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I, Butthole posted:I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that, but ignoring the effects it had on cinema/censorship is where it gets dicey. I own it, I own Salo, I own Chinatown - all abominable movies in different ways, but also essential in a historical context. I think it's wrong to call Salò abominable as it used the disturbing imagery to rail against fascism - it wasn't brutality for its own sake but a deliberate choice designed to make the audience directly confront the horror.
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Nov 30, 2018 07:02
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Basebf555 posted:It's not like anybody involved with it's production is alive to profit from it. It's a historical curiosity at this point. I know the film's technical importance in film making but the scene from the BlackkKlansman makes me reluctant to ever watch it.
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Nov 30, 2018 07:05
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CPL593H posted:I know the film's technical importance in film making but the scene from the BlackkKlansman makes me reluctant to ever watch it. It holds the same place as Triumph of the Will. It's a technically genius film that holds an important place in film history but no one ever needs to actually watch because you can see examples of all those same techniques from later films that aren't abhorrent in their subject matter. Do they belong in a museum and in a film class? Sure. Do they belong on anyone's shelf at home? I mean, you do you, but I'd probably sever immediately from anyone who owned either and not believe any "but history" reason they gave me for why they have it.
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Nov 30, 2018 08:38
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Vince MechMahon posted:It holds the same place as Triumph of the Will. It's a technically genius film that holds an important place in film history but no one ever needs to actually watch because you can see examples of all those same techniques from later films that aren't abhorrent in their subject matter. Do they belong in a museum and in a film class? Sure. Do they belong on anyone's shelf at home? I mean, you do you, but I'd probably sever immediately from anyone who owned either and not believe any "but history" reason they gave me for why they have it. Yep, pretty much. If I saw a copy of it sitting on a friend's shelf, the first thing I'd say is "seriously? Why?"
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Nov 30, 2018 08:42
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You can indulge in problematic things without being or becoming sympathetic to them.
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Nov 30, 2018 08:48
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Teenage Fansub posted:You can indulge in problematic things without being or becoming sympathetic to them. I agree with this to a point, but I also just don't have any interest in watching The Birth of a Nation. Much like Cannibal Holocaust is an important and innovative horror film, I have absolutely no interest in ever seeing it. There's a lot of movies like this.
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Nov 30, 2018 09:01
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When I was in college, I already had a decent size DVD collection, inclusive of Kino's Griffith Masterworks set - which included BOAN, as well as Intolerance, Broken Blossoms, Orphans of the Storm, and a collection of short films. One of my roommates was from Ivory Coast. He was going for a Ph.D in American history. One day, he casually asked me if I had a copy of The Birth of a Nation on DVD. I don't know how many times I stressed it was part of a box set and it was because I had an interest in silent film. He borrowed the disc. He returned it a few days later and remarked how it's a revealing look into America's past. It actually sparked an interest in silent film with him because he wanted to see what other filmmakers did. I got him hooked on Chaplin largely due to the socialist themes of Modern Times.
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Nov 30, 2018 13:49
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Kinda depends on what else you have on the shelf I think. If it's sitting next to Eraserhead and that Salvador Dali movie with the eyeball being sliced or whatever, then I get it. If it's sitting next to Transformers and Boondock Saints...
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Nov 30, 2018 14:30
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I don't think Boondock Saints fans have any interest in watching a black and white silent film.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:04
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Sir Lemming posted:Kinda depends on what else you have on the shelf I think. If it's sitting next to Eraserhead and that Salvador Dali movie with the eyeball being sliced or whatever, then I get it. If it's sitting next to Transformers and Boondock Saints... Yea I mean there's a context to everything. If you've got a huge comprehensive movie collection with hundreds of films, no I don't think it's all that weird to see Birth of a Nation there on the shelf. But if you go into someone's house and they have like six movies on a shelf and one of them is Birth of a Nation, well that indicates something a lot different. feedmyleg posted:I don't think Boondock Saints fans have any interest in watching a black and white silent film. Exactly, so if Birth of a Nation is there you know why. You know where their head was at when they bought that movie. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 15:07
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I think it's weird to open your wallet for a personal copy of Birth of a Nation.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:08
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That set sounds interesting less for the film itself than for those extras, especially those documentaries.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:20
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TheScott2K posted:I think it's weird to open your wallet for a personal copy of Birth of a Nation. I mean, when you buy Birth of a Nation these days I'm pretty sure the money just goes to the BFI doesn't it? I just don't really get where the specific issue with "opening your wallet" or paying for it comes in. If you say it shouldn't be watched by anyone at all well ok that's a completely different argument.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:21
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TheScott2K posted:I think it's weird to open your wallet for a personal copy of Birth of a Nation.  I would like to see it some time because of it's significance in film history, but I also don't want to own it on purpose either. I'm also fairly OK with never seeing it.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:23
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Basebf555 posted:I mean, when you buy Birth of a Nation these days I'm pretty sure the money just goes to the BFI doesn't it? I just don't really get where the specific issue with "opening your wallet" or paying for it comes in. If you say it shouldn't be watched by anyone at all well ok that's a completely different argument. I'm saying if you have some academic interest in watching the film itself just pirate the fucker.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:23
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TheScott2K posted:I'm saying if you have some academic interest in watching the film itself just pirate the fucker. Again though, in this case what's the difference? The money doesn't go into the pockets of anyone who made the movie. The most recent set was put out by BFI, a reputable(as far as I know) film restoration and preservation organization. What's bad about them getting money?
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Nov 30, 2018 15:26
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I think it's weird to open your wallet for a personal copy of Birth of a Nation. If the Anti-Defamation League started selling Nazi armbands I wouldn't be like "1 please, this will fit perfectly on my history wall and it's okay because the ADL fights anti-Semitism." It's still a loving Nazi armband and why is that in anyone's house TheScott2K fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 15:32
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TheScott2K posted:I think it's weird to open your wallet for a personal copy of Birth of a Nation. You really don't get any sort of historical insight or education from simply looking at a Nazi armband. For that you have to go to a legit museum where exhibits are designed to give you that insight along with the artifacts. It's an apples to oranges comparison.
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Nov 30, 2018 15:54
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You don't get any historical insight from running your fingers over the spine of your Special Edition copy of Birth of a Nation either. We all love our collections but let's be real - none of us are running a film preservation project in our homes.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:05
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Basebf555 posted:You really don't get any sort of historical insight or education from simply looking at a Nazi armband. For that you have to go to a legit museum where exhibits are designed to give you that insight along with the artifacts. It's an apples to oranges comparison. I think buying a translation of Mein Kampf would be a better analogy
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Nov 30, 2018 16:14
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broke: buying a copy of birth of a nation woke: stealing from a film preservation charity
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Nov 30, 2018 16:29
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Iron Crowned posted:I think buying a translation of Mein Kampf would be a better analogy If someone had a huge WWII literature collection made up of hundreds or thousands of books, I wouldn't assume they were a Nazi for owning a copy of Mein Kampf. Collectors can be weird in that some of them are after that feeling of owning everything there is on a given subject. It's weird but in a normal eccentric sense, not "uh oh this dude's a Nazi".
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Nov 30, 2018 16:35
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Collecting Nazi poo poo as a private citizen is suspect as hell, good God.
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Nov 30, 2018 16:42
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I purchased the TT edition because it's the only way to see the restoration in the US. It won't play in any theaters and it's certainly not getting on any streaming. It's also the last silent edition authorized by Griffith (before the 1930 recut for sound), so it actually has some backpedling in the opening. Photoplay Productions did the restoration and they also did Napoleon, Phantom of the Opera, and Intolerance. There could be a touch of naïveté since Twilight Time and Photoplay Productions (who did the 2K restoration/reconstruction) are both run by Brits, though. Flicker Alley originally announced a 100th anniversary edition.
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Nov 30, 2018 17:48
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"The Birth of a Nation is a drat fine movie both as entertainment and historical interest." "The racism depicted in The Birth of a Nation is gross and inexcusable." Both of those statements can be true at once.
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Nov 30, 2018 19:03
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Spatulater bro! posted:"The Birth of a Nation is a drat fine movie both as entertainment and historical interest." 
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Nov 30, 2018 19:23
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one of the sad ironies of getting interested in film history is that you're basically obligated to confront a bunch of decidedly racist stuff: - I forget who said it first (I want to say Mark Cousins in his deeply enlightening series The Story of Film) but pre-narrative cinema was a lot more inclusive - if you could make something spectacular happen, the camera loved you - the most preeminent piece of popular filmed entertainment before BOAN was arguably the recording of the Jack Johnson/Jim Jeffries boxing match, which most audiences went to see because they were terrified of the black guy and wanted to see the white guy knock him out. the movie ends abruptly because Johnson beat the poo poo out of Jeffries and the footage owners thought audiences would be unable to cope with how badly the white guy lost - thanks to The Jazz Singer, the first synced sound (most?) people heard was an actor in blackface doing a minstrel show - Gone With The Wind doesn't get screened very often any more either since it's almost as problematic as BOAN having said all that, I will not be buying a copy because I have always found BOAN to be dull and campy. Intolerance is a little more interesting due to the way it's structured but even then I still struggle to see it as anything other than the first ever expression of SO MUCH FOR THE TOLERANT LEFT
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Nov 30, 2018 19:29
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I understand why someone would want to have that film, especially if they're interested in the history of movies or race in America, and the set has quality features that contextualize and expand on the film. I don't think there's anyone out there where their only racist tell is a copy of that movie. It's easy to judge people, but maybe give them the benefit of the doubt. Like, if I love history, I might have a copy of Mein Kampf because it's a direct look into Hitler's mind. There's a value in that. Now, if I have that and a bunch of Screwdriver records, then yeah. There's something wrong there.
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Nov 30, 2018 19:38
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You people get that the movie is more than just racist stuff, right? That the entire first 1.5 hours is a story centered around war and relationships that has nothing about the KKK? Not to mention the film is a stunning example of editing before filmmakers even knew how to edit. Griffith basically invented movie editing as we know it, and watching it for the first time is incredibly entertaining. There's plenty to love about the film. True there's a lot of racist crap in the second half, but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I think most people who decry the movie have never actually seen it.
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Nov 30, 2018 20:20
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Spatulater bro! posted:You people get that the movie is more than just racist stuff, right? That the entire first 1.5 hours is a story centered around war and relationships that has nothing about the KKK? Not to mention the film is a stunning example of editing before filmmakers even knew how to edit. Griffith basically invented movie editing as we know it, and watching it for the first time is incredibly entertaining. There's plenty to love about the film. True there's a lot of racist crap in the second half, but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. actually started the post with "you people" TheScott2K fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 20:33
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TheScott2K posted:
Are you implying my post was racist?
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Nov 30, 2018 21:16
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Spatulater bro! posted:Are you implying my post was racist? No, I'm actually saying it. The "there's plenty to love about the film. True there's a lot of racist crap in the second half, but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater" bit really tells on you. The movie is full-on racist propaganda but there's just so much craft to it. The craft shouldn't win that easily when it comes to your shelf space. Be better than this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 30, 2018 21:23
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You're not a very intelligent person.
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Nov 30, 2018 21:24
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Spatulater bro! posted:You're not a very intelligent person. I'm speaking from experience: you're posting the kind of poo poo that will get brought up two years from now as an illustration of how dumb and racist you are. Think real hard about why "the first half with the war and relationships" might be part of the racist propaganda and can't be cleanly separated from it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 30, 2018 21:29
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lmao, just lmao at anyone who would bother defending Birth of a Nation in 2018 Sure it's part of film history, but so is a ton of other reprehensible poo poo. It's trash and you're trash if you enjoy it.
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Nov 30, 2018 21:37
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Birth of a Nation isn’t exactly enjoyable but it’s valuable because it’s an unsanitized version of the history we were taught for over a century. The narrative was always that Reconstruction was too harsh on the South and that Northern carpetbaggers were a problem, and this film outright says that they were a problem because they were helping make sure black people could vote. As controversial as the film was when released, it was saying what was overtly in history books for decades after. Woodrow Wilson tried to walk back his praise of it but a lot of the caption text is from his historical writings. None of which makes this a must see but it’s an illustration of the white supremacist mindset in America, and of just how pervasive that has been.
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Nov 30, 2018 22:03
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So just confirming. Will I finally stop being racist if I put my copy of Birth of a Nation on it's own Billy bookcase, away from the rest of my films so they don't become contaminated with the racism, with a little placard saying 'I'm not racist', so that people won't think I'm racist? Edit: Also with specialized lighting to draw attention to my lack of racism shrine. SomeJazzyRat fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Nov 30, 2018 |
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Nov 30, 2018 22:04
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SomeJazzyRat posted:So just confirming. Will I finally stop being racist if I put my copy of Birth of a Nation on it's own Billy bookcase, away from the rest of my films so they don't become contaminated with the racism, with a little placard saying 'I'm not racist', so that people won't think I'm racist? No, you gotta hide it under your basement John Wick style
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Nov 30, 2018 22:06
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Maxwell Lord posted:Birth of a Nation isn’t exactly enjoyable but it’s valuable because it’s an unsanitized version of the history we were taught for over a century. The narrative was always that Reconstruction was too harsh on the South and that Northern carpetbaggers were a problem, and this film outright says that they were a problem because they were helping make sure black people could vote. Well said, though I would argue that it is enjoyable for people (like me and probably others in CineD) who adore watching early examples of technical innovations that would become standard filmmaking techniques. Melies, Luimere brothers, Porter, Griffith, etc. I love seeing these guys toy around with the then-brand new medium and do incredible things with it. But I guess that makes me a racist 
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Nov 30, 2018 22:09
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SomeJazzyRat posted:So just confirming. Will I finally stop being racist if I put my copy of Birth of a Nation on it's own Billy bookcase, away from the rest of my films so they don't become contaminated with the racism, with a little placard saying 'I'm not racist', so that people won't think I'm racist? Just make a special altar in your closet for it next to your shrine to blackface already.
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Nov 30, 2018 22:12
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