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Star Warrior X posted:GTA 5 doesn't cost $60. It costs $60 minus whatever steam discount, plus whatever number you feel like spending on funbux. OneEightHundred fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Oct 22, 2018 |
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Oct 21, 2018 22:32
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Also NES games in the late 80’s retailed for $35. Thats about $77 in todays money. Most of those games probably costed less than $300k to make.
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Oct 26, 2018 20:43
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The human cost of Red Dead Redemption 2 https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-10-25-the-human-cost-of-red-dead-redemption-2
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Oct 26, 2018 21:15
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I remember being absolutely shocked that Wing Commander: The Secret Missions for SNES cost $60 in contemporary dollars. And then wanting it more than anything I've ever wanted.
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Oct 27, 2018 05:03
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ChocNitty posted:The human cost of Red Dead Redemption 2 Probably the thing that has depressed me more than anything about this story, regardless of the reality of life there, was how quickly gamers came to the defence of the idea of 100 hour weeks and how it's fine and totally normal look they all enjoy it and are millionaires shut up about working conditions and give me my videogame!!! Y'all, devs deserve a life outside of the office. GeeCee fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Oct 28, 2018 |
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Oct 28, 2018 15:10
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I remember after TellTale went bankrupt, some people were like "the devs should finish the walking dead for free if they really care about the community." There's a lot of entitled kids out there.
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Oct 28, 2018 17:14
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Just for the record, the only people making millions at Rockstar are Sam and Dan. Most of the developers make below industry average with bonuses putting them right around the industry average for total compensation. That's not even factoring in all the unpaid overtime.
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Oct 28, 2018 17:50
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Gearman posted:Just for the record, the only people making millions at Rockstar are Sam and Dan. Most of the developers make below industry average with bonuses putting them right around the industry average for total compensation. That's not even factoring in all the unpaid overtime.
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Oct 29, 2018 14:42
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ChocNitty posted:The human cost of Red Dead Redemption 2 Funny how every year or so articles come out about this but people keep working these poo poo jobs for that taste of being a AAA game dev
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Oct 29, 2018 17:35
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tyrelhill posted:Funny how every year or so articles come out about this but people keep working these poo poo jobs for that taste of being a AAA game dev A lot of them don't, but there's always a stream of eager "just finished university" people that don't know better and when they get into a situation like this are too tired to seek an out.
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Oct 29, 2018 19:41
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If they don't unionize, nothing will change.
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Oct 29, 2018 20:58
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oh yes oh god yes form the head FORM THE HEAD unghhhh...
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tyrelhill posted:Funny how every year or so articles come out about this but people keep working these poo poo jobs for that taste of being a AAA game dev It'll never change, people want glory in their career. I work in 3d - at a studio that puts out really beautiful work, but it's not a particularly sexy industry. We get very few good applicants and US schools seem to speak about our industry as the backup you can go to when you cant quite cut it in VFX or games. We don't want those people either... we need good artists too. Funnily enough, some of the applicants we get these days (10 fold increase in the last few years) are people who have 15-20 years experience in games and VFX and have realised that normal working hours would be nice, yet we cant pay them what they want because they'd need to start closer to a junior level and relearn so much poo poo. in games and vfx you usually (not always, but at bigger studios) have to focus on one very tiny skillset in order to fit into a proper factory production line. 10 years down that path and taking a career change is extremely difficult. it's all a bit sad really. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Oct 29, 2018 |
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Oct 29, 2018 21:33
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Cemetry Gator posted:I remember after TellTale went bankrupt, some people were like "the devs should finish the walking dead for free if they really care about the community." Yeah, I wish it was just kids but I'm getting increasingly more convinced the issue of game dev working conditions is one of those subjects right now that attract the attention of the far right, gaters, russian sockpuppets, bots, trumpsters etc etc. Just another angle to sow division. Which is a shame, there need to be real discussions about our working conditions, what studios do it well and those who don't and it can't happen as effectively online when a sizeable part of social media is contrarian on purpose.
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Oct 29, 2018 23:26
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GC_ChrisReeves posted:Yeah, I wish it was just kids but I'm getting increasingly more convinced the issue of game dev working conditions is one of those subjects right now that attract the attention of the far right, gaters, russian sockpuppets, bots, trumpsters etc etc. Just another angle to sow division. Other than the idiots who are buried "TellTale should do it for the fans!" Where is the sizeable part? Maybe I'm too echo-chambering but I haven't seen that side at all.
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Oct 30, 2018 00:23
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GC_ChrisReeves posted:Probably the thing that has depressed me more than anything about this story, regardless of the reality of life there, was how quickly gamers came to the defence of the idea of 100 hour weeks and how it's fine and totally normal look they all enjoy it and are millionaires shut up about working conditions and give me my videogame!!! John Carmack, famous for amongst other things having an insane work ethic he understands is extraordinary, said he's never worked that much in a week https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/1051874929631789056?s=19 Gamers are largely just reactionaries
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Oct 30, 2018 03:32
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I wonder what their productivity percentage is during those 60 hours. For me, I tend to go in 2 hour spurts, usually.
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Nov 6, 2018 15:23
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Is this a safe space to complain about the gaming community? Mostly kidding, but as someone in both AAA and indie since '99 I do wish the public would let the actual game developers decide what's best for them, whether that's unionizing or asking for support or whatever. I've been in bad situations and great situations and there's a lot more to it than how many hours I work in a week. Internet lynch mobs should not be the default reaction to every issue. GC_ChrisReeves posted:Yeah, I wish it was just kids but I'm getting increasingly more convinced the issue of game dev working conditions is one of those subjects right now that attract the attention of the far right, gaters, russian sockpuppets, bots, trumpsters etc etc. Just another angle to sow division. Are you Chris Reeves from BioWare Austin? And for the record your sentiment here is spot on. Chewbot fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 06:12
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Edit: Never mind, nothing to see here. Look, a three headed monkey! RossCo fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Nov 8, 2018 |
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Nov 8, 2018 18:00
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Chewbot posted:Are you Chris Reeves from BioWare Austin? And for the record your sentiment here is spot on.  no but what are the odds?!??!Alas no I'm in Dundee, Scotland and my bean is freaked. 
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Nov 9, 2018 20:14
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Chewbot posted:Is this a safe space to complain about the gaming community? you'd be hard pressed to find a more widespread publicly available example of the dunning-kruger effect than gamers talking about game development
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Nov 10, 2018 02:47
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djkillingspree posted:you'd be hard pressed to find a more widespread publicly available example of the dunning-kruger effect than gamers talking about game development Alternate contender: gamers talking about social issues involving women and minorities, both historically and in modern day. May not be as loudly widespread as games, but all the creative industries deal with their share of overly optimistic, obliviously spoiled consumers. I once read a comment from a pro-pirating book reader who claimed digital copies of all books should be free because the only cost and effort involved in making a book is the printing process. Writers, editors, publishers, lawyers, agents, so on -- all non-existent or working for free, apparently.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:44
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Hence this thread!  One of the points of this thread is to give devs and players a chance to communicate directly and candidly about stuff like this.
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Nov 10, 2018 03:46
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Greyarc posted:Alternate contender: gamers talking about social issues involving women and minorities, both historically and in modern day. There is probably a monetization strategy where free books would make sense, and pay for the support staff. As an example, http://www.gameaipro.com is a series of books consisting of mostly academic (or in that style) articles on artificial intelligence in games. The digital version of the book is published for free ~year after the physical release. There are many other similar arrangements (that one tied to games, but https://www.deeplearningbook.org is also quite good) Fiction could probably work as free, but I expect you would not like the way that would look. Games certainly work as freely available media.
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Nov 10, 2018 14:04
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I think this is a good thread for this maybe, if anyone knows much about HDR tech and color depth from a dev perspective. After RDR2 came out, a video started floating around about the HDR being “faked”, and even DigitalFoundry used it as a reference in their analysis. What bugged me about it is the entire video was based on luminance values, just how bright the picture is. Since RDR2 in HDR didn’t push the brightness super high in a lot of points, they said that’s proof that it’s faked in post processing from the SDR image. On a technical level, does that actually make sense, or is that a lovely analysis? I was under the impression that HDR isn’t just about added brightness, but added precision in the RGB values overall, meaning a broader range of interim colors even within the bounds of the normal SDR range. 8 bit RGB = 256 possible values per channel, 10 bit RGB = 1024 per channel. You get more on the top end of brightness as a result, but there’s also an enormous amount of in-between color values that are getting produced, which is a lot more subtle of a change. In RDR2 specifically I noticed things in haze or fog, for example, still feel like they hold a ton of detail despite the colors getting faded together, which you absolutely wouldn’t see by checking luminance values. tl;dr Does HDR actually result in added color depth or is the actual end result really just about brightness when it comes to actual implementation?
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Nov 14, 2018 20:17
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Dewgy posted:tl;dr Does HDR actually result in added color depth or is the actual end result really just about brightness when it comes to actual implementation? HDR means developers get/have to think about how gamma space interacts with image data, and that image data can use more bits per channel. This presentation seems interesting, looks like it covers PS3-era HDR stuff: https://gdcvault.com/play/1012351/Uncharted-2-HDR
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Nov 15, 2018 05:38
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Cocoa Crispies posted:HDR means developers get/have to think about how gamma space interacts with image data, and that image data can use more bits per channel. I think that’s where it gets confusing. HDR as in high dynamic range lighting has existed since at least the Source engine and the HL2 Lost Coast demo, but RGB10 HDR as a display standard is something totally different. The PS3 couldn’t do RGB10 display output, but could include HDR lighting as part of the rendering pipeline, which is what I’m pretty sure this GDC talk is about. My question’s more about HDR as like a bullet point on your TV specs, or like the Apple “millions of colors” vs “one billion colors” thing. Dewgy fucked around with this message at 08:47 on Nov 15, 2018 |
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Nov 15, 2018 08:44
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Yeah, HDR as the thing muggles talk about, so to speak, is not the same thing as HDR as it's existed for devs since Lost Coast. The naming's a bit confusing. This Nvidia presentation i just googled but will pretend I knew all along distinguishes between them as rendering HDR and display HDR.
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Nov 15, 2018 10:31
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Dewgy posted:I think this is a good thread for this maybe, if anyone knows much about HDR tech and color depth from a dev perspective. After RDR2 came out, a video started floating around about the HDR being “faked”, and even DigitalFoundry used it as a reference in their analysis. Howdy, I worked on some of the lighting settings (mostly for caves and interiors) in RDR2. To be brief, the HDR you're asking about (the fancy HDR sticker on TVs) is both luminance (measured in nits) AND expanded color range. It's been a few years since I've looked at any of the rendering stuff in the RAGE engine, but Digital Foundry's analysis is pretty spot on in most cases so I'd be inclined to believe them. You're also able to see more values in certain areas due to Rockstar's use of dynamic tonemapping. Without getting in too much detail, that system allows Rockstar artists to adjust the brightness and contrast of areas, scenes, times of day and even weather. I worked mostly on tonemapping of caves so that you could still lots of detail even with the low amount of light in there. Since the RAGE engine now uses physically based lighting, the caves would have been super dark without some help. There are also different tonemap settings for various regions of the world and for thunderstorms to further punctuate the mood the developers were going for. None of that is specific to HDR10 and has been around for a while. It just looks better now that it's being used in conjunction with physically based lighting and rendering.
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Nov 15, 2018 22:27
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Gearman posted:Howdy, I worked on some of the lighting settings (mostly for caves and interiors) in RDR2. To be brief, the HDR you're asking about (the fancy HDR sticker on TVs) is both luminance (measured in nits) AND expanded color range. It's been a few years since I've looked at any of the rendering stuff in the RAGE engine, but Digital Foundry's analysis is pretty spot on in most cases so I'd be inclined to believe them. Nice! My only concern with DF's analysis is they seemed to be parroting someone else without really questioning the methodology, which is kind of weird for them. HDR seems to be one of the least understood things around though, so that's admittedly not surprising. I'd kill to get a look at the render stack you guys had set up to actually get things to the display.  The lighting in the whole game is absolutely gorgeous, by the way, y'all did amazing work. There have been a ton of moments where I'm not even thinking about it, then something stands out and I'm just like "oh poo poo, that's right, this is all real-time". Looks fantastic regardless of the technical specifics. 
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Nov 16, 2018 00:34
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Dewgy posted:I think that’s where it gets confusing. HDR as in high dynamic range lighting has existed since at least the Source engine and the HL2 Lost Coast demo, but RGB10 HDR as a display standard is something totally different. The PS3 couldn’t do RGB10 display output, but could include HDR lighting as part of the rendering pipeline, which is what I’m pretty sure this GDC talk is about. HDR rendering, which has been around since DX9 at least iirc, is about using a wider color space when calculating the color of pixels, but eventually the result of those calculations have to be mapped back into standard 8bit RGB to be sent to your monitor, and some amount of contrast and color information is lost in the process. HDR displays handle the remaining part of getting HDR content to your eyes. They allow a wider color space to be sent to the display (HDR10 is 10 bits per color instead of 8), and tends to be matched with the display also being able to output a higher contrast ratio, so that it can both accept a signal and output a picture with larger dynamic range.
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Nov 17, 2018 19:30
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djkillingspree posted:HDR rendering, which has been around since DX9 at least iirc, is about using a wider color space when calculating the color of pixels, but eventually the result of those calculations have to be mapped back into standard 8bit RGB to be sent to your monitor, and some amount of contrast and color information is lost in the process. Yeah, I know all that, my question though is luminance a good test of RGB10 HDR output or does that not really test the full range of colors? It should be 64x as many colors overall, not just brighter ones. e: For clarity, here’s the video I was asking about. HDR stuff starts at around 8:30 and it all just feels off to me from what I know about the tech. They definitely showed it doesn’t push the brightness as high as it can but that’s not all of what HDR does. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDGIU88p-EU Dewgy fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Nov 17, 2018 |
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Nov 17, 2018 20:14
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Dewgy posted:Yeah, I know all that, my question though is luminance a good test of RGB10 HDR output or does that not really test the full range of colors? It should be 64x as many colors overall, not just brighter ones. I mentioned it briefly in my post above but, yes luminance values is a valid test, though somewhat inconplete because HDR10 defines both expanded color range AND luminance. In most cases you would very rarely be taking advantage of one but not the other, so testing for luminance is usually a good enough indicator. For a game like RDR2 with a whole bunch of areas with strong contrast (being inside a dark cave, while looking out into bright sunlight, for example)it would be pretty obvious if an expanded contrast range (in nits) was not being used. It would make very little sense for a game like RDR2 to have expanded color without also utilizing expanded luminance.
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Nov 17, 2018 20:56
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some games might have a general burn reduction that is applied before the color grading so it's easier to increase the brightness range - rockstar I presumed wanted such tight control over the look and consistency that it wasn't as simple - or they felt it changed the look between sdr and hdr too much. I have mastered (attempted to, tested in davinci) some content for HDR displays and covering both sets in a way which doesn't make consistency a painful trial and error process is kind of tricky. very easy to add something in grading which fucks one up and not the other. Getting them to match 99% of the time but the HDR display to really pop when you look into a sun took significantly more time than I expected. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Nov 20, 2018 |
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Nov 20, 2018 20:50
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Dewgy posted:Yeah, I know all that, my question though is luminance a good test of RGB10 HDR output or does that not really test the full range of colors? It should be 64x as many colors overall, not just brighter ones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJgXQ3qNg74 This one goes into some more detail. I believe the criticism is that it is directly mapping the standard 0-255 color range into the HDR space, with 255 equal to whatever you set the peak luminance to, as opposed to actually providing additional color information in between those steps. The fact that increasing peak luminance also increases black level would seem to indicate that it's doing something wrong, at least.
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Nov 21, 2018 06:02
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I worked for Blizzards helpdesk just before Diablo 3 came out. They put us in a separate building than the developers, because they were too good to be under the same roof as us lowly peasants.
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Nov 21, 2018 19:30
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CS Help Desk or IT Help Desk? I thought CS was in a completely different state
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Nov 21, 2018 19:38
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djkillingspree posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJgXQ3qNg74 That's the one that DF used as their base I think, though it sounds like I've got more of a problem with him calling it "fake" to get clicks rather than the actual analysis at this point.
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Nov 21, 2018 19:42
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ChocNitty posted:I worked for Blizzards helpdesk just before Diablo 3 came out. They put us in a separate building than the developers, because they were too good to be under the same roof as us lowly peasants. Blizzard's campus and buildings are still under the jurisdiction of the city of Irvine and from what I understand there's a lot of restrictions and red tape surrounding what they can and can't do as far as construction and expansion. There isn't much open space around their campus either. Whenever there's an open building across the street they snatch it up. Pixar has a lot of buildings across the street from the main campus too. v  v
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Nov 21, 2018 19:51
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GC_ChrisReeves posted:Probably the thing that has depressed me more than anything about this story, regardless of the reality of life there, was how quickly gamers came to the defence of the idea of 100 hour weeks and how it's fine and totally normal look they all enjoy it and are millionaires shut up about working conditions and give me my videogame!!! all devs are goblins and we must perish in our caves slaving over DLC that is actually the original game you intended to buy. but seriously it doesn't make sense. Both execs and customers want the game ASAP which forces crunch and cutbacks instead of just waiting another year for something that's actually remarkable. It stuns me every time some disconnected overhead cracks the whip for 12 straight months and is surprised that the game doesn't quite meet the vision intended.
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Nov 21, 2018 20:56
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I've been a professional software developer since 2011. My technologies have been Python and web protocols, as well as some cryptocurrency experience. I want my next job to be at a game company, developing video games, especially VR games. What can I do to make this happen? Do I need to make . my own indie game to prove my abilities, or will I be able to get a job without that? I do have a github account with about 60 open source personal projects, will that help me?
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Nov 21, 2018 22:26
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