this is coming back in episode 9 as that whole plot is where they're pulling the re-used footage of leia from
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Oct 23, 2018 09:43
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:according to abrams, this is coming back in episode 9 as that whole plot is where they're pulling the re-used footage of leia from Seems predictable enough. They'll need something that can stop Galaxykiller Base.
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Oct 23, 2018 10:42
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Hodgepodge posted:For one thing, there is simple honesty. If he didn't tell the real story, that means he claimed the credit for defeating Vader and the Emperor for himself. That's nakedly evil, a lie calculated to inflate his reputation and conceal a heroic sacrifice which saved his life. And the only other apparent motive is distrust of the public's ability to handle a complex truth. You can't build a democracy on that sort of contempt for the intelligence of the voters.
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Oct 23, 2018 13:14
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Strange Matter posted:Also, doesn't Rey directly compare her feelings about Ben to Luke sensing good in Vader (I may be misremembering)? this never happens
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Oct 23, 2018 13:18
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Strange Matter posted:Also, doesn't Rey directly compare her feelings about Ben to Luke sensing good in Vader (I may be misremembering)? And she's some nobody from nowhere, so that story clearly propagated throughout galactic culture. Rey arrives in Ireland (it's absolutely Ireland - it has nuns and everything) believing that there's no hope for Kylo and changes her mind when she learns more about his backstory with Luke; she refers to Luke "sensing good" in Darth Vader when she's questioning why he thinks the Jedi don't deserve to exist, I believe during his first lesson.
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Oct 23, 2018 13:22
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Wheat Loaf posted:Rey arrives in Ireland believing that there's no hope for Kylo and changes her mind when she learns more about his backstory with Luke; she refers to Luke "sensing good" in Darth Vader when she's questioning why he thinks the Jedi don't deserve to exist, I believe during his first lesson. So the entire galaxy is aware of what went down in the throne room?
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Oct 23, 2018 13:23
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kidkissinger posted:So the entire galaxy is aware of what went down in the throne room? Part of "the legend", I suppose. Rey seems to be aware of something. People might know Luke redeemed Vader but I'm not sure if they know Vader was Luke's father. There's some book I haven't read and never will read where people discover Leia is Vader's daughter but I'm not sure if they also know she's Luke's brother. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 13:25
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Actually on further consideration Rey could have learned about that from Leia. Luke tells Leia in RotJ about sensing good in Vader, so if that's not a part of the Legend (which it would make sense not to be) then she could have still found out about it. Vader's redemption runs counter to the narrative that the Rebellion would likely want to spread, that being the Empire was pure, irredeemable evil and Luke single-handedly defeated both Vader and Palpatine. Depending on how cynical you want to be you could easily make an argument for this being their course of action and the source of Luke's angst. EDIT: And even if they didn't, it probably wouldn't do any good. Anyone who knew who Vader was either wouldn't believe it or wouldn't care if he had a deathbed conversion to the Light. He's still that dude who helped blow-up Alderaan, personally hunted the Jedi to extinction, and then choked people to death and made jokes about it afterward. Strange Matter fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 13:40
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Well, I suppose one must wonder who Rey heard about it from. The obvious answer is she overheard some space drunks when she was stuck on Jakkooine for the better part of 20 years. But personally I think it's more likely that she was told by her secret Jedi parents who Abrams will almost certainly reveal in Episode IX.
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Oct 23, 2018 13:47
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The key lie in Lukes’s story is that he omits the part where Vader did all the work and killed the emperor, whereas Luke’s only achievement was to renounce the Jedi.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:01
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Wheat Loaf posted:Seems predictable enough. They'll need something that can stop Galaxykiller Base. Time for the sun crusher to shine! The best part of TLJ is how it left the story in such a state that (to me) there is no clear easy path forward. Which is a pretty exciting place to be in. Unless they take the cheap way out, add in a large time skip and suddenly both sides are back to full power again. Considering the last batch of movies I fully expect Disney to take the easiest least creative way out.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:05
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:according to abrams, this is coming back in episode 9 as that whole plot is where they're pulling the re-used footage of leia from Have a source for that? I've heard him say that unused footage from TFA would be where they pull her scenes from, but not what the content of those scenes are. I've never heard the superweapon scenes were even shot.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The key lie in Lukes’s story is that he omits the part where Vader did all the work and killed the emperor, whereas Luke’s only achievement was to renounce the Jedi.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:18
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If a junkie who did horrible poo poo for 20 years suddenly got clean, how would you feel about him?
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Oct 23, 2018 15:14
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I figure most people, on hearing that Vader killed the Emperor, would think "Yeah, that sounds like what I've heard about the Sith".
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Oct 23, 2018 15:28
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Angry Salami posted:I figure most people, on hearing that Vader killed the Emperor, would think "Yeah, that sounds like what I've heard about the Sith". I doubt most people have even heard about the Sith. They're believed to have been "extinct for a millennium" by Phantom Menace and the only person who ever mentions the Sith who isn't a Jedi is Palpatine. There's that one bit in the Revenge of the Sith novelisation where the Jedi show up to arrest him and his response to, "The oppression of the Sith will never return!" is approximately, "I didn't think my religious beliefs disqualified me from holding office."
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Oct 23, 2018 15:35
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Strange Matter posted:I think that's a little disingenuous. Luke defeated Vader in a physical confrontation, and then turned around and defeated Palpatine on the spiritual level. Beating up Vader wasn’t a good thing - and Palpatine wasn’t actually spiritually defeated by Luke, given that he immediately reappeared as Snoke.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:07
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Luke says, "I am a Jedi like my father before me," but failed to consider that his father was going around killing children long before he stopped being a Jedi. 
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Oct 23, 2018 16:13
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Beating up Vader wasn’t a good thing - and Palpatine wasn’t actually spiritually defeated by Luke, given that he immediately reappeared as Snoke. It takes him watching the events of Revenge of the Sith happening again to realize his fundamental mistake, leading to his decision that the Jedi should just be dissolved permanently.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:23
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Strange Matter posted:Snoke's appearance is a failure of follow-through. Luke could have taken the lesson of the throne-room and applied it externally, but instead he was party to the creation of a regime no better than the original Old Republic that allowed Palpatine to take over right under their nose, and in-fact cheered openly when he did so. It's telling that the First Order, a fascist and fundamentalist dictatorship, is opposed by The Resistance, and not, like, the actual New Republic military. The New Republic thinks that since they killed the bad-guy and blew up his super weapon everything's fine but fail to make the choices needed to prevent it from happening again. Luke does the same thing. He tries to take the half-learned lessons he picked up over a couple weeks from Obi-Wan and Yoda and reconstruct the Jedi Order and ends up making everything worse. But "the Jedi" (old Luke/Rey) are still the only thing standing in the way of "evil" while Snoke and his followers would rise back to power whether there are Jedi or not, their existence actually doesn't matter in regards to bad things happening. I know it's a favorite theory around here that he Jedi somehow create this cycle but it's not backed up by what really happens. It's not like getting rid off the Jedi stops the force from being a thing in the SW uniserve or means that suddenly there won't be more bad guys. Even at worst the Jedi are just ignorant/incompetent but their complete absence would be a far worse outcome for everyone. It's overall also a weird message to basically say "hey just give up on being the good guys because you will never be perfect and because things can go wrong just don't even try". That's one of the main reasons why I don't like that Luke is another failed attempt of the Jedi. It carries the message of "nothing can ever get better" far too much. If you really follow through on this then SW has become nihilism and you can (now) certainly read SW this way because the overall story does seem to be in a loop and there can't be any progress. Kind of ironic to get such a message from a Disney product.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:58
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LinkesAuge posted:But "the Jedi" (old Luke/Rey) are still the only thing standing in the way of "evil" while Snoke and his followers would rise back to power whether there are Jedi or not, their existence actually doesn't matter in regards to bad things happening. I know it's a favorite theory around here that he Jedi somehow create this cycle but it's not backed up by what really happens. It's not like getting rid off the Jedi stops the force from being a thing in the SW uniserve or means that suddenly there won't be more bad guys. Even at worst the Jedi are just ignorant/incompetent but their complete absence would be a far worse outcome for everyone. The most intriguing thing about TLJ to me is that it actually ends on a note that things can change. Luke is terrified of Rey because she leans directly into the Dark Side on the island and all of his teachings and experience tells him that's a recipe for disaster-- but she literally dives into the abyss and comes out uncorrupted on the other side. I've heard some people complain that all this is evidence that Rey is an perfect mary-su character but to me it says that the dogma that Luke and the Jedi believed isn't true, and the way forward doesn't require it. Luke gets half-way there in saying that you don't need The Jedi as an institution to benefit from knowledge of The Force. My worry is that Ep 9 isn't going to capitalize on this and it's going to be just Empire vs Rebels, Sith vs Jedi again.
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Oct 23, 2018 17:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Beating up Vader wasn’t a good thing - and Palpatine wasn’t actually spiritually defeated by Luke, given that he immediately reappeared as Snoke. Snoke is a pale shadow of Palpatine at best, though. He's all snoke and mirrors 
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Oct 23, 2018 17:18
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While we’re having the discussion, here is my biggest issue with the sequel trilogy: Because of the low bar they had to clear (just make it feel like Star Wars again) they gave us a movie that starts with the status quo from before RotJ having already been restored. An interesting story would have been to show us HOW we got there - a nascent First Order obtaining power over the course of the movie, but instead they just go “hey it’s Star Wars again! There are stormtroopers and an empire and a rebellion and a desert planet and...” It dampens the ending of Return of the Jedi and just made the movie feel like such a retread.
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Oct 23, 2018 17:42
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Blast Fantasto posted:While we’re having the discussion, here is my biggest issue with the sequel trilogy:
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Oct 23, 2018 17:54
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