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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
One thing is for sure - the depiction of the GDR is still and dreamlike (nostalgic, even), and the depiction of the DDR is Nazi-ridden, chaotic and grimy.

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bullet3
Nov 8, 2011
Oof what a miscalculation. Self-serious, ridiculously overstuffed with allusions to real-world events that don't go anywhere and feel shallow. It seems dour and embarrased to be a horror movie for most of the runtime, then when it does go full tilt, it usually comes off as laughable and goofy.
The worst kind of pretentious nonsense.

Really makes you appreciate great experimental genre movies like Neon Demon and Under the Skin, that could so easily go off the rails like this one does.

Zwabu
Aug 7, 2006

I mostly agree with the above, although I do want to watch a whole film with Tilda Swinton teaching students the essence of dance, painting, auto maintenance, baking cupcakes or any other drat thing.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
At what point does it "feel embarassed to be a horror movie"?

warez
Mar 13, 2003

HOLA FANTA DONT CHA WANNA?

mary had a little clam posted:

Is there a good reading on why Bader-Meinhoff was always going on in the background? I'm aware of the phenomenon (when you learn something new and suddenly see it everywhere) but it seemed like the filmmakers were using the event/group itself as a thematic reference. Any ideas?

Yeah, I’m curious about this too. The reasonings I’ve read (“terrorism as a type of performance”) feel inadequate. I read that the cell dissolves in time with the coven narratively, and with the divided Berlin setting it could be intended as a reflection of the main narrative. I might need to watch again and see.

Choco1980
Feb 22, 2013

I fell in love with a Video Nasty

warez posted:

Yeah, I’m curious about this too. The reasonings I’ve read (“terrorism as a type of performance”) feel inadequate. I read that the cell dissolves in time with the coven narratively, and with the divided Berlin setting it could be intended as a reflection of the main narrative. I might need to watch again and see.

Yeah, that latter bit is how I took things. It feels pretty metaphorically representative of the plot itself, though I suspect if I knew more about the actual event I could say in far greater detail.

Blast Fantasto
Sep 18, 2007

USAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
I could watch another hour of Tilda Swinton as Madame Blanc. She was awesome in that role and I truly bought the love between her and Suzy.

warez
Mar 13, 2003

HOLA FANTA DONT CHA WANNA?
I would probably have disliked this without Tilda. Dakota Johnson was pretty dull. I didn’t get much of a sense of transformation from her as the story developed, just... flat.

discoukulele
Jan 16, 2010

Yes Sir, I Can Boogie
CAROLINE!
*turns and stares into the camera*

chime_on
Jul 27, 2001

mary had a little clam posted:

Is there a good reading on why Bader-Meinhoff was always going on in the background? I'm aware of the phenomenon (when you learn something new and suddenly see it everywhere) but it seemed like the filmmakers were using the event/group itself as a thematic reference. Any ideas?

warez posted:

Yeah, I’m curious about this too. The reasonings I’ve read (“terrorism as a type of performance”) feel inadequate. I read that the cell dissolves in time with the coven narratively, and with the divided Berlin setting it could be intended as a reflection of the main narrative. I might need to watch again and see.

Um, well, this isn't particularly elegant or anything, but there are a lot of themes of division in the movie-- East and West Germany, Markos and Blanc, the Amish and the Mennonites... a lot of split pairs (pears).

That Dang Dad
Apr 23, 2003

Well I am
over-fucking-whelmed...
Young Orc
Stuart Wellington (one of the hosts of the Flophouse) mentioned on Twitter that for him, it played into the themes of young versus old, since I guess the RAF was popular with young leftists and hated by olds in Germany at the time.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

I just got back from seeing this and gotta say it was really really good. The absence of color is just as severe as to much.

All around great I thought.

discoukulele
Jan 16, 2010

Yes Sir, I Can Boogie
Just got back in from seeing it a second time with my roommate. It made a lot more sense this time.

Also, this time around we both loved the fact that Susie just throws her poo poo on the ground on the way to the final ritual like she owns the place.

sector_corrector
Jan 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo
I loved this. Best part? No wops (by this I mean Italians, who it's impossible to be racist against unless you're some sort of idiot who volunteers to moderate an Internet forum).

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

sector_corrector
Jan 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo

warez posted:

Yeah, I’m curious about this too. The reasonings I’ve read (“terrorism as a type of performance”) feel inadequate. I read that the cell dissolves in time with the coven narratively, and with the divided Berlin setting it could be intended as a reflection of the main narrative. I might need to watch again and see.

This is loving stupid, and speaks to why these forums are so poo poo at discussing media, which is that they don't really understand how to talk about media beyond druthers and preferences, because the users are brain damaged dullards conditioned by Warhammer fiction.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

Sir , this is a spook a doodle thread.

That Dang Dad
Apr 23, 2003

Well I am
over-fucking-whelmed...
Young Orc

sector_corrector posted:

This is loving stupid, and speaks to why these forums are so poo poo at discussing media, which is that they don't really understand how to talk about media beyond druthers and preferences, because the users are brain damaged dullards conditioned by Warhammer fiction.

Dullard here: how does discussing artistic/narrative choices and how they intersect with the films themes come across to you as "druthers and preferences"? Not only am I curious how the Bader-Meinhof gang informs the themes of Suspiria, I'm also curious at the filmmaker's deliberate choice to use drab colors (but interesting textures) in opposition to the original's garish colors. For me, it made me think about how buttoned-up subgroups deal with the crush of modern progress (or progression is maybe more accurate in the timeframe of the film). Obviously the film is about an ancient coven, but I think "ballet school" could also be considered an antiquated, repressed group along with Mennonites, etc. When colorless tradition (religion, etc) meets a brutalist future, what happens to that dangerous hot-blooded spark of youth? When the past is drab and the future looks drab, what is there left to do but wreck poo poo now (RAF, Head Exploding Death Avatar)?

Anyway when you get off probation, come back and discuss media in a better way with us, I want to git gud at media analysis.

warez
Mar 13, 2003

HOLA FANTA DONT CHA WANNA?

sector_corrector posted:

This is loving stupid, and speaks to why these forums are so poo poo at discussing media, which is that they don't really understand how to talk about media beyond druthers and preferences, because the users are brain damaged dullards conditioned by Warhammer fiction.

Ok cool!

discoukulele
Jan 16, 2010

Yes Sir, I Can Boogie
I forgot to mention, during my second watch, I realized that you can hear someone listening to Klaus Nomi's Total Eclipse of the Sun the first time we see the dorm hall and now I love this movie even more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmLk2vSXXtk

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours
I thought that's what that was.

I, Butthole
Jun 30, 2007

Begin the operations of the gas chambers, gas schools, gas universities, gas libraries, gas museums, gas dance halls, and gas threads, etcetera.
I DEMAND IT

mary had a little clam posted:

Is there a good reading on why Bader-Meinhoff was always going on in the background? I'm aware of the phenomenon (when you learn something new and suddenly see it everywhere) but it seemed like the filmmakers were using the event/group itself as a thematic reference. Any ideas?

It mirrors the doctor's discovery of the coven, after dismissing Patricia's diary and then investigating more it starts invading his life. Like when he leaves the Tanzakademie and sees one of the witches across the street transform into another woman.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

The shot of a mirror breaking silently on the ground and the crash/search zoom of the old man's garden to reveal him sitting alone near a tree eating an eclair were italian as gently caress.

I, Butthole
Jun 30, 2007

Begin the operations of the gas chambers, gas schools, gas universities, gas libraries, gas museums, gas dance halls, and gas threads, etcetera.
I DEMAND IT
So, was the shambling corpse that chased Sara when she found Patricia definitely Olga? It looked like it was walking on legs without feet, but it could have just been the lighting. If so, there's a lot of focus on hands/feet that'd be an interesting angle to focus on.

Thinking about it, this is almost an (appropriately) mirrored version of Suspiria; instead of opening with a murder, it takes a third of the runtime. The mystery is presented up front. The beige brutalism playing against art deco. The ending. It's this slightly familiar but odd, distorted negative to the original, and it's better for it. The giallo diversions are fantastic though, although I'm middling on the dragging shutter effect, and I'd love a non-filtered version of the climax - it got a surprising MA15 rating here, when watching it I thought it easily would have nabbed an R18.

Power of Pecota
Aug 4, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!

I just want more of the dream montages, those kicked serious rear end.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

I can't wait for the inevitable gif of the German teacher with the mole on her face smiling and nodding like Jack Nicholson from the Departed.

Spatulater bro!
Aug 19, 2003

Punch! Punch! Punch!

This movie floored me. There's so much to unpack, I think I need to see it again before I really grasp it. That sixth act shook me the gently caress up.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004
Yeah, I came out feeling like I'd need to fully unpack it over a few viewings over a few years.

Initial instinct is that all the stuff that felt a bit extraneous the first time around will bear fruit on multiple viewings. But we'll see.

Iverron
May 13, 2012

Something I noticed upon a second viewing: after the performance of Volk we get several lingering shots of Susie on the floor “sigh”ing and a single tear that mimics another shot of her in the ritual room later. Still a lot to unpack, but was looking specifically for scenes that hint at Mother Suspiriorum.

Spatulater bro!
Aug 19, 2003

Punch! Punch! Punch!

feedmyleg posted:

Yeah, I came out feeling like I'd need to fully unpack it over a few viewings over a few years.

Initial instinct is that all the stuff that felt a bit extraneous the first time around will bear fruit on multiple viewings. But we'll see.

Exactly how I feel. On one hand the entire doctor plot could have been removed entirely and I'm not sure the movie wouldn't have benefited from it. On the other hand I'm probably missing a vital thematic point in feeling that way. Similarly, the doctor being played by Tilda Swinton had to be of major significance, right? I was distracted every time he/she was on screen, but I also suspect my simpleton brain is missing something.

I literally dreamed about this movie all night.

Mark my words, 2018 is going to be looked back on and revered as one of the greatest years for horror.

Thom and the Heads
Oct 27, 2010

Farscape is actually pretty cool.
Yeah I don't know what was gained by the doctor being played by Tilda Swinton. Every time they were on screen I was just trying to figure out why I was looking at someone in old man makeup. Didn't know it was her until I got home.

InfiniteZero
Sep 11, 2004

PINK GUITAR FIRE ROBOT

College Slice

mary had a little clam posted:

Not only am I curious how the Bader-Meinhof gang informs the themes of Suspiria

The whole movie is about the transfer of power, and Baader-Meinhoff were trying to effect a transfer of power using fear, violence, and terrorism from within. The correlation (metaphor) is pretty straightforward from there. If anything, I don't think there's a whole lot to it. It works great, but it's not super complicated (not accusing anybody of being "dumb" or whatever if you don't get it either -- I just think it's a fairly simple metaphor so long as you understand the historical context).

mary had a little clam posted:

I'm also curious at the filmmaker's deliberate choice to use drab colors (but interesting textures) in opposition to the original's garish colors.

I think it's as simple as the fact that he wanted a different aesthetic because there's no point in trying to be more Argento than Dario Argento. Also Luca Guadagnino loves Fassbinder movies and I think he was trying to consciously quote from them instead, because holy poo poo does this film ever look like a Fassbinder film. I think this is also probably why he got Ingrid Caven for the movie (she was one of Fassbinder's repertory players).

EDIT -- in case anybody doesn't know the film history tie-in to that either, Udo Kier was also in Fassbinder's film circle and appeared in many of his films. He was not able to appear in one of his films because he was shooting a scene for the original "Suspiria". Fassbinder told Kier he was an idiot for appearing in an Italian horror film.

InfiniteZero fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Nov 12, 2018

I, Butthole
Jun 30, 2007

Begin the operations of the gas chambers, gas schools, gas universities, gas libraries, gas museums, gas dance halls, and gas threads, etcetera.
I DEMAND IT
Things that I noticed on the second watch:

There's a prevalence of shots where the audiences' view of what characters are looking at are blocked, at least until Suspiriorum takes over.

Suzy says, "I want to be the hands of this company." The insistence of the camera focusing on hands (and to a lesser extent, feet) doesn't necessarily preconfigure this line, but there's a lot of attention on extremities.

Markos screams "It's not vanity, it's art" at Blanc the end, which kind of seems self-reflective especially given it's yelled by and at Tilda Swinton.

Something I didn't notice on the first watch was the spell that the coven puts on the dancers at the celebratory dinner; they're constantly touching the faces of the dancers to bewitch them. Makes the spring-y arm decoration that's so obvious in the establishing shot of the table a bit of foreshadowing. Similarly, the first scene at the diner of just the coven having dinner has a voice over conversation, and I completely missed on my first watch that the voice over was actually a telepathic conversation between them all.

Suzy becomes Suspiriorum at the end of Volk. She re-injures Sara so the ritual can take place, starts telepathically communicating with Blanc, and becomes instantly attuned to the coven's actions.


This movie rules.

Spatulater bro!
Aug 19, 2003

Punch! Punch! Punch!

I, Butthole posted:

Similarly, the first scene at the diner of just the coven having dinner has a voice over conversation, and I completely missed on my first watch that the voice over was actually a telepathic conversation between them all.

I believe this is also what was happening during the voting scene. I didn't catch on until the diner scene you mentioned.

romanowski
Nov 10, 2012

this movie kicked rear end

That Dang Dad
Apr 23, 2003

Well I am
over-fucking-whelmed...
Young Orc

InfiniteZero posted:

The whole movie is about the transfer of power, and Baader-Meinhoff were trying to effect a transfer of power using fear, violence, and terrorism from within. The correlation (metaphor) is pretty straightforward from there. If anything, I don't think there's a whole lot to it. It works great, but it's not super complicated (not accusing anybody of being "dumb" or whatever if you don't get it either -- I just think it's a fairly simple metaphor so long as you understand the historical context).


I think it's as simple as the fact that he wanted a different aesthetic because there's no point in trying to be more Argento than Dario Argento. Also Luca Guadagnino loves Fassbinder movies and I think he was trying to consciously quote from them instead, because holy poo poo does this film ever look like a Fassbinder film. I think this is also probably why he got Ingrid Caven for the movie (she was one of Fassbinder's repertory players).

EDIT -- in case anybody doesn't know the film history tie-in to that either, Udo Kier was also in Fassbinder's film circle and appeared in many of his films. He was not able to appear in one of his films because he was shooting a scene for the original "Suspiria". Fassbinder told Kier he was an idiot for appearing in an Italian horror film.

I didn't know the historical context of either of your points so this was much appreciated!

CAR CRASH CRACKERS
Jan 13, 2008

commemorative spoons and tiny personalized license plates: the regalia of tourism
Did anyone catch what Susie takes from the desk when she and Sara sneak into the office?

nemesis_hub
Nov 27, 2006

Can you guys give me a general idea of how scary/gross this is? Roughly similar to the original or does it get more hardcore than that? My gf usually doesn’t like horror but will go with me to this if I promise not to traumatize her.

I, Butthole
Jun 30, 2007

Begin the operations of the gas chambers, gas schools, gas universities, gas libraries, gas museums, gas dance halls, and gas threads, etcetera.
I DEMAND IT

nemesis_hub posted:

Can you guys give me a general idea of how scary/gross this is? Roughly similar to the original or does it get more hardcore than that? My gf usually doesn’t like horror but will go with me to this if I promise not to traumatize her.

It's much more of a psychological horror than the Argento version, but what physical horror is there is pretty gnarly and it doesn't shy away from showing fluids etc flowing about. There's a lot less removed violence than the Argento version - less close ups and obvious changes to effectswork - even though there's probably less overall violent scenes, it's a lot more personal and confronting.

InfiniteZero
Sep 11, 2004

PINK GUITAR FIRE ROBOT

College Slice

nemesis_hub posted:

Can you guys give me a general idea of how scary/gross this is? Roughly similar to the original or does it get more hardcore than that? My gf usually doesn’t like horror but will go with me to this if I promise not to traumatize her.

It gets intense and isn't going to win over a person who doesn't like horror anyway.

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Spatulater bro!
Aug 19, 2003

Punch! Punch! Punch!

nemesis_hub posted:

Can you guys give me a general idea of how scary/gross this is? Roughly similar to the original or does it get more hardcore than that? My gf usually doesn’t like horror but will go with me to this if I promise not to traumatize her.

The physical grossness isn't the main focus, but when it happens it's pretty loving twisted. I heard more gasps and "oh my god"s in my showing than I've ever heard.

Plus it's an absolutely terrible example of horror for people who don't like horror. I say hard pass.

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