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On the other hand they also make stuff like Devilman which despite (because of?) being a pervert's gore and tiddy filled Jesus/Lucifer slashfic is more true to the teachings of Christ than 99% of what's produced in America
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Nov 27, 2018 08:32
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I have not watched anime since the early 2000's, but I thought EVA was the result of this cynical dude making the worst show he could on purpose, and then spiraling into a depression when dweebs actually liked it. I think that was the hot take at the time.
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Nov 27, 2018 08:46
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Biomute posted:I have not watched anime since the early 2000's, but I thought EVA was the result of this cynical dude making the worst show he could on purpose, and then spiraling into a depression when dweebs actually liked it. I think that was the hot take at the time. It was more a dude writing a weird coming of age story and playing with the dominant tropes of giant robot anime at the time- "Here's how terrible all this would be, now let's watch this damaged kid figure out how to be human," only the audience wasn't on board for that and didn't get the message of "this is about maturing, not escapism." So they got reeeaaaaally mad, some of them sent death threats, and so the creator made a sequel basically going "LOOK AT THIS. THIS IS YOU. YOU ARE THIS GARBAGE PERSON."
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Nov 27, 2018 09:00
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Here’s the secret to EVA: Both endings are Good Endings, with one just being more harsh but bittersweet. The gently caress You ending that people think exists doesn’t actually exist.
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Nov 27, 2018 09:11
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Augus posted:Here’s the secret to EVA: Both endings are Good Endings, with one just being more harsh but bittersweet. The gently caress You ending that people think exists doesn’t actually exist. The secret of Eva is that Asuka is best girl. Also, speaking of being angry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjrDbSgB9IU
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Nov 27, 2018 09:42
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Microcline posted:Late oughts hyperbolic critics is a weird thing to tilt at divorced from cultural context. If your choices in media are I mean, on one hand the shouty YouTubers are typically pretty lock step with the opinions of the IGNs, and on the same hand shouty YouTubers form literally an unbroken gradient from nice dudes who use shouty as a brand all the way to the anti-SJW Kekistan crowd. The algorithm certainly doesn't care, and will make nice short hops from Angry Joe to Your Movie Sucks to Sargon. So, yeah, I think "I'm going to use unhinged anger as my brand" is worth interrogating.
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Nov 27, 2018 09:49
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FoldableHuman posted:I mean, on one hand the shouty YouTubers are typically pretty lock step with the opinions of the IGNs Not really? Despite an often more annoying presentation, they've usually been a lot more vocal when games gently caress up, compared to big outlets who have to get their arm in a vice before they'll rebuke some of the worst practices.
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Nov 27, 2018 09:58
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Yardbomb posted:Not really? Despite an often more annoying presentation, they've usually been a lot more vocal when games gently caress up, compared to big outlets who have to get their arm in a vice before they'll rebuke some of the worst practices. Also if the IGN comments sections on literally any media they publish are anything to go on the Kek crowd all loving hate IGN itself yet can’t seem to break away from it so they’re stuck in their hellbox of screaming about how much they hate IGN on IGN until they cease existing due to their accumulation of the Mads.
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Nov 27, 2018 10:06
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This is a frustrating argument and point of view. Surely you'll just as easily if not way easier get recommendations for videos from the chud crowd if you get into videos from the lefty crowd (e.g. what you're part of) and how the bloody hell is the workings of the algorithm their fault anyway? Surely the problem then is with the algorithm, not what they do! That's a whopper of a reach. It's hardly that far from saying people who smoke weed are inevitably going to end up injecting heroin. The worst thing about all this though, is that it appears to come from a misguided feeling of superiority to these guys and what they do. There always seems to be the piping up from the usual crowd whenever there's a new Plinkett video or whatever - there's always this air of belittlement towards them. It stinks, it's childish, it actually reeks of bitterness, and unless you're going to show some sort of proof, some venn diagram that actually shows the correlation between watching Angry Joe (who by the way was one of the biggest mainstream voices out there vocally AGAINST GamerGate/harassing Anita Sarkeesian etc. to the point where he got and continues to get a ton of chud-based harassment for it) and then moving onto watching and getting big on Sargon or whatever, then frankly you should quit it because it's not a good look. For every Doug Walker or JonTron there's a lot more out there in the field doing perfectly decent work who don't deserve to be tarred with this brush because they *might* just end up with a recommendation for some YouTube dickhole (which considering the percieved state of the algorithm could potentially happen with almost anything. I imagine there's many, many bigger sources for their followings than Yahtzee, or RLM, or whomever you care to mention).
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Nov 27, 2018 10:22
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FoldableHuman posted:I mean, on one hand the shouty YouTubers are typically pretty lock step with the opinions of the IGNs, and on the same hand shouty YouTubers form literally an unbroken gradient from nice dudes who use shouty as a brand all the way to the anti-SJW Kekistan crowd. Sounds more like a thing with the algorithm than with the anger gimmick...
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Nov 27, 2018 10:46
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Archer666 posted:Sounds more like a thing with the algorithm than with the anger gimmick... There's certainly an argument that if you know pulling a level will drop poo poo all over the floor, even if you should fix the level not pulling it is a good start.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:08
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Stormgale posted:There's certainly an argument that if you know pulling a level will drop poo poo all over the floor, even if you should fix the level not pulling it is a good start. The algorithm does not actually look at the specifics of the content you're doing, just what kind of "engagement" you're pulling, and then it will match with what it believes is similar "engaging" content. The only youtube film reviewer/critic that you watch can be Lindsay Ellis but given time Youtube will start to match you with all those dishonourable wolves and dapper bats talking about the END OF STAR WARS, because they make film essays and have high "engagement" so they are the same for the algorithm.
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Nov 27, 2018 11:27
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Microcline posted:On the other hand they also make stuff like Devilman which despite (because of?) being a pervert's gore and tiddy filled Jesus/Lucifer slashfic is more true to the teachings of Christ than 99% of what's produced in America Crybaby, yes. I'm not nearly so sure about the original work, and Lady gets straight-up anti-theist. It's worth noting, though, that NGE is heavily inspired by Devilman, so that's more of a reason for the Christian/Jewish imagery than serious engagement with Abrahamic mysticism.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:14
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Jim Sterling could easily be categorized as an "angry reviewer" in the same vein for how frequently he's giving AAA a middle finger. Despite his style and tone being really hit-or-miss, categorizing him alongside raging chuds isn't useful in the least for understanding his work even if said chuds are in his recommendations sidebar because they might be talking about the same topics from a more caustic and bad-faith perspective. Anger like many things has a class character, it's a tone that inherits its values from the perspective and end goals of the reviewer.
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Nov 27, 2018 12:54
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Fascists rely on gateways, and it is worth noticing how affect and subject matter make it easy to move a few steps closer to reactionary videos. Fascism is basically pure affect anyway. It actually surprises me a little that sargon doesn’t do video game reviews, but I guess that would require paying attention to something for more than three minutes.
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Nov 27, 2018 13:08
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Archer666 posted:Sounds more like a thing with the algorithm than with the anger gimmick... Electronico6 posted:The algorithm does not actually look at the specifics of the content you're doing, just what kind of "engagement" you're pulling, and then it will match with what it believes is similar "engaging" content. The only youtube film reviewer/critic that you watch can be Lindsay Ellis but given time Youtube will start to match you with all those dishonourable wolves and dapper bats talking about the END OF STAR WARS, because they make film essays and have high "engagement" so they are the same for the algorithm. CYBEReris posted:Jim Sterling could easily be categorized as an "angry reviewer" in the same vein for how frequently he's giving AAA a middle finger. Despite his style and tone being really hit-or-miss, categorizing him alongside raging chuds isn't useful in the least for understanding his work even if said chuds are in his recommendations sidebar because they might be talking about the same topics from a more caustic and bad-faith perspective. This is what I was thinking too, it feels very dishonest to act like there's some intrinsic problem with people doing 'angry' personas or that people should have to uproot and not do this or that style of whatever, because a lovely corporate algorithm assigns them too close to "similar" but wholly different in tone content by way of it's ridiculously broken metrics. You can watch any number of the farthest left political channels you want, but after a while youtube's broke brain is gonna start trying to sideline DapperMcNationalistFrog #10391 in there among the usual shits like Carlgon and them, so what's the solution there, just cede ground on anything that has horrible right wingers near it's presentation at all?
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Nov 27, 2018 13:44
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Yardbomb posted:This is what I was thinking too, it feels very dishonest to act like there's some intrinsic problem with people doing 'angry' personas or that people should have to uproot and not do this or that style of whatever, because a lovely corporate algorithm assigns them too close to "similar" but wholly different in tone content by way of it's ridiculously broken metrics. You can watch any number of the farthest left political channels you want, but after a while youtube's broke brain is gonna start trying to sideline DapperMcNationalistFrog #10391 in there among the usual shits like Carlgon and them, so what's the solution there, just cede ground on anything that has horrible right wingers near it's presentation at all? This this this. The only thing to do is produce content that counters the folks on the other side that attracts audiences. You can't exactly ask people to change the entire way that they've made their living just because there's a chance that videos by Sargon might be recommended on their sidebar, that's completely unreasonable and it isn't even their fault. And as people have mentioned, it's hardly something that can just be limited to people with 'angry' personas.
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Nov 27, 2018 13:57
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It might be worth figuring out why it is white men in particular are so angry all the time.
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Nov 27, 2018 14:02
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Kim Justice posted:This this this. Also I get way more chud type poo poo from the algorithm hell pit when I watch more serious stuff not the regular game nerds or even the yelling ones. Mostly a lot of the chuds try to cloak there poo poo as political education poo poo or culture poo poo.
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Nov 27, 2018 14:08
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:It might be worth figuring out why it is white men in particular are so angry all the time. White people are over-represented in videomaking content and so are going to be a lot of the guys on camera mad at things? It's not like there's not PoC with angryman personas. Dapper_Swindler posted:Also I get way more chud type poo poo from the algorithm hell pit when I watch more serious stuff not the regular game nerds or even the yelling ones. Mostly a lot of the chuds try to cloak there poo poo as political education poo poo or culture poo poo. A lot of them try to hide under ~reel historical fax~ poo poo yeah. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 14:18
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Yardbomb posted:
oh yeah, its a coin toss when you look for history videos. especially anything before the 20th century.
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Nov 27, 2018 14:37
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Kim Justice posted:The only thing to do is produce content that counters the folks on the other side that attracts audiences. You can't exactly ask people to change the entire way that they've made their living just because there's a chance that videos by Sargon might be recommended on their sidebar, that's completely unreasonable and it isn't even their fault. And as people have mentioned, it's hardly something that can just be limited to people with 'angry' personas. That's certainly true. While frustrating, I'd rather give Ellis the like and view and whatnot even if that means YouTube is going to barf Mundane Matt or the Amazing Atheist on my mentions, because that's a price I'll pay for keeping Lindsay around.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:15
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Microcline posted:I'm not sure there is a "mainstream" gamer culture anymore. Is it mobile gamers? Madden/FIFA players? People who just play one MMO/competitive multiplayer game at a time for two or three years? Steam 1%-ers (and their console equivalents)? Teenagers? Do they or do they not interact with gaming-specific media? Part of the improvement I think is that there's no longer a pursuit for consensus. Metacritic and the old 7-10 review sites are dying. The closest replacement is Steam reviews, but subjectivity is baked in there as in most cases it's a measurement of "if you're the kind of person who would buy this game, what's the probability that you'll like it?" Sorry I was unclear but what I meant by "mainstream" gamer culture is stuff thats explicitly marketed towards capital "G" gamers and reinforces that consumer identity. So not like the REAL gaming mainstream (which would be phones and stuff) but the mainstream whatever demographics are targeted for streams and youtube content of the newest games and poo poo. Still not very clear lol.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:45
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Archer666 posted:Also, speaking of being angry: Demonetized on account of Other Joe's boxer shorts. I really would like to see someone do a deep dive comparison on the makeup of the Scorched Beasts to the Skyrim Dragons to see just how accurate it is when we say that they literally dropped Skyrim Dragons into the Wasteland. Because like I've said elsewhere it's not a bad thing in theory that they would take an already existing asset from a previous work and put it into a new product. Pretty much every creative medium in history does that. But 76 is such a toxic product and the discourse around it is so acidic that it unintentionally becomes something to lambast by association I guess. Like if this were just a piece of wacky Fallout 4 DLC hunting Americana Cryptids and the payoff was "Holy poo poo it's like a dragon from Skyrim, the Madmen did it." the response would probably have been more positive.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:52
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Viewtiful Jew posted:Demonetized on account of Other Joe's boxer shorts. i think a big deal that hurts the game is basically anything you imagine/dream about 76 when it got announced doesn't exist in the game. the game is way to limited in its scope/gameplay/factions/pvp/building/etc.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:57
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:It might be worth figuring out why it is white men in particular are so angry all the time. Make a tweet thread where you diagnose it with TV Tropes style Proper Nouns and maybe you can solve the problem. The real problem imo is people know a lot of reasons why men are angry and stupid but the solutions are not culturally "normal", and there's low collective willpower to use the state or even community resources to socialize them differently. People get locked in the trap of just diagnosing every new permutation of toxic or just annoying behavior and then get frustrated that the conversation doesn't lead to any tangible progress and frequently invites mostly bad faith responses or cheerleading. I think it's a lot of why the culture war is such a powerful force in peoples lives, cultural critique (even in bad faith) is the only way a lot of people feel comfortable approaching political and social problems.
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Nov 27, 2018 15:59
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As a POC, I was angry at Hollywood before the white people were. And I still am. I'm just not hot on the whole "Anger is bad" thing. It's a negative emotion, and lately I've been looking down on the desire for the absence of tension.
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Nov 27, 2018 16:29
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I feel like there's a qualitative difference between anger at actual problems and the anger in Angry Reviews. The latter is mostly performative and tends to involve nitpicking and making problems up. (And also reacting with an inappropriate amount of emotion to those things.) When you make anger your shtick, you have to be angry all the time, whether it's warranted or not. I also think it's a bit weird to place all the blame for the angry guy -> chud pathway on The Algorithm, when we were seeing a lot of proto-chuds flocking to angry reviewers like Spoony and Cinema Snob before the magical mystical Algorithm was a thing. It's absolutely worth looking into how the anger shtick might encourage a certain type of person in chuddish directions.
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Nov 27, 2018 17:12
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I feel like white anger is almost always about not being cosseted and catered to, or is about the angry man as the universal measure of clarity or taste. James Rolfe’s video about Castlevania II, for example, is about how it doesn’t make sense to him because it doesn’t follow the rules he expects it to follow. That’s pretty different from rage directed at injustice or a crooked loving system, which doesn’t really provoke much white rage even when white people act against it.
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Nov 27, 2018 17:30
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Puppy Time posted:I also think it's a bit weird to place all the blame for the angry guy -> chud pathway on The Algorithm, when we were seeing a lot of proto-chuds flocking to angry reviewers like Spoony and Cinema Snob before the magical mystical Algorithm was a thing. The thing is Spoony for instance has pretty much always made it clear they weren't on those idiots side, he poo poo on goobergators and MRA types, he shits on the chuds now, those people will keep patronizing someone who's explicitly dumping on them either way and will just plug their ears or otherwise try to come up with reasons to ignore the creator. Remember the craziness that was a bunch of right wingers convinced that Chip Cheezum was totally just being held opinion-hostage by his girlfriend and friends, that he definitely had to be cool and on their side secretly, until he flat out rebuked these people? Even now a bunch of them still likely begrudgingly watch him. Stupid chud assholes like the same entertainment as anyone else, they're also just deluded creeps and that's not the fault of someone playing mad at terrible movies/games/whatever except when they're actually espousing those terrible views. Antifa Turkeesian posted:That’s pretty different from rage directed at injustice or a crooked loving system I mean, we were talking about "Angry at games video man" here, plenty of them get mad at exploitative bullshit that keeps being shoved into games, but otherwise they're not that liable to launch into a condemnation of state sponsored violence in the middle east, because that's not what's being talked about in the field of "This new game is crap and trying to push gambling on kids" usually. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Nov 27, 2018 |
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Nov 27, 2018 17:32
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Yardbomb posted:The thing is Spoony for instance has pretty much always made it clear they weren't on those idiots side, he poo poo on goobergators and MRA types, he shits on the chuds now, those people will keep patronizing someone who's explicitly dumping on them either way and will just plug their ears or otherwise try to come up with reasons to ignore the creator. Remember the craziness that was a bunch of right wingers convinced that Chip Cheezum was totally just being held opinion-hostage by his girlfriend and friends, that he definitely had to be cool and on their side secretly, until he flat out rebuked these people? Even now a bunch of them still likely begrudgingly watch him. Stupid chud assholes like the same entertainment as anyone else, they're also just deluded creeps and that's not the fault of someone playing mad at terrible movies/games/whatever except when they're actually espousing those terrible views. Do you think that the comfort with expressing over the top anger over dumb poo poo is just naturally occurring in chuds, and would be there no matter what? Because I'm pretty sure that, while a performer may repudiate their views, they're still getting some influence from it, and I think it's worth examining what kind of unintended messages are coming across in any kind of presentation.
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Nov 27, 2018 17:48
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Puppy Time posted:Do you think that the comfort with expressing over the top anger over dumb poo poo is just naturally occurring in chuds, and would be there no matter what? Because I'm pretty sure that, while a performer may repudiate their views, they're still getting some influence from it, and I think it's worth examining what kind of unintended messages are coming across in any kind of presentation. So now that we're somehow just entertaining the premise of there being a white angry man force even though the named examples weren't all white or angry, what conclusion are trying to come to. That being angry at video games is bad because it's not being angry at the right injustices? Well, what's being angry at people for being angry at video game, then. That tone policing is okay because some chud somehow might get empowered by it? Don't buy it. That's nuts. "It MIGHT empower a chud" when it's just some natural self expression like "being angry" is a terrible justification that accomplishes nothing but giving chuds direct control over how we communicate. Plus justifying the use tone policing for something as stupid as video game youtubers weakens the use of it as a counter to actual injustice. You can't say "you're tone policing" to someone asking why a black man is angry at the police states continual murders if tone policing is a thing that is sometimes OK especially in trivial matters. Echo Chamber posted:As a POC, I was angry at Hollywood before the white people were. And I still am. It's called tone policing. Time and time again it's been used by white people to dismiss injustice towards minorities. I'd rather it stay a label for that and understood to be a thing that is wrong to do.
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Nov 27, 2018 18:02
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Jesus that broken leg in the Bois video  .
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Nov 27, 2018 18:29
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Yardbomb posted:This is what I was thinking too, it feels very dishonest to act like there's some intrinsic problem with people doing 'angry' personas or that people should have to uproot and not do this or that style of whatever, because a lovely corporate algorithm assigns them too close to "similar" but wholly different in tone content by way of it's ridiculously broken metrics. You can watch any number of the farthest left political channels you want, but after a while youtube's broke brain is gonna start trying to sideline DapperMcNationalistFrog #10391 in there among the usual shits like Carlgon and them, so what's the solution there, just cede ground on anything that has horrible right wingers near it's presentation at all? I mean, sure, whatever, but Jim literally did a whole rebrand away from pseudo-fascist imagery specifically because of concerns over exactly this whole broad subject. Also the veneration of anger-for-anger's-sake is kinda its own self-standing problem even if you ignore the chuds, it's not really a good and healthy point to start from no matter how you want to cut it, but that's also hard to ignore since anger-for-anger's-sake is chud foundational philosophy. So, yeah, I would argue that marketing yourself primarily off anger is about as reckless as Jim's V For Vendetta schtick was.
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Nov 27, 2018 18:36
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I feel like white anger is almost always about not being cosseted and catered to, or is about the angry man as the universal measure of clarity or taste. James Rolfe’s video about Castlevania II, for example, is about how it doesn’t make sense to him because it doesn’t follow the rules he expects it to follow. while i agree with your overall point, AVGN is terrible example because its all a character who is supposed to be over the top. the castlevania 2 thing was because he sucked at it as kid and wanted to talk about it as his character. when he does videos as himself, he is calm and collected and just talks about stuff. no anger fake or otherwise.
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Nov 27, 2018 19:00
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Yeah, the Nerd is one of the few review characters I actually buy as a character, and that's because Rolfe's ridiculously earnest. And his real passion is amateur film, too, so the Nerd's basically been a gag since his inception.
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Nov 27, 2018 19:02
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The Bee posted:Yeah, the Nerd is one of the few review characters I actually buy as a character, and that's because Rolfe's ridiculously earnest. And his real passion is amateur film, too, so the Nerd's basically been a gag since his inception. yeah, he seems like genuinly cool dude and most of his nerd stuff now is alot more informative with weird film gags added wrather then some armake 21 type screetching. he lives like maybe an hour away from him.
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Nov 27, 2018 19:07
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Archer666 posted:The secret of Eva is that Asuka is best girl. I know it's kind of angry joe's schtick to do a bunch of dress up, but I'm kind of sick of props being used to establish the reviewer's "cred" with the series. Take LGR's recent video on 76, where's he's flanked by boxes for Fallout 1+2, Fallout Tactics, Fallout New Vegas and a Fallout 4 lunch box.  I think it just has the side effect of just keeping the brand in people's faces for longer, for a game that will ultimately utilize that public consciousness staying power once their first round of content updates rolls around. Then you'll start seeing articles like "Fallout 76 then & now" about how now's finally a great time to jump in. Ultimately marketing will keep this game alive and no hard lessons will be learned.
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Nov 27, 2018 19:16
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Dork457 posted:I know it's kind of angry joe's schtick to do a bunch of dress up, but I'm kind of sick of props being used to establish the reviewer's "cred" with the series. Take LGR's recent video on 76, where's he's flanked by boxes for Fallout 1+2, Fallout Tactics, Fallout New Vegas and a Fallout 4 lunch box. true. though my favorite new vegas was broken mess when it came out, but it was also, you know, new vegas. if bethesda starts adding features and content fixes for 76, i might give it a shot someday.
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Nov 27, 2018 19:21
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I can't watch it until tomorrow, but Maggie Mae Fish put out a video about Fight Club that I imagine is super-timely in light of the cliff the culture has gone over between 1999 and now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLOFLE4JRw Also possibly relevant to angry reviewers and white male anger generally.
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Nov 27, 2018 19:25
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