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Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003



Pretty sure you had to do that on some Sony-published CDs otherwise they'd install a rootkit on your computer.

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fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong
This has the proper way to marker your CDs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THbKEXBk8X0

Endless Mike posted:

Pretty sure you had to do that on some Sony-published CDs otherwise they'd install a rootkit on your computer.

Nah the way with those was to either just not use them, or hold shift every time you inserted them.

evobatman
Jul 30, 2006

it means nothing, but says everything!
Pillbug
In my post history in this thread I bought a CD player where someone had just slathered the whole insides in green.

Edit:

synthetik
Feb 28, 2007

I forgive you, Will. Will you forgive me?
why’s it upside down? so the bits don’t fall off?

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Pioneer had a whole line of "stable platter" CD players for a while, where the whole mechanism was upside-down, with the motor mounted in the tray and the laser reading from above.

I guess it was meant to appeal to turntable enthusiasts or something.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Where the gently caress would I even find a Sharpie?

ssb
Feb 16, 2006

WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!


Jerry Cotton posted:

Where the gently caress would I even find a Sharpie?

:confused: Are you in a country where they are rare or something? I don't think I've ever been anywhere in the last 20 years that doesn't have at least one Sharpie of some sort in the US.

Mister Kingdom
Dec 14, 2005

And the tears that fall
On the city wall
Will fade away
With the rays of morning light

Olympic Mathlete posted:

I still refuse to believe this was ever a thing, it's just toooooooo stupid.

This was a thing back in 1986 when I got my first CD player.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

shortspecialbus posted:

:confused: Are you in a country where they are rare or something? I don't think I've ever been anywhere in the last 20 years that doesn't have at least one Sharpie of some sort in the US.

Most people on this planet do not live in the US but do have access to CDs. So "it has to be a Sharpie!" is extremely inconvenient for the majority of music-lovers.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
A Sharpie is just a marker. Like an Edding, like it's called here in the EU.

ssb
Feb 16, 2006

WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!


Jerry Cotton posted:

Most people on this planet do not live in the US but do have access to CDs. So "it has to be a Sharpie!" is extremely inconvenient for the majority of music-lovers.

Sure but I thought Sharpies were pretty global, I guess. I know I found them without trouble when I was in Poland, and looking at their website they seem to have divisions all over the place. So it is surprising to me that they are less global than I thought, apparently. That's all.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

shortspecialbus posted:

Sure but I thought Sharpies were pretty global, I guess. I know I found them without trouble when I was in Poland, and looking at their website they seem to have divisions all over the place. So it is surprising to me that they are less global than I thought, apparently. That's all.

Yeah I found a couple of stores, via Google, that appear sell them now (or at least try to sell them). Don't think I've ever actually seen one and certainly not back when inking your CDs was a somewhat popular thing.

Importing writing or drawing implements from the US was kind of pointless when all the oldest and/or biggest manufacturers were right on the continent. Japanese products were a bit different in that they actually invented some stuff (like fibre-tipped pens) and managed to get on the market that way. Anyway they've most likely had plants in China for a while now just like everyone else so it's all the same.

Signed, Jerry "The Boring Stationery Derailer" Cotton III

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

ssb
Feb 16, 2006

WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!


Jerry Cotton posted:

Yeah I found a couple of stores, via Google, that appear sell them now (or at least try to sell them). Don't think I've ever actually seen one and certainly not back when inking your CDs was a somewhat popular thing.

Importing writing or drawing implements from the US was kind of pointless when all the oldest and/or biggest manufacturers were right on the continent. Japanese products were a bit different in that they actually invented some stuff (like fibre-tipped pens) and managed to get on the market that way. Anyway they've most likely had plants in China for a while now just like everyone else so it's all the same.

Signed, Jerry "The Boring Stationery Derailer" Cotton III

Most of this thread is a derail, tbh. I appreciate the info!

The idea of any marker - much less a sharpie specifically - affecting CDs is still stupid. I wonder if Sharpie had any marketing behind it. Business idea: Create esoteric marker only sold in one location. Convince idiots that it improves picture quality on UHD discs. Sell on ebay for ridiculous profit.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

shortspecialbus posted:

Most of this thread is a derail, tbh. I appreciate the info!

The idea of any marker - much less a sharpie specifically - affecting CDs is still stupid. I wonder if Sharpie had any marketing behind it. Business idea: Create esoteric marker only sold in one location. Convince idiots that it improves picture quality on UHD discs. Sell on ebay for ridiculous profit.

Bonus points: there's actually no ink in the marker. Just "ions" or something.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

ssb
Feb 16, 2006

WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!


Jerry Cotton posted:

Bonus points: there's actually no ink in the marker. Just "ions" or something.

Create some fancy packaging and really terrible marketing materials and we're rich.

For like the 100th time in this thread.

TomR
Apr 1, 2003
I both own and operate a pirate ship.
Nah, see we need to create a fake review site with a forum full of bots arguing about which of our bogus products work best. Then we'll really move the snake oil $5000 audiophile USB cables.

Lazlo Nibble
Jan 9, 2004

It was Weasleby, by God! At last I had the miserable blighter precisely where I wanted him!
You cannot get proper results with a common Sharpie. It has to be a #255 Eberhard Faber Design Art Marker.

spookygonk
Apr 3, 2005
Does not give a damn

Lazlo Nibble posted:

You cannot get proper results with a common Sharpie. It has to be a #255 Eberhard Faber Design Art Marker.

Didn't some people shave the edge off the CD to make it sound better?

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008

MOM WAS RIGHT


Chinese to English auto translate posted:

I went back and forth to listen, and I didn't hear any difference.


If you have always used a degaussing device and a user who affixes a disc, and hear a difference, don't try this product, it may help you.

Gromit
Aug 15, 2000

I am an oppressed White Male, Asian women wont serve me! Save me Campbell Newman!!!!!!!

shortspecialbus posted:

The idea of any marker - much less a sharpie specifically - affecting CDs is still stupid. I wonder if Sharpie had any marketing behind it. Business idea: Create esoteric marker only sold in one location. Convince idiots that it improves picture quality on UHD discs. Sell on ebay for ridiculous profit.

I did a course many years ago on data recovery for optical media. The guy there said that some marker pens were made with chemicals that could eat the label and so your CD-RW could be killed, and recommended pens made specifically for CDs. This means nothing for pressed CDs, and also has nothing to do with making the disc read better. Purely a chemical reaction - maybe the bad inks are mildly acidic (I don't remember if that was clarified, but I have certainly found older RWs where the writing on them has become a hollow outline.)

AlexDeGruven
Jun 29, 2007

Watch me pull my dongle out of this tiny box


Gromit posted:

I did a course many years ago on data recovery for optical media. The guy there said that some marker pens were made with chemicals that could eat the label and so your CD-RW could be killed, and recommended pens made specifically for CDs. This means nothing for pressed CDs, and also has nothing to do with making the disc read better. Purely a chemical reaction - maybe the bad inks are mildly acidic (I don't remember if that was clarified, but I have certainly found older RWs where the writing on them has become a hollow outline.)

The surface of a writable CD is a thin metal foil with photoreactive chemicals between it and the polycarbonate disc. It would stand to reason that certain chemicals would be able to eat through that and damage the recordable surface. Though I find it interesting that the foil is that much different than a pressed CD, but it's been a long time since I've looked into anything to do with recordable media.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010

I think the issue with writing on CDs is that the top is less protected than the bottom. Buying used CDs scratches on the top are less frequent but they frequently ruin the disc because it goes through to the data layer.

ssb
Feb 16, 2006

WOULD YOU ACCOMPANY ME ON A BRISK WALK? I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK WITH YOU!!


Gromit posted:

I did a course many years ago on data recovery for optical media. The guy there said that some marker pens were made with chemicals that could eat the label and so your CD-RW could be killed, and recommended pens made specifically for CDs. This means nothing for pressed CDs, and also has nothing to do with making the disc read better. Purely a chemical reaction - maybe the bad inks are mildly acidic (I don't remember if that was clarified, but I have certainly found older RWs where the writing on them has become a hollow outline.)

Sorry - I should have clarified that I meant the idea of using a marker on the edge of a cd (or anywhere) actually *improving* the sound of it is ludicrous. I wasn't thinking along the lines of writing on CD-Rs or anything like that. It would certainly be possible to use a marker to wreck a CD, I would say, but you're never going to make it sound better with one.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


Uh... guys... I found a difference in DACs.

No, I'm not going crazy. I have a Yamaha MG10XU with a built in DAC that I wasn't using because I was using a Fiio E17 for that. I've been having problems with an annoying ground loop, but today I noticed it only happened with the Fiio plugged in. I was going to order an SPDIF cable on Amazon and use that instead of USB to isolate the ground loop, but I remembered the Yamaha has a DAC and it's already in the signal chain, so I figured I may as well just simplify everything and use that instead. I unplugged the Fiio and switched my output device to the mixer and I immediately noticed it sounded... wrong. I wasn't expecting that so I thought maybe it was a volume difference or maybe I was just so used to the ground loop I expected it. I plugged the Fiio back in (so the ground loop was back) and switched back and forth between outputs on my PC. Both inputs on the mixer were turned up, so the noise/hum didn't change between the two and they clearly sounded different. I thought it might be volume, so I checked the VU meter and dialed them in to dead-even and I could still clearly hear the difference. I haven't done any sweeps with my calibrated mic yet to see if there is an EQ difference, but that poo poo shouldn't be happening! WTF is going on?

GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

KillHour posted:

Uh... guys... I found a difference in DACs.

No, I'm not going crazy. I have a Yamaha MG10XU with a built in DAC that I wasn't using because I was using a Fiio E17 for that. I've been having problems with an annoying ground loop, but today I noticed it only happened with the Fiio plugged in. I was going to order an SPDIF cable on Amazon and use that instead of USB to isolate the ground loop, but I remembered the Yamaha has a DAC and it's already in the signal chain, so I figured I may as well just simplify everything and use that instead. I unplugged the Fiio and switched my output device to the mixer and I immediately noticed it sounded... wrong. I wasn't expecting that so I thought maybe it was a volume difference or maybe I was just so used to the ground loop I expected it. I plugged the Fiio back in (so the ground loop was back) and switched back and forth between outputs on my PC. Both inputs on the mixer were turned up, so the noise/hum didn't change between the two and they clearly sounded different. I thought it might be volume, so I checked the VU meter and dialed them in to dead-even and I could still clearly hear the difference. I haven't done any sweeps with my calibrated mic yet to see if there is an EQ difference, but that poo poo shouldn't be happening! WTF is going on?

DACs can sound different for lots of ~reasons~. Less to do with the DAC chip itself and more to do with everything after it like the opamp.
I had a fiio something-or-other that sounded like poo poo in between my TV and my Rotel integrated. I thought my amp was hosed for a while there until I realized all the other inputs sounded fine, no matter what was plugged into them, and that DAC still sounded hosed no matter what input it used.
So I bought another DAC and it's fine now.

Neurophonic
May 2, 2009

KillHour posted:

Uh... guys... I found a difference in DACs.

No, I'm not going crazy. I have a Yamaha MG10XU with a built in DAC that I wasn't using because I was using a Fiio E17 for that. I've been having problems with an annoying ground loop, but today I noticed it only happened with the Fiio plugged in. I was going to order an SPDIF cable on Amazon and use that instead of USB to isolate the ground loop, but I remembered the Yamaha has a DAC and it's already in the signal chain, so I figured I may as well just simplify everything and use that instead. I unplugged the Fiio and switched my output device to the mixer and I immediately noticed it sounded... wrong. I wasn't expecting that so I thought maybe it was a volume difference or maybe I was just so used to the ground loop I expected it. I plugged the Fiio back in (so the ground loop was back) and switched back and forth between outputs on my PC. Both inputs on the mixer were turned up, so the noise/hum didn't change between the two and they clearly sounded different. I thought it might be volume, so I checked the VU meter and dialed them in to dead-even and I could still clearly hear the difference. I haven't done any sweeps with my calibrated mic yet to see if there is an EQ difference, but that poo poo shouldn't be happening! WTF is going on?

Just because the VU meters match doesn’t mean they’re putting out the same level, and a ground loop will induce harmonics of the fundamental too which will increase THD and possibly IMD in your speakers.

Put simply your test isn’t remotely empirical sadly.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


I measured the volume digitally with white noise and the ground loop was present for both sources since they were being mixed together.

LRADIKAL
Jun 10, 2001

Fun Shoe
You have a defective component.

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

AlexDeGruven posted:

The surface of a writable CD is a thin metal foil with photoreactive chemicals between it and the polycarbonate disc. It would stand to reason that certain chemicals would be able to eat through that and damage the recordable surface. Though I find it interesting that the foil is that much different than a pressed CD, but it's been a long time since I've looked into anything to do with recordable media.

Close but slightly off, as I understand it. The outermost surface isn't foil, it's a lacquer coat which seals and protects the foil (and dye in the case of a writeable disc). If the lacquer is damaged (by a marker whose solvent attacks it, for example), even if no immediate damage happens, oxygen, moisture, and other contaminants can now get to the foil and corrode it (if it's not gold foil), or react with the dye if it's a writeable disc.

Even pressed CDs can be killed by nothing more than a scratch which breaks the lacquer seal. The failure may not be (often is not) immediate.

DVDs (and blu-ray, I presume) are more robust against top surface damage because they're a lamination of two pieces of polycarbonate, with the foil (and possibly dye) in the middle of the sandwich. ~0.5mm of polycarb is naturally much better protection than a much thinner painted-on lacquer coat.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

KillHour posted:

WTF is going on?

Some mixers have differing EQ built into them from factory and you'll find some are marketed as having a 'British' EQ which adds more mids etc before you even get to knob-twiddling. I imagine the Fiio concentrates more on just being a simple DAC with an input and output.

I mean I've used a good few mixers over the years and some do definitely sound different despite being completely default flat through the same PA kit.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


Olympic Mathlete posted:

Some mixers have differing EQ built into them from factory and you'll find some are marketed as having a 'British' EQ which adds more mids etc before you even get to knob-twiddling. I imagine the Fiio concentrates more on just being a simple DAC with an input and output.

I mean I've used a good few mixers over the years and some do definitely sound different despite being completely default flat through the same PA kit.

But the Fiio was going straight into the mixer, so any change would be applied to that as well. And I doubt Yamaha would do that - they're famous for their overly-revealing studio monitors.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

How does it all plug together? I'm struggling to picture it. Run me through the chain including cables etc, I'm intrigued.

Neurophonic
May 2, 2009
Do you understand what a ground loop actually is? Until you fix that you are not comparing devices fairly. A ground loop will incur noise and harmonics. And yeah, do a wiring diagram. I’m pretty sure that YAMAHA mixer buses the input through its own preamps so it’s not a direct sound.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


This is not nearly as complicated as you're thinking it is. And yes, I know exactly how a ground loop works. :jerkbag:

The test looked like this:



Both DACs are hooked up via USB, and both are fed into the mixer. The mixer has both inputs live, so any sort of line noise, hum, ground loop or whatever would feed through the system, regardless of which DAC was actually doing the processing. I checked, and the Yamaha mixer is applying its preamp stage to both inputs (EQ works, as well as the FX channel, so they're sharing the bus). The only thing that changed between tests is which output was being used by the software. I set the volume levels on the mixer with an inline digital VU meter to within 0.1 dB.

My current theory is either the Fiio DAC still has some EQ stuff happening in the background (the DAC has EQ settings built in, but they're all 0'd out) or the Yamaha preamps run hot and I'm getting clipping where I wasn't getting it on the Fiio. The second one seems likely because when the channel levels are both set to unity gain, the Fiio outputs at +0dB, but the Yamaha outputs somewhere around +10dB. My EQ clips out at +6, so I can't just let it run hot. I had to attenuate the channel level on the Yamaha to get it down to line-level. I would assume the mixer can handle that cleanly, since it was built that way, but those are the only differences between the setups. The rest of the signal chain is identical and shared.

KillHour fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 29, 2018

spookygonk
Apr 3, 2005
Does not give a damn

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️
From what little I know the Japanese loves their audio woo-woo.

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

KillHour posted:

My current theory is either the Fiio DAC still has some EQ stuff happening in the background (the DAC has EQ settings built in, but they're all 0'd out) or the Yamaha preamps run hot and I'm getting clipping where I wasn't getting it on the Fiio. The second one seems likely because when the channel levels are both set to unity gain, the Fiio outputs at +0dB, but the Yamaha outputs somewhere around +10dB. My EQ clips out at +6, so I can't just let it run hot. I had to attenuate the channel level on the Yamaha to get it down to line-level. I would assume the mixer can handle that cleanly, since it was built that way, but those are the only differences between the setups. The rest of the signal chain is identical and shared.

Home audio stuff is -10dBV (0.3162 volts)
Pro audio gear is +4dBu (1.228 volts)

So yeah there's very likely a massive difference and that's what's causing at least some of the issue you're having here. Domestic gear is unbalanced, pro is balanced so that's also likely where your Fiio noise is coming into the equation so you'd need to slot an unbalanced - balanced converter in the mix somewhere to solve that one. Also unity gain balanced vs unbalanced isn't the same.

I wholeheartedly recommend Rane's white papers: https://www.rane.com/note124.html

Basically gently caress the tech industry for 'standards' that vary. Hopefully this'll help a bit.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


I ended up just using the Yamaha DAC and not bothering with the Fiio. I'm not convinced 'different' is the same as 'worse' in this case, and I don't really want to spend all my time obsessing over it when I could be just enjoying my music. Guess I'm not an audiophile. :unsmith:

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

KillHour posted:

I ended up just using the Yamaha DAC and not bothering with the Fiio. I'm not convinced 'different' is the same as 'worse' in this case, and I don't really want to spend all my time obsessing over it when I could be just enjoying my music. Guess I'm not an audiophile. :unsmith:

DACs are pretty much a solved problem and good ones cost $1-3 for the actual chip so what people pay extra for is more features [RME ADI Pro 2] forums/reddit cred [Schiit] or a noise floor well beyond the range of human perception [Benchmark].

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KillHour
Oct 28, 2007


I think you missed the entire conversation around this.

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