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SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib

Murmur Twin posted:

Also, if you die and flip town, it’d confirm KB as either town himself or deathproof (and thus almost certainly town because that’d be broken for scum or SK)

How does me flipping town clear KB in any way shape or form?????

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Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

SalTheBard posted:

How does me flipping town clear KB in any way shape or form?????

Uhh doesn’t your vig only kill people that share your alignment?

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Murmur Twin posted:

Uhh doesn’t your vig only kill people that don’t share your alignment?

Mafia edit

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Murmur Twin posted:

Uhh doesn’t your vig only kill people that share your alignment?

Unless they're totally deathproof in which case it proves nothing, obviously. You should know this.

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Rhjamiz posted:

Unless they're totally deathproof in which case it proves nothing, obviously. You should know this.

Deathproof what? Scum? SK?

How could town possibly win a game where those roles exist?

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

People thinking Sal flipping town clears KB are sus as gently caress.

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Murmur Twin posted:

Deathproof what? Scum? SK?

How could town possibly win a game where those roles exist?

This is CYOR I'm not assuming anything about balance.

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Rhjamiz posted:

People thinking Sal flipping town clears KB are sus as gently caress.

I promise you I’m a survivor and expect to be voted (without a fight from me) if town is anywhere near LYLO.

What part of what I’m saying is wrong?

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Rhjamiz posted:

This is CYOR I'm not assuming anything about balance.

Ok so tell me why a scum KB would claim deathproof instead of letting Sal’s role give him a town result?

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Murmur Twin posted:

I promise you I’m a survivor and expect to be voted (without a fight from me) if town is anywhere near LYLO.

What part of what I’m saying is wrong?

The part where you think a claimed deathproof person is cleared because they didn't die.

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Rhjamiz posted:

The part where you think a claimed deathproof person is cleared because they didn't die.

We can agree to disagree on that I think.

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Murmur Twin posted:

Ok so tell me why a scum KB would claim deathproof instead of letting Sal’s role give him a town result?

No idea. If I were to borrow KB's own logic, because doing so makes you think he's torn, so it's the perfect scum play.

But I don't believe that. I just don't believe it clears him, either.

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Torn = town

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib

Rhjamiz posted:

People thinking Sal flipping town clears KB are sus as gently caress.

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Rhjamiz posted:

No idea. If I were to borrow KB's own logic, because doing so makes you think he's torn, so it's the perfect scum play.

But I don't believe that. I just don't believe it clears him, either.

What are your opinions of my other two main arguments? Which again is

1 - he accidentally said something that scum knew, but town didn’t (that I was mason’ed with pera). If that’s not a scumslip it’s a hell of a coincidence

2 - read his d2 and d3 content about his role. Do you think a town Sal has he wherewithal to lie about his role (complete with “I’m so mad I have no vig, which is why I’m checked out a bit”) on d2 despite being so frustrated he’s self-voting?

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
The fact that I confused two P names isn't a surprise. It's my classic "post in a hurry without double checking" thing that has been a signature move.

I was upset more about the scum push on me, but I'm always thinking "what if? what if?" so of course I'm going to lie about having a juggernaut vig. I don't want to give scum a reason to push me even harder than they already were, and if I make it to the night I want to have it in my pocket to use without being roleblocked or whatever sort of bullshit exists in a game with random unlimited dayvigs.

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

Murmur Twin posted:

What are your opinions of my other two main arguments? Which again is

1 - he accidentally said something that scum knew, but town didn’t (that I was mason’ed with pera). If that’s not a scumslip it’s a hell of a coincidence

2 - read his d2 and d3 content about his role. Do you think a town Sal has he wherewithal to lie about his role (complete with “I’m so mad I have no vig, which is why I’m checked out a bit”) on d2 despite being so frustrated he’s self-voting?

1 is the only thing that actually looks scummy to me.

2 I don't see why not? People harping on Sal not fully revealing his role when it definitely is something scum would kill over as if town doesn't routinely do this in every game with roles.

Rhjamiz
Oct 28, 2007

I want a roll call of everyone who thinks Sal is today's best lynch option

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

SalTheBard posted:

The fact that I confused two P names isn't a surprise. It's my classic "post in a hurry without double checking" thing that has been a signature move.

I was upset more about the scum push on me, but I'm always thinking "what if? what if?" so of course I'm going to lie about having a juggernaut vig. I don't want to give scum a reason to push me even harder than they already were, and if I make it to the night I want to have it in my pocket to use without being roleblocked or whatever sort of bullshit exists in a game with random unlimited dayvigs.

Why lie instead of saying “hey townies, I have a one-shot brutal cop and I think you should give me a chance to use it before you execute me”? And why throw in the part about how it was making the game hard for you to follow - that was just a total fabrication, correct?

Do you at least see how it makes sense to be skeptical of someone who has openly lied? Like I feel like you seem to think that it’s completely unreasonable for people to be suspicious of you, which doesn’t seem fair to me.

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

Rhjamiz posted:

I want a roll call of everyone who thinks Sal is today's best lynch option

:tipshat:

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
Why would I say that and have a chance for it to be redirected?

Murmur Twin
Feb 11, 2003

An ever-honest pacifist with no mind for tricks.

SalTheBard posted:

Like I said I wasn't very creative (which I think is part of why I'm a little "meh" on this game, because my big moment to Giga Drill Break someone was over in the first hour the game was open.

This is the part that I just really don’t think town Sal would ever say.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib

Murmur Twin posted:

This is the part that I just really don’t think town Sal would ever say.

At the time I thought it was true because I assumed I was getting cuddled

Max
Nov 30, 2002

OK here is something we can all chew on right now as well. I am absolutely not going to comment on every single vote, but it is worth it to go through this and see what was happening. I'm starting with where the train picked up, in my mind, with the sal v. b- vote.

King Burgundy posted:

Agreed. If he ever becomes part of the game, he's near the top of my list.

---

Speaking of top of my list though, I've been getting some scum vibes from Sal. This doesn't feel like his town game.

##vote Sal


Now that Yami has started posting maybe Sal will come back and wow me though.

Pressure vote.

Bifauxnen posted:

What a strong effort, Yami-san! I'm feeling a little better about you now.

I have similar feelings to you and KB about Sal, so I wouldn't mind at all if we focused there instead for today.

##vote Sal



Isn't this strange, though. You're feeling even better about Nat from his recent posts? Maybe it's because I can only work up vague suspicions on so many people. The rest of you must be so much more confident.

But I didn't get that feeling from Nat-kun... if his only suspicions worth mentioning are Yami and b-minus, and the b-minus one looks especially questionable today... rather than confidence, it feels a bit ominous, doesn't it? Like perhaps he's holding back, not able to freely offer more thoughts.


Pressure Vote

peramene posted:



##vote salthebard
A vote, reacting to Sal's capitalization presumably


No surprise here

SalTheBard posted:

:shrug:

Can't help how I feel.

##unvote


Yami Fenrir posted:

Continuation of thoughts:

Pera hasn't really been contributing much from what I can tell, as was pointed out previously

I don't know if its their meta or whatever, as I barely played with them.

But the fact remains that they barely contributed.

##vote peramene

Some content to go with the commentary, please?

This is an interesting vote, it's one of the few votes during this time that goes against the sal / b- grain. I haven't seen much from Yami this game day, so I'd want more from them on the current situation, but worth keeping this vote in mind going forward.

Murmur Twin posted:

I feel like if Sal were town, the natural assumption here would be that KB is scum trying to drive a mislynch on him. The fact that he bypasses that train of thought and goes with "I'm not sure why" followed by talking about how being cased made him feel (instead of being suspicious of it) screams scum mindset to me.

##vote Sal

This vote comes before Nat20 makes his case in defense of Sal, so I get what MMT is saying here but it assumes absolute logic on Sal's part, and not the emotional play that he usually displays.

Rhjamiz posted:

ugh. loving phones.

##vote b-minus1


First one on b-

b-minus1 posted:

You seem awfully interested in the identity of the other person that visited pod. I wonder why

Here’s a read. You’re scum. ##vote kb

b- very much wants KB dead, and will continue this refrain for the rest of the day.

SalTheBard posted:

I'm going to go with B- here since it seems like my only avenue of getting it of this day alive and ##vote kb

I'm not going to change it unless something damming comes out.

If sal flips scum, we can look back at this and probably surmise that the scum team thinks KB is an SK at this moment. Had it come out yet that he was deathproof on Day 2?


Natural 20 posted:

##vote b-minus

Main reason is that there was really no need to lie about the role itself early on.


Minus notes this, stating that there would be much crazier roles than his own. So why the need for the cloak and dagger around what his role was to begin with? It's not that strong relative to what we've seen from others.

There's a chance that I'm going to be rused because of an Infinitum moment from Minus, but I just don't buy that town Minus would care to lie about his role.

Another early vote on b-.

Yami Fenrir posted:

After collecting my thoughts, the people I'd be willing to vote today would be B- and Sal, in that order.

For B-, the extreme wishy-washyness around their watch targets was rather suspicious. We now know that it was due to a gambit - or at least, so b- claims.

However, their entire dialog with KB just reeks even beyond the gambit. First off, why would a townie NOT be interested in a claimed watcher stating they saw the people who visited a dead person?


This post is just so :confused: that I don't understand. B- gets a scumread on KB, because KB is... pushing a watcher (as far as he knows) that refuses to claim the visiting people to someone who was killed that night? Arriving on a scum read on a person because of that seems like serious mental gymnastics.

Considering how 'certain' B- seems to be that KB is scum, especially with posts like this sniping at tiny 'weak points':


It really feels to me that B- started with a "KB is scum" narrative and went backwards from there. I seriously do not grasp how someone can see KB as scum for asking for the people that visited a dead guy, unless they WANT KB to be scum.

##vote b-minus1

---

As for Sal:

I don't like how quickly they just gave up. I already said some things on Sal earlier, but I'm not really happy how that particular dialog evolved. It took Sal FOREVER to come up with something resembling scum reads, plus there's the whole contradiction regarding him reading KB as scum, that KB pointed out earlier as well.


This comment comes over to me as deflective, in a similar vein as B- own "Look at KB not voting me!" post. It's also strangely aggressive of a post considering how mopey and deflated the rest of his post history seemed in comparison, in my opinion.

Yami gets with the popular crowd but doesn't break for Sal, and instead goes for b-.

SalTheBard posted:

##vote B-

I'll see you guys in 10 1/2 hours

probably a survival vote.

peramene posted:

:circlefap:


with it being asiina and with asiina's hatred of fun tomfoolery, I lean towards this being a hard & fast rule, but tbqh, I feel like... if someone were to specifically ask for 3p... they would get it. maybe with some risk of being shoved into town or scum wincon but like... this is about as cocoa for kookiepuffs as she gets, so maybe

oh, and hey, we do indeed have one claimed 3p so liek


the only way this makes sense is if, say, someone selected a serial killer or horror movie villain as their flavour character, then described the role themselves as 'serial killer', which YET AGAIN motherfucker such a good idea for fun and fiascos

speaking of fiascos, ##unvote


why


that sounds like a hypothetical epicmafia style scum setup and in a game where literally everybody has to be some kind of peculiar power role, if I were asiina (and thank lord & lady i'm not) and I were to say, HMMM, give in to the urge to fudge the teams. . . this would be a reasonable pick, right? ignoring the 3p implications of an sk an all

I don't understand why this happened.

SalTheBard posted:

Scum team I'm imploring you to just go ahead and hammer me.

##vote Sal

Making it easier for you. I'm just so Goddamn mother loving frustrated right now with town.


chaoslord posted:

“I’ve been playing a super scummy game, why does anyone think I’m not town?” - Sal, probably

##vote sal

I pointed this one out before. Given b-'s flip, I'm not a fan of this vote

Kitiara posted:

Alright. I just woke up, got to work and caught up.

We have to remember that it's only D2 and we don't really have *that* much to go on. So we have to set for whomever we think is most scummy. I have suspicions on Rhj, Jimmy and yammi (in that order). But I don't really have anything solid on those last 3; whereas, I really feel like there's something to B- and Sal.

Basically due to the arguments underlined by other people before me.

I am suspicious of Sal because he claimed that he didn't go creative on his role. But then his role is the opposite of un-creative (if you want to see un-creative, wait until you see my flip). The role happened to be too convenient with both his brother and the killer dying on the same day. And there was that pera/pod thing that with the masonry information seems a bit coincidental. Two coincidences in a row and add in some scummy posting/neglecting on calling out people = a vote for D2.

##vote Sal

As same as with Day 1, if B- is lying we would be able to catch him a lot easier than if Sal is lying. Additionally, if B- isn't lying then his role a lot more useful than Sal's.

With that said, Sal's defensiveness reminds me of how he was behaving in Gradschool when Jimmy (my scum bro on that game) was screwing up and I'm still carrying guilt about it. So I would be okay with lynching B- first and then find a way of egging Sal's house if he's lying.

Same with this one.

SalTheBard posted:

You are like the 2nd or 3rd person that's said "Would vote B-" but then votes for me. If you are ok with killing B- first commit to B-

Here is how you commit:

I think B- it's scum and I would beer ok voting B-

##vote B-

Survival vote

SalTheBard posted:

B- if you aren't voting me, I won't vote you.

##vote kb

If you let KB live today and he's scum and scum wins you have nobody to blame but yourselves. See you at deadline.

Again, curious.

jimmydalad posted:

If I do need to choose between the two, I feel like Sal is playing an emotional town game. Though some of the stuff is raising my eyebrows, I feel like I want to trust his emotional-ness, which I know is slightly hilarious coming from the person that did the Grad School Mafia thing.

I feel more comfortable ##vote b-

It's unfortunate jimmy left because I think this was the pivotal vote.

King Burgundy posted:

Hmmm.

Ok, this is convincing. I'll give it a day for more things to come to light.

##vote Bminus

Here is where the levee breaks and votes rain down upon b-

Murmur Twin posted:

Actually I kinda agree.

##vote b-minus

Another one

Kitiara posted:

This is fair, but like I said I was mostly basing it on the fact that B- had a. a more useful role to town and b. a role we could verify.

I do feel like Sal has put in more effort in declaring his townie-ness than B-, who has kind of given up. I also gave B- a pass D1 due to his role (which didn't clear him today) and he also refuses to give any reads on scum. So:

##vote B-

Final Hammer.

Gonna post my thoughts in a different post.

chaoslord
Jan 28, 2009

Nature Abhors A Vacuum


Rhjamiz posted:

I want a roll call of everyone who thinks Sal is today's best lynch option

I’ll say with diplo, the other game I was in that just ended, and the really long out deadline in this game, I have been more skimming than anything so far this day, but he is my top pick for scum. Need to go read Yami at some point, that’ll probably be tomorrow morning.

Max
Nov 30, 2002

I see what KB is saying about the way b- and Sal were interacting with each other, and I'd be a lot happier to believe that this was a scum v scum vote if b- and Sal were going for each other's jugular. That they both jumped on and off of each other and pushed for KB at one point gives me pause. Either Sal has such a super awesome role that b- simply could not let that one go, or this day has been exactly what b- wanted to happen with him saying that he won't vote Sal, and we're just playing right into his hands.

I don't know that you could claim scum were controlling that vote the other day, because reading it is unclear who is going to be the lunch between sal and b-. The situation feels too chaotic and reactive to imagine scum trying to really control that vote.

At this point, it will be really useful to flip Sal because it can inform some of the early votes that came in on b-. Where they alternative votes for someone people found more scummy (Let's be real, b-'s claim and scrambling around that topic was bad.) or were they votes meant to push things off of Sal because he is actually scum and has a super awesome power.

I think there is no way in high heaven that KB is scum with b-. Someone will have to remind me when exactly his death proof claim came out.

Other things to tldr and look back on if we flip Sal today: pera's unvote and disappearing act, Yami voting for pera, Clord and Kit's vote on Sal around the mid point of the votes before things became clear that it was definitely going to be b-.

Apologies for any mistakes, it was hard to sort through the spoiler text.

Max
Nov 30, 2002

Murmur Twin posted:

What are your opinions of my other two main arguments? Which again is

1 - he accidentally said something that scum knew, but town didn’t (that I was mason’ed with pera). If that’s not a scumslip it’s a hell of a coincidence

2 - read his d2 and d3 content about his role. Do you think a town Sal has he wherewithal to lie about his role (complete with “I’m so mad I have no vig, which is why I’m checked out a bit”) on d2 despite being so frustrated he’s self-voting?

Outside of how b- and sal interacted, this is the most cogent argument for a scum Sal that I've seen.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib

Max posted:

this day has been exactly what b- wanted to happen with him saying that he won't vote Sal, and we're just playing right into his hands.

Max
Nov 30, 2002

Hey Sal, I know this is frustrating and I've been in your position before, but I'm trying to re-engage with you here. If you have nothing else to add that is fine too.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
I'm agreeing your point

Max
Nov 30, 2002

Yes I am more talking about the general tone of today.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
I've typed about 4 posts and delete them. I'm loving pissed at this game I really am. I'm not pissed at anyone person in particular because the scum team decided it's my turn to get got and they are pushing me. It's the name of the game. When I see the scum doc I will evaluate how I think I played and how others played.

I know my biggest problem is I play with my heart and not my head. I make mistakes (not double checking who MMT declared mason partner was) and that gives people scum reads. It's whatever at this point. So yeah thank you for the great game. It was really fun getting to create a role, next time I'm just going to create unlimited random dayvigs and go ham.

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
I'm leaving my vote on KB. When town wakes the gently caress up, I hope you join me.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Max posted:

KB, a lot of your posting completely and utterly assumes that Sal is flipping scum. What changes, in your mind, if he flips town instead?



For one thing, it would help me think Nat20 is for real town instead of being suspicious that something is wrong with the results. That would be a pretty major change.

It would also make me WAY more suspicious of Bif and Chaos, two people who right now I feel very good about due to sharing my opinion.

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

SalTheBard posted:

I'm leaving my vote on KB. When town wakes the gently caress up, I hope you join me.



So you disagree with Max's analysis?

Max
Nov 30, 2002

Yeah whatever your feelings on KB, I seriously doubt b- is his scum buddy.

King Burgundy posted:

For one thing, it would help me think Nat20 is for real town instead of being suspicious that something is wrong with the results. That would be a pretty major change.

It would also make me WAY more suspicious of Bif and Chaos, two people who right now I feel very good about due to sharing my opinion.

Thanks!

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
Nothing short of Asiina themself coming into this game and posting your role pm would change my mind

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

Rhjamiz posted:

I want a roll call of everyone who thinks Sal is today's best lynch option



I'll comment on this since I've been pushing him.

He's my real, playing mafia vote, my strongest scum read.

But I'm not sure he's the best actual vote, since the result I have to share is probably the better option?

King Burgundy
Sep 17, 2003

I am the Burgundy King,
I can do anything!

SalTheBard posted:

Nothing short of Asiina themself coming into this game and posting your role pm would change my mind



Great, so now you understand how I feel. :)

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SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005

I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!

Fallen Rib
The difference is you and your scumbros airway know my alignment

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