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Wheat Loaf posted:That's a fair point although I guess I don't mind so much because I don't think "silly sci-fi show for kids" is an intrinsically bad thing. For instance, Demon Headmaster is a silly sci-fi show for kids and it's potentially one of the best television programmes (for kids or otherwise) ever created. If anything, RTD's programming explicitly for children is more serious and "adult" than his adult or family output. If you want a vision of Old Doctor Who made by Rusty then Century Falls is basically it.
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Nov 18, 2018 16:12
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I'd like to see a scene of a small adventure as a preamble to one of the larger ones, like they go to an intergalactic bazaar that exchanges Earth currency because previous Doctors came by with *their* companions and they realised "Oh hey, these creatures exist and have cash to spend, and are really impulsive and curious. We could hella profit off of them!" Just a montage of them buying neat alien clothes and ornaments and stuff before they go somewhere else and stuff gets serious. Let the costume and prop departments just go nuts for a bit.
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Nov 18, 2018 16:13
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If anything, RTD's programming explicitly for children is more serious and "adult" than his adult or family output. If you want a vision of Old Doctor Who made by Rusty then Century Falls is basically it. Dark Season would have slotted right into a McCoy Season 27 without blinking.
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Nov 18, 2018 16:18
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Sydney Bottocks posted:It's all in how you approach the material, really. A good writer recognizes that kids are a lot smarter than most adults think and writes entertaining material that isn't condescending or preachy. Whereas a bad writer just thinks they can put any old poo poo on screen and kids will eat it up because they're morons. Robert Holmes's old dictum about how he wrote for "intelligent 14-year olds" comes to mind.
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Nov 18, 2018 16:30
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Wheat Loaf posted:Robert Holmes's old dictum about how he wrote for "intelligent 14-year olds". Exactly. Holmes would probably be my best example of a guy who wasn't necessarily a DW fan, but was instead a professional writer/script editor. Someone who saw his job as delivering the best work he possibly could, regardless of what show he was writing for. That's the kind of person I'm talking about when I say DW doesn't necessarily need fanboys running the show: someone who isn't necessarily a devoted follower of the program they're writing for (though I should add that part of being a good writer is doing research on what it is you're writing about, whether that's sailing, or ancient Rome, or a long-running science fiction show that deals with a time traveler in a blue box), but who takes their work seriously and doesn't consider writing genre television to be "beneath" them somehow.
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Nov 18, 2018 16:39
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Open Source Idiom posted:I think that's a false dichotomy. Some fan writers have taken more boundary pushing approaches to the series -- the Rebecca Levene era was probably the most notable -- while others have taken far more traditional approaches -- Nick Briggs is conservative fandom defined. So the fan response is multitude. I agree with you that the show being run by fans isn't a bad thing, but I strongly believe that the show's been at its best when it's been pushing itself and to go new places. That's a fair point and probably key--it's OK for the show to take chances and break new ground which it clearly has done in the past 10+ years and is doing this season--if it comes from people who get the show. I don't think it takes breaking the concept to explore new things and change stuff up. Cleretic posted:If anybody is at all interested, I'd suggest looking up the Leekley Bible; the story bible intended to be used for an American reboot of Who in the nineties (despite popular belief, actually not the one the McGann movie was intended to kick-start, it was a few years before). It's a fascinating look at what a total scorched-earth, not-a-continuation reboot would've been like, by somebody who has no real emotional connection to the show. It actually has some neat ideas--I really like the planned Cyberman design--but yeah, it's probably good that we didn't get it. There is a good exploration of that and much more in The Nth Doctor, a book exploring the various failed movie scripts and reboots. Some are quite dire and alien to Doctor Who. Wheat Loaf posted:In any event, I don't think either Tennant and Capaldi brought any kind of fannish obsession about what the Doctor should be like to the role; I would honestly be very surprised if there was any kind of Mark Hamill style story about Tennant confronting RTD and saying, "I hate what you have done to this character." I doubt there would be, because both actors seemed to be very much of a like mind with the showrunners. And they were very involved with the character--in their last scenes alone it was Tennant who argued for the take used on the "I don't want to go line" and Capaldi helped write his final speech. Sydney Bottocks posted:I also don't get the "reinvent the show for modern audiences" concern, since that's exactly what RTD did when he started the revival in 2005. He didn't go back to the show's original formula, he took a lot of inspiration from more modern shows when he started working on it, and Moffat continued in that vein (and in both cases, there was a fair bit of it that was to the show's detriment, in my view). So you can't really fret about a showrunner potentially reinventing the show for a more modern audience because that ship has already sailed. That's a lot of it, yeah. And I'm not opposed to all change--I just like it to fit in with the past and the themes reasonably well. Remember a lot of the reason people hated the NAs was because they were doing radical things with the characters and concept, making it more "adult" and gritty and using DW as a stepping off point for cyberpunk dystopian fiction. So not all change and reinvention is good.
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Nov 18, 2018 16:56
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Astroman posted:That's a lot of it, yeah. And I'm not opposed to all change--I just like it to fit in with the past and the themes reasonably well. Remember a lot of the reason people hated the NAs was because they were doing radical things with the characters and concept, making it more "adult" and gritty and using DW as a stepping off point for cyberpunk dystopian fiction. So not all change and reinvention is good. I don't disagree with that at all, though it should be pointed out that some of the writers of the NA novels were people who'd actually worked on the show (and specifically people like Andrew Cartmel, Ben Aaronvitch, and Marc Platt, who'd all worked on the last season of the show, where I would argue that the show underwent one of its' more radical changes in terms of how writers approached the character of the Doctor and his companions, and probably the one season of the classic series that's had the most far-reaching influence on the revived series when it came back in 2005). And of course a lot of the NA writers who hadn't actually worked on the show were still huge DW fans (Mark Gatiss, and even RTD himself). So it's not like the NA novels were just handed to a bunch of writers unfamiliar with the series, so we can't really say that new writers wanting to reinvent DW in a way that longtime DW fans might dislike is strictly limited to just people that never watched or cared for the show previously.
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Nov 18, 2018 17:20
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Exactly. Holmes would probably be my best example of a guy who wasn't necessarily a DW fan, but was instead a professional writer/script editor. Someone who saw his job as delivering the best work he possibly could, regardless of what show he was writing for. That's the kind of person I'm talking about when I say DW doesn't necessarily need fanboys running the show: someone who isn't necessarily a devoted follower of the program they're writing for (though I should add that part of being a good writer is doing research on what it is you're writing about, whether that's sailing, or ancient Rome, or a long-running science fiction show that deals with a time traveler in a blue box), but who takes their work seriously and doesn't consider writing genre television to be "beneath" them somehow. Keep in mind however, Holmes had been writing for the show for about 6/7 years before he became script editor.
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Nov 18, 2018 17:20
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Davros1 posted:Keep in mind however, Holmes had been writing for the show for about 6/7 years before he became script editor. Oh sure, but he never came across as someone who was a huge fan of the show, necessarily, but rather someone who viewed it as what it was: a good job writing (or script editing) for one of the BBC's more popular shows. Granted I could be wrong about all that, but that's the impression I got.
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Nov 18, 2018 17:45
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I agree that it would be cool if Robert Holmes was writing the show again 
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Nov 18, 2018 19:30
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Jerusalem posted:I agree that it would be cool if Robert Holmes was writing the show again Or Douglas Adams (just not script editing it though).
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Nov 18, 2018 19:32
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Ahahaha, loving 11
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Nov 18, 2018 19:34
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The kerblam jingle sounds distractingly like the first bars of the Toys R Us jingle to me.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:34
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This mostly automated warehouse where human workers are treated like interchangeable cogs who are made to feel grateful just to have a job and have their productivity constantly measured... what a bizarre futuristic concept, too hard to wrap my head around
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Nov 18, 2018 19:43
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I like Kira, I hope she doesnt die.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:44
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Mr. Dad is extremely doomed.
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Nov 18, 2018 19:45
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Murderion posted:Mr. Dad is extremely doomed. Off to 999 land doesn’t sound ominous at all
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Nov 18, 2018 19:47
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I'm digging the callbacks to previous doctors, they feel like nice nods rather than too forced. ("Speaking of wasps, did I ever tell you about me and agatha christie?")
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Nov 18, 2018 19:54
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I reckon the boss (Mr Slade?) sent the message for help. He noticed the people going missing (hence the photocopied IDs in his office) and had no other way of getting the word out with losing his job and/or being murdered.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:02
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You rear end in a top hat robots leave Kira alone 
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Nov 18, 2018 20:03
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SiKboy posted:I reckon the boss (Mr Slade?) sent the message for help. He noticed the people going missing (hence the photocopied IDs in his office) and had no other way of getting the word out with losing his job and/or being murdered. Yeah, seems like a deliberate misdirect that he is a bad guy
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Nov 18, 2018 20:03
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Twirly felt like something out of Futurama/Red Dwarf, I loved it
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Nov 18, 2018 20:09
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Of all the things to terrify children with, bubblewrap is not one I saw coming.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:11
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Killer bubble wrap 
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Nov 18, 2018 20:13
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Staggy posted:Of all the things to terrify children with, bubblewrap is not one I saw coming. Someone never saw Ark in Space.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:14
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That was a really loving good episode
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Nov 18, 2018 20:20
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The bubble wrap bombs were kind of a dumb gimmick but having the computer actually be friendly (though still slightly murderous) was a nice twist. Plus, the real villain got a special delivery of karmic justice, unlike so many of the bad guys from this season.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:24
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I liked about 95% of that. Not a massive fan of the "Trust the system it is on your side, corporations have a conscience" message, but everything else was great. Except killing Kira. SiKboy posted:I like Kira, I hope she doesnt die. See, this is why I try not to get attached to people.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:26
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Shame they shied away from either really giving Amazon's warehouse conditions both barrels, or dealing more in depth with the idea that humans need to do "work" to give their lives meaning after having raised it, but it'll still be nudging the kiddies to think about those things and what they think about them. That's three absolute crackers on the spin now.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:31
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SiKboy posted:I liked about 95% of that. Not a massive fan of the "Trust the system it is on your side, corporations have a conscience" message, but everything else was great. Except killing Kira. The Doctor did specifically say that the problem is in how humans exploit systems: a running theme this season seems to be some rear end in a top hat human taking advantage of something for their own gain and trying to shift the blame onto something else. The ending did feel a little pat with Julie saying,"I'm gonna recommend we go to 51% organic" despite probably not actually having the clout to make that happen, but overall I really enjoyed that episode. Holy poo poo, the writer of this episode is the guy who wrote Wentworth, which is terrible. That makes me like this episode even more.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:31
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So why did The Doctor not have them teleport in to the middle of space and explode there instead of literally committing murder?
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Nov 18, 2018 20:32
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I was really really liking that episode until it turned out the horrible explotitve company wasn't the problem and in fact it was the guy who was trying to sabotage that (in admittedly the worst way possible) who was the real bad guy here. The episode goes out of it's way to specifically call out the bad working conditions of Kerblam, and even highlights how strange it is to have humans in jobs that could just as well be done by automation, and the solution to that is... to add more humans into the system? It's just so annoying because I was loving everything about the episode until then.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:36
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seizure later posted:So why did The Doctor not have them teleport in to the middle of space and explode there instead of literally committing murder? They couldn't open the packages until they were delivered, they were delivering to themselves, so it had to be right where they currently were.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:40
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Tomtrek posted:I was really really liking that episode until it turned out the horrible explotitve company wasn't the problem and in fact it was the guy who was trying to sabotage that (in admittedly the worst way possible) who was the real bad guy here. To be fair it's established that the Job Market is basically nil, and barely anyone can find work. It's a bandaid, but it's something that can bring in the money for the employees. The characters don't care much about the conditions, just that no one can find work due to automation.
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Nov 18, 2018 20:44
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But Ryan popped the bubblewrap when it first came to the TARDIS, why isn't he dead? 
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Nov 18, 2018 20:47
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I enjoyed that when I was watching it. I really liked the idea of the setting and the design of everything. Although despite the new production values, the CGI's credibility got pushed to its limits during the conveyer belt scene. But now that I'm writing my thoughts down, I have a few puzzlements, though it may just be stuff I've missed. It's all in the climax's end and the bits just after. I felt the last scene with Charlie lacked that last bit of oomph to really sell it. Was he a lone agent or part of an organised group? Will others try this plot or something like it again? I think maybe a more angry or hateful final few moments from him /his actor may have worked better because The Doctor has, from his view, ruined what seems to be the best prospect of fixing a galactic unemployment crisis. And is she not annoyed at the system for apparently choosing to kill employees at random in order to rout out the saboteur and then (maybe) sacraficing another to get at that individual? (I get that it targeted Yaz with the antique lamp order because she was new on the system but surely someone who started work that day can't be responsible for a long term issue although they may be related to it.) It seems that having a system that would do that as a response to problems is a set of issues all by itself and may be grist to the anti-Kerblam mill. Despite Charlie meeting a fate of his own design, the ending still felt a bit rushed. Prehaps the setting as a whole bit off more than the story could chew. Also I don't think I've popped bubble-wrap deliberately since I was little so that part of the trap seemed a bit weird to me. It's a clever way to hide bombs in plain sight but I dunno. Felt a bit too silly.
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Nov 18, 2018 21:01
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The_Doctor posted:But Ryan popped the bubblewrap when it first came to the TARDIS, why isn't he dead? It wasnt all the bubblewrap, just the packages which were being held back. If it was in ones or twos word would get out quickly and no one would accept their kerblam delivery, but if all the contaminated packages were sent out at the same time, via teleportation, then loads of people would be killed instead of just a few. Tomtrek posted:I was really really liking that episode until it turned out the horrible explotitve company wasn't the problem and in fact it was the guy who was trying to sabotage that (in admittedly the worst way possible) who was the real bad guy here. I'm with you on this, except for the "Why are we employing humans to do this job in the first place" bit, because in 2000AD/Judge Dredd comics the future has a similar set up, where there is almost no work and many of the jobs that do exist are essentially pointless make-work positions, so I'm used to that in sci-fi.
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Nov 18, 2018 21:11
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Stabbatical posted:And is she not annoyed at the system for apparently choosing to kill employees at random in order to rout out the saboteur and then (maybe) sacraficing another to get at that individual? (I get that it targeted Yaz with the antique lamp order because she was new on the system but surely someone who started work that day can't be responsible for a long term issue although they may be related to it.) The system didn't kill the other employees, that was Charlie reprogramming the dispatch robots to kill anybody who got too near Dispatch where he was holding back the other dispatch robots for the big teleport. The system did try to lure Yaz there, but only because it knew she was one of the Doctor's crew and (we can assume) figured she'd be better equipped to handle it - which she was, Lee Mack didn't consider the robots threats which is how they killed him, but Yaz immediately got freaked out and made a run for it. It absolutely did deliberately kill Kira and more should have been made of that, I agree. The_Doctor posted:But Ryan popped the bubblewrap when it first came to the TARDIS, why isn't he dead? The system sent that to the Doctor (well, it was intended for/originally ordered by 11, but time travel is funny like that  ) so we can assume it made sure it didn't have evil bubble wrap inside of it.
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Nov 18, 2018 21:14
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More good stuff, ludicrous but enjoyable. That little drone was some great comic relief - "people with your symptoms browse blood pressure medication" had me laughing. I didn't really buy Kira or the boss guy, or the idea that this place had 10,000 human workers - seemed like they had exactly 5, who were totally taking it easy with plenty of time to shoot the breeze while waiting for the next item to drop down the pipe. I could have done with seeing some vignettes of life on the planet where people can't find work to really sell the effects of this automation, because I didn't feel like the company was actually doing anything wrong at all besides building the creepiest delivery robots imaginable. I guess they did decide to hire more organics at the end of the day so that's cool I suppose. Edit: Also the actor playing Judy was fantastic, apparently she's off Coronation Street so I wouldn't have seen her before, but I really enjoyed her performance. dsub fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Nov 18, 2018 |
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Nov 18, 2018 21:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2D3-FkoXNU
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Nov 18, 2018 21:42
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