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Truga
May 4, 2014
Lipstick Apathy

Shugojin posted:

So I see Hive Mind leaders are no longer immortal :v:
only if you get the trait bug. someone said creating a new empire instead of editing one you made before 2.2 seems to fix this.

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KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Libluini posted:

Well, poo poo. I put my portraits in custom species classes because otherwise stuff tended to break left and right. And now I either have to put them back or copy that code for my mod and extend it with my custom classes. Joy. :shepface:

Great, isn't it? And it makes inter-compatibility between species mods much more difficult!

I think all of the new script I've looked at so far suffers from at least one of: extreme over-specificity, massive code duplication (every pop strata has to be taught how to eat individually? was there not a simpler solution to this?) or being split over a bunch of different files. I love how much functionality is exposed and how extensible it is, but goddamn if it doesn't seem like it's going to be much more difficult to mod than it needed to be.

Guilliman posted:

2.2 is way more engaging. I find I only manage my pops in the early game, when I have one planet. After I get a second colony it's just fire and forget. I only go back to colonies to if the icon for overcrowding or jobless pops shows up in the right UI.

:same:

e: the performance is really bad, though. I started a 1000 star game, naively, and seconds per tick crept above unity by 2325. Six minutes to the year. What the gently caress.

KOGAHAZAN!! fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Dec 9, 2018

yorkinshire
Apr 28, 2009

In space no one can hear your dope beats.
Where does the Genome-Mapping bonus come from? I can't seem to find the source but it's giving 10% pop-growth speed empire wide.

yorkinshire
Apr 28, 2009

In space no one can hear your dope beats.

yorkinshire posted:

Where does the Genome-Mapping bonus come from? I can't seem to find the source but it's giving 10% pop-growth speed empire wide.

nvm I found it, it was a tech I researched.

Guilliman
Apr 5, 2017

Animal went forth into the future and made worlds in his own image. And it was wild.

Autonomous Monster posted:


e: the performance is really bad, though. I started a 1000 star game, naively, and seconds per tick crept above unity by 2325. Six minutes to the year. What the gently caress.

Same here, along with galaxy view stutter.

LinkesAuge
Sep 7, 2011
The relationship between technology and jobs/the economy is just weird. Shouldn't advanced tech mean that your pops get more efficient instead of just creating more jobs?
It doesn't even make sense on paper, why does an upgraded building suddenly create more jobs if your tech is IMPROVING. Shouldn't it reduce the NEED for additional jobs? I get the idea from a gameplay perspective but it's really backwards from a societal viewpoint.
Atm improved tech means your scientists just figured out how to cram more people into the same office/factory space which is really, really weird for RPing and it also means that a true "utopian" (communist) society isn't on the table. I wish there would be at least two paths for your economy, one which is based around just increasing your work force more and more and one where it's really about efficiency gains, meaning your pops are free to do "nothing".

Serf
May 5, 2011


loving the new update for the most part. its challenging to manage supply chains and i'm taking it slow by claiming lots of territory but staying low on actual colonies.

shared burdens sucks, which is too bad. it should do something that can synergize with utopian abundance rather than try to replace it with a crappier version. hopefully the space communism mod updates with a better version.

also utopian abundance is really good in the new economic system. so long as you can manage the consumer goods requirements, you never have to worry about unemployment, which gives you a lot of leeway in how fast you need to keep up with developing colonies. unemployed pops aren't an issue, so you can wait for 5 free pops before you upgrade an alloy/consumer goods building and you won't gently caress your supply chain on the basic resources side

Kenlon
Jun 27, 2003

Digitus Impudicus
I've been watching the complaints about the new economy with bemusement. It's pretty much a textbook simulation of an industrializing economy, just in space.

You start out producing raw materials, and only raw materials, because that's all you can do efficiently. Don't bother building much in the way of alloy/consumer goods production - maybe one of each on every planet, if you must. Dipping into the market will be a regular thing at this point, both for fleet/starbase construction and topping up your consumer goods stockpile. Because you're going to be focusing on raw materials, you can both use the encourage growth decision and run Nutritional Plentitude, giving you 35% growth speed boost.

Once you've hit the point where you are running out of jobs for your pops, even with all districts built on all colonies (should have three or four colonies at this point, most likely), then you can start to really industrialize and move to trade value for energy production. You should never find yourself falling short on resources, outside of emergencies, and even then you should still have a positive income almost all of the time.

turn off the TV
Aug 4, 2010

moderately annoying
Does anyone know if there have been any ship rebalances with this patch? Last time I played cruisers were pretty much pointless in every way and I'm wondering if they're still not worth using.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Zeron posted:

I love the patch and the new economy, but yeah I have to agree with a lot of the stuff said so far.

1. With everything requiring so much more micromanagement, tying auto-control/building to sectors that you can't control is ridiculous. It'd be a lot better as a per planet option and possibly just keep sectors as a separate thing entirely. Or get rid of them, point is I shouldn't be limited in what I want to control/handle by something that I can't control.

2. I still miss the message settings from the previous games. If I could get a message whenever a planets pop level matches the amount of jobs available it'd cut down a lot of the tedium, or having actually useful popups regarding unemployment, crime, etc instead of having to wade through diplomacy messages I don't care about. Sitting there staring at the outliner isn't fun or good for my eyes. Same for planet decisions, I want to know when they expire (actually I'd be happier if those were all toggles with upkeep in the first place).

3. Agreed that the pacing needs work, the advanced buildings being available so much earlier than you can reasonably get resources for them etc. The early game is a constant chain of building districts/buildings as needed and you don't really get the resources/freedom to do fun/specialized stuff with the system until around midgame anyway. It definitely feels like you just have far too little leeway on resources, which I mean it's fun and engaging still but it feels like every empire start will be 100% identical. Especially with pop growth being as slow as it is and robots being so slow as well. I've played several games with every pop growth modifier possible, and it feels more like it brings it up to "almost reasonable" rather than that I'm actually gaining an advantage or that the pops are growing fast.

4. Alloys are pretty crazy yeah. This is in part due to the tightrope balancing, it's really hard to find a good time to build/expand alloy factories when you already have to juggle food/minerals/energy/consumer goods/amenities/housing.

5. The pop demotion time limit is very appropriate, but I don't know if it actually makes for good gameplay. I'm all for Vicky 3, but on the level this game operates on it's just counter intuitive and annoying.

6. Interface needs improvement in general. Get rid of Empire Systems/Empire colonies in the top bar, if you're already fighting for space then those two don't make any sense to include. What do they give you that you need on a glance that Empire Size and Empire Population don't? For that matter, make the Empire Population tooltip be about pops per planet. If I want to know the breakdown per species i'd just use the demographics tab. Actually you could do pop per planet and jobs per planet, there's plenty of room for both in that tooltip.

re: 2) definitely having a way of knowing that I need to build something for more jobs before someone is unemployed would be better. In general, I find that I click around a lot to look at pops/jobs/housing, and there doesn't seem to be anything
summarizing that. The sector/planet view just has production, which I really don't see the use of, especially now planets are very specialized (in 2.1 I would generally try to make things mostly self-sufficient)

Re: 6) I feel like rather than some of that stuff, I would want to see motes/rare gases/crystals broken down, since midgame I have to keep hovering over the summary (which is kinda useless on its own) to manage my access to those.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

I do enjoy how fiddly and micro-heavy 2.2 is and how all the moving parts of your empire fit together but I can see how it would he unwieldy and inconvenient for others. I have a friend who reverted to 2.1 and another who is trying to wrap their heads around it because they were expecting more 4X gameplay rather than (simplified) grand strategy econ sim mechanics.

Agreed on how the balance needs another pass, though. The pacing of tech and resource access feels pretty clunky and alloy costs punish mistakes intensely.

The Bramble
Mar 16, 2004

Zeron posted:

I love the patch and the new economy, but yeah I have to agree with a lot of the stuff said so far.

1. With everything requiring so much more micromanagement, tying auto-control/building to sectors that you can't control is ridiculous. It'd be a lot better as a per planet option and possibly just keep sectors as a separate thing entirely. Or get rid of them, point is I shouldn't be limited in what I want to control/handle by something that I can't control.

Agreed on loving the patch, and this point in particular. A per-planet option to have the airport take over with a certain priority would be great. It doesn't make sense that it's a sector based thing, and frankly feels like a waste of the sector concept, since "automate or not" is the only interesting decision you make on that screen.

I'd love to see sectors get some love in some future politics-themed DLC, alongside factions and federations. I don't want to go full ck2, but giving sectors political personality and making governor's feel more special and interesting would be a fun direction to go.

Beer4TheBeerGod
Aug 23, 2004
Exciting Lemon
It looks like the mass produced trait does impact build speed, but it's only shown in the number and not the modifiers.

Black Griffon
Mar 12, 2005

Now, in the quantum moment before the closure, when all become one. One moment left. One point of space and time.

I know who you are. You are destiny.


In the five or six games I've started I've been relatively lucky in terms of alloys. If my own productions base hasn't been up to scratch, I've produced absurd amounts of minerals or food, letting me take care of things on the market. Also consumer goods is an excellent export, which I guess makes sense.

However, I can see myself being way hosed under less fortuitous circumstances. Alloys are still quite expensive, and if you're underproducing and not putting out the raw production to pay for them, you might just be in trouble. Some balancing is probably needed.

Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Dec 9, 2018

mst4k
Apr 18, 2003

budlitemolaram

Im confused - upgrading my ships costs special resources that I may or may not have?

Anno
May 10, 2017

I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

Maybe something bad happens later, but at least early on it’s pretty cool to befriend the subterranean civilization. You get a job that provides amenities/trade that scales in number with the planets population and, if I’m reading the tooltip correctly, doesn’t require any housing. Plus the events that go off every so often seem nice - got 500 minerals once.

I’d pay in a heartbeat for a story pack containing a bunch of neat interactive planet events like that one with unique jobs/choices/interactions.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

karma_coma posted:

Im confused - upgrading my ships costs special resources that I may or may not have?

why are you confused

Xerxes17
Feb 17, 2011

karma_coma posted:

Im confused - upgrading my ships costs special resources that I may or may not have?

Certain components do. AFAIK, rails and lasers are only alloys while all the other weapon types need something special or at least their upgraded versions do.

Baronjutter
Dec 31, 2007

"Tiny Trains"

Your name list still changes if you take cybernetic... how has this not been fixed? It's been over a year?

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion


Any component above T3 will require special resources - crystals for energy weapons, gasses for shields, motes for explosive and ballistic weapons. The only require it to build, not to upkeep.

Strike Craft and PD notably do not require them. Once the completely nonsensical alloy costs are addressed, this may actually make carriers viable again (if they fix fighters.)

Strobe
Jun 30, 2014
GW BRAINWORMS CREW
If you guys are running into actual bugs please remember to submit bug reports. Complaining about things here Wiz and LordMune might see it and bring it up, but it's not guaranteed when this topic is averaging 400 posts a day.

really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

Strobe posted:

If you guys are running into actual bugs please remember to submit bug reports. Complaining about things here Wiz and LordMune might see it and bring it up, but it's not guaranteed when this topic is averaging 400 posts a day.

nonsense! Surely my posts are being blown up on a large monitor in the paradox conference rooms as they all strive to understand what "lol sectors more like sexors xd" means and how they can improve my experience.

Retro42
Jun 27, 2011


So, I think sectors are starting to make a bit of sense. I've got one operating fairly autonomous right now. All I had to do was give it some resources to start a stockpile and set it's preferences. Now it builds and expands the planet as it goes. BUT, only as there are unemployed pop it seems. It won't build stuff it doesn't need. Which I guess makes sense considering the upkeep costs. Catch is I was expecting to see it start churning out building and such from the get go. With jobs vs sectors the AI handling things very different it seems.

Anno
May 10, 2017

I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

I still think it’d be best to just remove all manual pop-level control (jobs and resettlement) after building the system to handle it properly. Having those micro choices in the game just incentivizes people to use them even if they aren’t fun and aren’t necessary. I realize it is right now for robots, but those just need fixed anyway.

TalonDemonKing
May 4, 2011

Yeah, finally getting into playing rogue servitors and I have to say I hate how energy producing robots are the lowest of the low in the totem pole, and anytime anything opens up (even in its own strata), it tries to move up into that slot.

Also did the servitor morale bonus just completely vanish?

Anno
May 10, 2017

I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

TalonDemonKing posted:

Also did the servitor morale bonus just completely vanish?

Yeah. That was there to make up for having fairly useless pops taking up your limited number of tiles. It’d be fun to see it come back in a more limited role since it was a nice themey thing.

Phobeste
Apr 9, 2006

never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man
The one weird thing I’m seeing is that your economy can fluctuate incredibly wildly sometimes and it’s not clear why - like jumping from +40 to -40 production in something. It’s probably a building completed but it light he pops switching jobs? I’d love to see more traceability, like a graph of inputs and outputs that has callouts for buildings coming online or offline and pops switching jobs.

Also the summary for advanced/strategix resources is really bad because it sums the incomes so it can say +2 when actually you have +5 gas and have had -1 crystals for months and you only freaking notice when the pop up for being completely out happens and your consumer goods aren’t getting made anymore god DAMMIT

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

Phobeste posted:

The one weird thing I’m seeing is that your economy can fluctuate incredibly wildly sometimes and it’s not clear why - like jumping from +40 to -40 production in something. It’s probably a building completed but it light he pops switching jobs? I’d love to see more traceability, like a graph of inputs and outputs that has callouts for buildings coming online or offline and pops switching jobs.

Also the summary for advanced/strategix resources is really bad because it sums the incomes so it can say +2 when actually you have +5 gas and have had -1 crystals for months and you only freaking notice when the pop up for being completely out happens and your consumer goods aren’t getting made anymore god DAMMIT

The fluctuation you're seeing is probably you building a big fancy factory that uses minerals, and then having miners move up the strata. So you have like a 12+ mineral swing per job switched, because they went from producing 6 to consuming 6. The solution here is usually to try to avoid flooding higher strata jobs onto your raw resource production worlds.

mst4k
Apr 18, 2003

budlitemolaram

Gort posted:

why are you confused

I think because to build a new one doesn’t require spec resources but upgrading to does. I might be totally wrong here (I probably am).

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."
What is the expected amount of time to progress through the tech tree? I feel like progress through it seems glacial sometimes, especially engineering tech (society hums along thanks to the bonus research, but there's also a ton of special projects that use it too). It feels very difficult to focus on science.

Mayor Dave
Feb 20, 2009

Bernie the Snow Clown

karma_coma posted:

Im confused - upgrading my ships costs special resources that I may or may not have?

Yeah and it takes forever, like decades for larger fleets

Retro42
Jun 27, 2011


ZypherIM posted:

The fluctuation you're seeing is probably you building a big fancy factory that uses minerals, and then having miners move up the strata. So you have like a 12+ mineral swing per job switched, because they went from producing 6 to consuming 6. The solution here is usually to try to avoid flooding higher strata jobs onto your raw resource production worlds.

Yeah, flooding a planet with high end jobs does have some interesting consequences now. Starting to only expand when I have some unemployed pops or at the least a heavy surplus income to offset has helped me a lot.

Learning it the hard way due to finding a VERY nice research planet I colonized only to find out every research job it pulls means basic resources the rest of my small empire has to supply instead.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Guilliman posted:

Same here, along with galaxy view stutter.

So uh, I opened up the task manager just for giggles.



We've got fairly evenly distributed load on three cores, and one heavily loaded one that's the bottleneck. So far so whatever. Though, note: this is paused. That's a lot of load for idle!

The interesting bit, the drop I've circled, is when I entered observer mode. Not paused, unpaused, whatever. Typed "observer" into the console. It's got to be UI stuff.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

OddObserver posted:

Re: 6) I feel like rather than some of that stuff, I would want to see motes/rare gases/crystals broken down, since midgame I have to keep hovering over the summary (which is kinda useless on its own) to manage my access to those.

Yeah I really don't know why these are compressed, there's so much room in the top bar.

winterwerefox
Apr 23, 2010

The next movie better not make me shave anything :(

canepazzo posted:

Wasn't it changed in 2.2 that you can use a race you have a migration treaty with to colonize planets in your empire? Got a migration treaty with a Tundra preference fungus, but my main (continental) race is the only option to colonize.

Go to your shipyard and build the colony ship manually. Doing it from the planet you want to colonize didn't seem to work.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

Retro42 posted:

Yeah, flooding a planet with high end jobs does have some interesting consequences now. Starting to only expand when I have some unemployed pops or at the least a heavy surplus income to offset has helped me a lot.

Learning it the hard way due to finding a VERY nice research planet I colonized only to find out every research job it pulls means basic resources the rest of my small empire has to supply instead.

If you accidentally flood yourself with jobs (some of the building upgrades or stuff like civics can add 5 jobs, or some upgrade options add like 1 job per city district) you can manually turn off job slots in the expanded worker menu. So you can change your supplied artisan slots from 5 to say 2, then re-enable some as you get more dudes. Generally if you're building on pace with your expansion this shouldn't be needed though (look at your rate of growth, you should get 2 pops every 4-5 years, so that is about how often you should need to check in on a given planet).

Boot and Rally
Apr 21, 2006

8===D
Nap Ghost
I'm confused about how to manage worker pops. How do I move a pop from Technician to Farming? I can reduce the priority of technician but I have no control over where that pop goes.

E: I see it now, you have to very carefully manage which jobs are available. The Dev Diary said they wanted to reduce the micromanaging aspect of the population, but this seems to have turned one click into 10+ clicks. Weird. Maybe I'm not supposed to worry about it at all and let my resource production be inefficient?

Boot and Rally fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Dec 9, 2018

Mayor Dave
Feb 20, 2009

Bernie the Snow Clown
Haha started a new game and when one of the caravans came through they dropped off some pops and boy howdy I think they've got every negative trait in existence

Strobe
Jun 30, 2014
GW BRAINWORMS CREW
If there was a way to just turn off the Caravaneers I'd probably be pretty happy.

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ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."

Boot and Rally posted:

I'm confused about how to manage worker pops. How do I move a pop from Technician to Farming? I can reduce the priority of technician but I have no control over where that pop goes.

E: I see it now, you have to very carefully manage which jobs are available. The Dev Diary said they wanted to reduce the micromanaging aspect of the population, but this seems to have turned one click into 10+ clicks. Weird. Maybe I'm not supposed to worry about it at all and let my resource production be inefficient?

You don't worry about it. You should only have a couple open job slots at a time anyways, so the 'inefficient' production should be very minimal. Like you build a farming district, that opens 2 farming jobs. If you have a poo poo-ton of miners you might have one or even two move over to try to balance out the production a bit, but otherwise those jobs will fill as your dudes grow.

What you don't want to do is to build a bunch of farm districts at once. Remember that you're paying upkeep on every district you build, so you're literally pissing money away and micromanaging extra for no reason.


If you flood yourself with jobs higher up on the strata (specialist, ruler) then pops will want to go work those jobs. Why toil in the mines when you could be a doctor? So you can tank your resource production if you provide too many jobs that get people to move up. Also it takes a while for pops to move back down, they'd rather be unemployed and looking for work in another nice job.



Mayor Dave posted:

Haha started a new game and when one of the caravans came through they dropped off some pops and boy howdy I think they've got every negative trait in existence

They should have tomb world preference I think though? That gives them 60% on every planet, which means you can use them to snap up a lot of planets for a not terrible penalty. And eventually gene modding should let you fix them right up.

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