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Joe Slowboat posted:or a betrayal of their vengeance upon Rat-kind? It's this it's always this. Chose the most stubborn and bullheaded interpretation of a dwarf grudge and that is what it will always be.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:42
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What if we teach the new rats that they need to get the Dwarves' cities back for Dwarfkind and deliver them with an apology song?
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Dec 14, 2018 18:46
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Joe Slowboat posted:What if we teach the new rats that they need to get the Dwarves' cities back for Dwarfkind and deliver them with an apology song? Where will the rats live?
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Dec 14, 2018 18:46
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Joe Slowboat posted:I know someone mentioned the Dwarves would blow a gasket at any attempt to redeem the Skaven, so I was wondering: how much are their Grudges understood on racial, as opposed to civilizational, national, or personal lines? It would depend on interpretation of the exact wording of the Grudges involved and the dwarves doing the interpretation.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:47
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Mors Rattus posted:It would depend on interpretation of the exact wording of the Grudges involved and the dwarves doing the interpretation. (Ask your gm)
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Dec 14, 2018 18:50
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Also I don't know a huge amount about him but the dwarves' current high king is named Thorgrimm Grudgebearer, a guy who is carried around in a ceremonial throne so he can always be checking stuff off on the giant grudge book. Take of that what you will.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:50
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Thorgrim is viewed as an energetic and somewhat radical high king because he's all about hunting people down and Avenging grudges right at their stupid faces instead of digging in at the karak and grumbling about it, which tells you a lot of what you need to know about the dwarfs.
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Dec 14, 2018 18:54
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wiegieman posted:Thorgrim is viewed as an energetic and somewhat radical high king because he's all about hunting people down and Avenging grudges right at their stupid faces instead of digging in at the karak and grumbling about it, which tells you a lot of what you need to know about the dwarfs. He is also more reasonable than most and is willing to take the high road. Which is pretty much he is willing to accept payment instead of blood for most grudges and explain the nature of them to people.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:He is also more reasonable than most and is willing to take the high road. Which is pretty much he is willing to accept payment instead of blood for most grudges and explain the nature of them to people. And he's very into the dwarfs' most ingenious technology, and is starting to lure back brilliant inventors exiled to the Empire. Dwarfs may have invented the gun, but a lot still think firearms are suspiciously new-fangled and untrustworthy. Basically, think an entire civilization of Baby Boomers.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:17
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I feel that viewing the Dwarfs as "ALWAYS GRUDGING ALL THE TIME" strays into the excesses of 40k. And if the dawi really were that petty, they'd have cut ties with the Empire for accepting help from the Helfs. So we have examples of them not going full rear end in a top hat at every opportunity.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:32
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Basically, like most actually good cultural traits, while dwarf grudges are a defining part of their culture, the way any individual dwarf or group of dwarves acts upon them and the degree of priority they give to them is going to vary, because they're (usually) written as people and not strawmen. Usually.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:39
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Also associating with a target of a grudge does not seem to be a grudge worthy thing. Also the grudge against the high elves was already crossed off. It's why they largely just jeer and insult them instead of attacking.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:55
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Also, typically one of the negative things about dwarf grudges is that the dwarfs rarely tell people when they decide they've got a grudge against them. A lot of cases of dwarf grudges are caused by a non-dwarf not realizing a dwarf would take offense to something, and the dwarf not saying anything because you know what you did don't play dumb with me. Another big thing about Thorim Grudgebearer is that he's much more diplomatic than previous kings, and willing to work with the Empire, elves, and other organizations to recognize and settle grudges.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:56
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Yeah the Dwarfs kicked the crap out of the Helves during the War of Vengeance, it's why the Phoenix crown is one of the high king's trophies.
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Dec 14, 2018 19:56
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I think another part of it is also outsiders just not being familiar with dwarf culture and realizing how uptight and serious they are about matters of honor. It's never detailed anywhere, but I like to think that the dwarfs also have an intense and elaborate gift culture - perhaps translating to an economy based on barter. I could see the dwarfs making that work really well given their ingrained sense of honor, fairness, and honesty, but that sadly doesn't jive with the traditional dwarf obsession with gold and greed. I think fun could be had dialing that back down in favor of the notion that currency is a human invention the dwarfs still largely struggle to get their head around, while internally the dwarfen economy is based firmly on barter of goods and services - and short-changing a dwarf is a grudge.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:02
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Volo's Guide to Monsters: Goblinoids: The Conquering Host Part 3 Previous Entry Hobgoblins  War is the lifeblood of hobgoblins. Glory in it inspires them, it's horrors don't feature in their nightmares. They consider cowardice more horrible then dying, because they carry their living acts into the afterlife, so a hero in death becomes a hero eternal. Young Hobgoblins start soldering once they can walk and heed the muster call once they can wield a weapon. Every Hobgoblin Legion in thier society stands ready for war. Brutal Civility Hobgoblins hold themselves to high standards of military honor. They have a long history of shared traditions, recorded and retold to keep it fresh for new generations. When they are not waging war, they build, farm and practice both martial and arcane arts. Their civil society does not conceal the brutality that Hobgoblins practice on each other and perfect on the other races. Punishments for breaking their laws are swift and merciless. Beauty is something they only associate with warfare and conflict. The iron grip their philosophy holds blinds them to other races accomplishments. Hobgoblins have little appreciation or patience for art. They leave little space for joy or leisure in their lives, and thus have no reserves of faith to call on when in peril. BLOODY BLUE NOSES posted:Hobgoblins are sometimes born with bright red or blue noses. This attribute is thought to be a sign of potency and potential. Blue- and red-nosed hobgoblins receive preferential treatment, and as a result they occupy most of the leadership positions in hobgoblin society. The noses of all hobgoblins become more colorful when they are enraged or excited, much the way that humans’ cheeks can flush with emotion. Implacable Gods Along with being the most devout to Maglubiyet of the goblinoids, hobgoblins revere two gods unique to their race. The survivors of the parthenon devastated by Maglubiyet so long ago the hobgoblins don't even remember the names of the fallen. Nomog-Geaya is the greater one and more frequently honored. He is a stoic, cold blooded tyrant and hobgoblins believe he expects the same behavior from them. Bargrivyek a god of duty, unity, and discipline, and he is thought to be pleased by displays of those principles. In hobgoblin stories Bargrivyek serves as Nomog-Geaya’s second in command. Though Nomog-Gaeya would prefer someone more like himself Bargrivyek was all he was left with. While both are beholden to Maglubiyet, the Mighty One allows them to retain influence over the hobgoblins because their views are inline with his own. Hobgoblins don't build temples to their gods in order to avoid displeasing Maglubiyet, but the few priests they have tend to small shrines and recount the legends of their gods. Nomog-Gaeya's priests are also responsible for martial training as well as instruction in strategy and battlefield tactics. Bargrivyek’s priests serve as a police force, making judgments about honor, mediating disputes, and otherwise enforcing discipline. Rank, Status, and Title As in any strict military hierarchy, each hobgoblin in a legion has a rank. The ranks as well as titles that most often apply to them are as follows. -1st rank: Warlord -2nd rank: General -3rd rank: Captain -4th rank: Fatal Axe -5th rank: Spear -6th rank: Fist -7th rank: Soldier A legion is divided into units called banners, each made of a group of interrelated families. "Members of a banner live, work, and fight together, and each banner has a separate status within the legion that is reflected in the power of its officers. For instance, the captains of the highest-ranking banners can expect their orders to be followed by the captains of any banners of lower rank." Rank and responsibility aren’t necessarily equal from one legion to another or even between banners in the same legion. A phalanx of foot soldiers led by a captain in one legion might be two hundred strong, while in another such a force numbers just twenty. One banner might have four warriors mounted on worgs led by a fist, while a fist in another banner of the same legion might lead ten mounted warriors. If any rank doesn’t serve a purpose in the legion, the warlord eliminates it from the hierarchy to maximize efficiency. Honor Bound, By Glory Crowned Rising in rank comes from gaining glory. But for the achievement to count the hobgoblin must follow their races standards of honor. Ways to gain glory. Discovery of a great resource (such as finding a new vein of iron or a powerful magic item), a fine performance (writing and performing a great ballad about the legion), designing a great defense or monument, and many others. The best way however is in battle. In theory, the fortunes of war can elevate the lowest banner in the legion to the highest status. In practice, warlords give their own banners the best opportunities to earn glory. And portion out other responsibilities and opportunities to other banners as politics dictate. Each hobgoblin legion has a distinct code of honor and law, but all follow some general precepts that are at the heart of the hobgoblin honor system. Follow Orders.Carrying out orders without question is critical on the battlefield, and hobgoblins do this in peaceful times as well to maintain stability in their society. Hobgoblins don't even question orders that will lead to their deaths if the act will bring glory to the banner or the legion. Honor the Gods. Hobgoblins give regular recognition to their gods. Idols, standards or flags with the symbols of Nomog-Geaya always get a bow or salute except in emergencies. Bargrivyek’s peacemakers are deffered to regardless of rank or banner status. And of course, Maglubiyet’s call to conquest is always answered. Suffer nor Give Insult. Hobgoblins believe that any insult demands a response. "Suitably (and somewhat ironically), the outward politeness and civility that they demonstrate among each other enables them to avoid conflicts in daily life." This same attitude and courtesy is extended to any other races the hobgoblins deal with normally to the surprise of outsiders. When such respect isn’t reciprocated, though, relations can swiftly deteriorate. Reward Glorious Action. Hobgoblins never deny advancement to banners or individuals that have earned higher rankings. If a banner obtains great glory but is nearly destroyed, the remainder are welcomed into another banner, taking their banner’s name and colors along with them, and assuming places of leadership in the group. Uphold the Legion. Hobgoblins care more about the survival of their own legion then others of their kind. Two legions might battle each other for territory, resources, or power, or out of simple pride. Feuds can then continue over generations in a cycle of retribution. Each legion has a list of grievances against any others it knows, and legions meeting for the first time view each other with hostility. "Only a truly great warlord can force legions to work together as an army if Maglubiyet has not called forth a host." Volo posted:Hobgoblins are relentless soldiers that cleave to rigid tactics and orders. I fear their less-predictable scouts and spies more. Iron Shadows Hobgoblins developed an unarmed martial arts style called the Path of the Iron Shadow. The practitioners are referred to as Iron shadows and serve as hobgoblin societies secret police and spies. The Iron shadows recruit from all ranks of hobgoblin society. They answer only to the priests of Maglubiyet, and utilize their talents for stealth, disguise, and unarmed combat to squash potential insurrections and treachery before an uprising can flourish. They also gain the ability to command shadow magic to conceal their true nature, create distracting illusions, and walk from one shadow to the next. When they operate in the open, they wear masks that resemble devils. As befits their role in society, they receive proper deference from all other hobgoblins they encounter. Academy of Devastation Hobgoblins know the value the role of arcane magic in warfare. Most other cultures view magic as an individual pursuit that only a select few can attempt. Hobgoblins practice mass indoctrination and testing to try and identify every potential spellcaster in their ranks. The Academy of Devastation is a Hobgoblin Spellcasting institution. Members are sent abroad to test young hobgoblin. Those who show potential are enrolled in the academy, brought to a hidden school, and subjected to a rigorous regimen of drills, exercises, and study. In the academy’s view, every young student is a potential new devastator, destined to be forged into a weapon of war. Hobgoblin devastators have little knowledge of or use for spells that have no use on the battlefield. They are taught destructive spells and learn the fundamentals of evocation magic. The destruction they cause is worthy of as many accolades as the ruin wrought by traditional warriors. "Luckily for their enemies, devastators seldom employ sophisticated tactics, functioning essentially as a mobile artillery battery. They can bring tremendous force to bear, but rarely display the versatility and inventiveness of spellcasting elves and humans." Some become accomplished tacticians, and it isn’t uncommon for such an individual to serve as the warlord of a legion. Hobgoblin Lairs When they are not on the move, Hobgoblins like to have a stable lifestyle were raise new generations and prepare them for battle. If few enemies exist nearby and the hobgoblins in a legion have room to spread out, the members of each banner might live in a separate location, effectively its own settlement, with worg riders and messenger ravens passing communications between the sites. In lands dominated by other humanoids, hobgoblins will settle for taking up residence in an old dungeon or ruin where they can hide their numbers and stay hidden. Such an arrangement isn’t desirable, because space is usually at a premium. Permanent Visitors. If a hobgoblin legion wants to settle down, it generally looks for a out-of-the-way area with suitable resources or can be improved to suit the hobgoblins’ needs. Land for farming and grazing is desirable, as is access to lumber, stone, or metal ore. If the hobgoblins a suitable place, they build non-portable facilities such as forges and sawmills, marking their intention to stay either until all the resources are gone or until Maglubiyet calls them off to war. "If the hobgoblins are interested in doing business with the outside world, they might erect a trading post on the fringe of their territory where other people can come to exchange goods and coin." Who Goes There? Hobgoblin lairs resemble military bases. (Which they pretty much are) Always well guarded, either by lone senties in trees or full garrisons of troops in towers. As space permits, large areas are dedicated for use as training facilities for the practice of warfare. Monuments, typically statues and pillars, are erected around these areas to remind the legion of past glories. Every legion’s headquarters has a command center where the warlord meets with banner leaders and others of high rank. "Inside the complex or somewhere near it is the Way to Glory — a road, river, tunnel, or valley on either side of which the honored dead are interred, each burial site complete with a description of the banner, rank, and glories of its occupant." The Troop quarters are plain but sufficient, as are the stables and dens to hold the legion’s animals. Legions that have need of one also set aside space for a library, which can double as a school and training facility for spellcasters. If a hobgoblin lair has a prison, it’s usually a small one — miscreants are kept for only a short time before facing the hobgoblins’ harsh justice.  Next time: Goblinoid War Hosts
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Dec 14, 2018 20:16
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OvermanXAN posted:Basically, like most actually good cultural traits, while dwarf grudges are a defining part of their culture, the way any individual dwarf or group of dwarves acts upon them and the degree of priority they give to them is going to vary, because they're (usually) written as people and not strawmen. Usually. Yeah, I think one reason we've generally had fewer dwarves show up in our games is because they often come off as more 'written in' by their background culture than other characters, and we should really ignore that more often. E: Though the other reasons are A: My group tends to really like the material for humans and humans make up the majority of our parties and B: We've developed a fondness for elves based on things you can imply from the Career table, namely that you're actually quite likely to get elf Pit Fighters and stuff from what the table suggests is a surprisingly large elven underclass and criminal class. Playing poor, down on their luck elves who fall in with humans and freebooters is really fun and gives them a good reason to be a little more accommodating.
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Dec 14, 2018 20:46
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Regarding Dwarf gift culture, I think that fits their avaricious reputation well. See, any Dwarven treasure isn't just interchangeable loot. Every sword, every axe, every helmet has a history and a lineage, and possession of them are a part of Dwarven identity. Dwarves only part with their works for vast sums because it's always selling an heirloom, but at the same time they recognize the value of gold for funding their work (and also, gold is a useful metal for jewelry and art). This also means that traditionally they're kind of hypocrites about looting - the crown of the High King of the Elves is theirs now, it has deep history connected to Grudges and vengeance. ...This does imply that the correct way to get Dwarves to be ok with a new Skaven society being built up under some human cities would be to have the Dwarves get a tax of raw materials from the new Skaven. I mean, imposing retributive reparations on potential fascists for losing a war has never gone wrong, right??? Or on the other hand it might help to just have the New-Skaven abandon the Horned Rat and loudly take the position that Dwarves are extremely cool and better engineers than they are. I don't know how much Dwarven pride can blunt Dwarven Grudges, culturally.
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Dec 15, 2018 01:32
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Relevant: Rats were apparently domesticated into the modern fancy rat...partly by the efforts of ratcatchers. Who wanted to sell them as pets/bait.
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Dec 15, 2018 01:44
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The most effective way to distract the Dwarves from the Skaven would be to tell them the truth about the Lizardmen.
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Dec 15, 2018 01:48
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The Lone Badger posted:The most effective way to distract the Dwarves from the Skaven would be to tell them the truth about the Lizardmen. That goes a bit beyond distract and into outright maliciousness towards the Dwarves. Lizardmen are hardcore.
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Dec 15, 2018 03:00
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OvermanXAN posted:That goes a bit beyond distract and into outright maliciousness towards the Dwarves. Lizardmen are hardcore. Yeah Lord Mazdamundi will decide to finish his war with continental drift and take out the last of the Dwarf holds. Like seriously don't pick a fight with a dude who considers plate tectonics to be his nemesis, one he can match on even terms. The Grudge would be like infinitely grudge-y too, because not only did Mazdamundi personally break Dwarf civilization, that was neither the POINT of what he did nor was he not aware there were things living in those mountains. They were just utterly beneath him giving a poo poo what happened to them. So it was neither malice nor ignorance, but just straight contempt for the idea that their lives or deaths could matter at all. Feinne fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 03:04
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Night10194 posted:Relevant: Rats were apparently domesticated into the modern fancy rat...partly by the efforts of ratcatchers. Who wanted to sell them as pets/bait. the modern what
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Dec 15, 2018 04:15
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wait is the name for domesticated rats 'fancy rat'? That's adorable
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Dec 15, 2018 04:16
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sexpig by night posted:wait is the name for domesticated rats 'fancy rat'? That's adorable Indeed it is.
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Dec 15, 2018 04:24
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sexpig by night posted:wait is the name for domesticated rats 'fancy rat'? That's adorable Fancy rats and dumbos! They're wonderful! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unZLSftXO-g Look at their fearsome ways.
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Dec 15, 2018 04:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:Indeed it is. Hell, Pet Island's got a dedicated thread for em.
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Dec 15, 2018 05:01
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Volo's Guide to Monsters posted:Hobgoblin devastators have little knowledge of or use for spells that have no use on the battlefield. They are taught destructive spells and learn the fundamentals of evocation magic. The destruction they cause is worthy of as many accolades as the ruin wrought by traditional warriors. "Luckily for their enemies, devastators seldom employ sophisticated tactics, functioning essentially as a mobile artillery battery. They can bring tremendous force to bear, but rarely display the versatility and inventiveness of spellcasting elves and humans." Some become accomplished tacticians, and it isn’t uncommon for such an individual to serve as the warlord of a legion. Given how broad even many harmless spells can be in fantasy military applications... it reads like the text is implying that the hobgoblin mages only ever learn blasty damage spells and nothing else. Or is that rather their specialty school as opposed to being exclusive in use?
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Dec 15, 2018 05:26
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Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e: Children of the Horned Rat Plague Priest Cannot Cast Plague Well, I can't sleep, so here come some goddamn rats! There's a reason the last attempted review of this book stopped about when it got to the bits with mechanics in 'em, because I'm not gonna lie. The mechanical work in Children of the Horned Rat is downright shoddy. You might've guessed that from things like 'never actually discusses what wielding an extra weapon in your tail means mechanically' or 'forgot to actually put in the rules for shooting warp lightning out of your magical bladed lightning shooter, instead only printing rules for how to enhance a base process not actually in the book', but those aren't exceptions. The book likes to randomly introduce entirely new mechanics, too; some of the spells are going to work outside the bounds of normal spell design, suddenly and for little reason. For that reason, I'm going to be a little more thorough than usual in talking about Rat Magic. Rat Magic is very powerful, once you get past their Petty Lore. Petty Rat Magic is absolutely worthless, and an Apprentice Grey Seer would kill for...well, actually a lot of things, but very much for the spell list a Collegiate Apprentice gets. The hilarious part is an Apprentice Grey Seer actually gets Mag 2 and some Lesser Magic (and if they want, can point out the very useful Shadowblood attack spell from Night's Dark Masters is technically Lesser Magic and not actually necromancy; if they do this it gives them a great magic missile but a GM should feel free to disallow this since that spell was clearly for vampires) but their Petty magic is just awful. They get a spell that induces penalties to disease saves (eh, disease is less useful for players than for enemies, generally, except for ones that cause immediate debuffs), a spell that does Damage 1 or lights like a torch, a spell that marks a messenger, a spell that very minorly debuffs an enemy (-5%! And they get a save!), a spell that gives them a non-Skaven rat buddy (cute), and a spell that gives either +5% to their next check (eh) or steals the FAVOR OF THE HORNED RAT (We'll talk about this mechanic later; it's not good). Compare to a Collegiate Apprentice: Damage 3, solid attack spell, illusion magic, a sleep spell, and the ability to make people drop stuff? You can have and solve adventures with human Petty magic. Skaven Petty Magic is the price you pay for how batshit powerful you get after it. Rat Magic is also Dark Magic, which means it causes Side Effects like Necromancy and Chaos. These kick in if you get doubles on a miscast's effects die, and they loving hurt. These are permanent debuffs to your PC, all negative. Remember, these are things like '-d10 Strength or Toughness' or a permanent epileptic disorder that makes you make a WP test or have a seizure that reduces you to a half action a round and -10% to everything for d10 Rounds in every fight. Side Effects hurt like hell and are honestly overly punitive, given the high chances someone throwing around Dark Magic (for the extra unkept casting die) already causes serious Miscasts. These are in turn supposed to balance how insanely powerful Warp Magic is. Plague and Stealth are the other two Skaven Lores, being You see, Grey Seers start with Mag 1, and then get +1 Mag in Career 1, +2 in 2, +3 in 3 for 4 Mag at Seerlord. The other rats do not get that 1 base mag. Plague Priest is meant to be like Initiate to Priest to Anointed Priest (though it is misprinted and Plague Priest only gives +1 Mag, this would be easy to spot and change even without errata) and get up to Mag 2 at 3rd career, and their casting ability tops out there. Sorcerer, the Ninja wizard, gets +2 Mag right away and the ability to go into Master Wizard and Wizard Lord (obviously without being a Collegiate Wizard!) if they want to master Ninja Secrets. This is fine. The problem is, Lore of Plague has a lot of high CN spells. Very few of its spells are easy to cast with Mag 2. Some are nearly impossible, requiring using the Skaven rule where they can eat a Warpstone token for +3 to a casting roll, an Ingredient, AND Channeling to even have a tiny chance to cast. Take the Plague spell, for instance, which you might expect a Plague Priest to be able to use. It's CN 26. Even eating a token (which makes miscasts 1 step worse), using Dark Magic for an extra unkept die, using an Ingredient for +3, and Channeling only gives him a chance to have it go off if he gets an 18+ on 3d10k2. This is not bloody likely. And he cannot get better at magic on his track. This is caused partly by the fact that the Lore of the Warp actually gets Plague, too, and so it has to be balanced against Mag 3 second tier Seers running around being able to plonk it down at will. The Plague Priest is clearly meant to function more like a Divine caster while the Seers are Arcane, but they share a few spells among their lists. So they can't do the normal thing where Priest magic tops out at CN 20 (ToS broke that rule like ONCE in the whole book) and the Plague Priest also doesn't get a High Priest equivalent to give them Mag 3 anyway. It's just a mess. Also Plague isn't even that good since it just gives people Green Pox (immediate effect is only -5% to everything), which then spreads virulently through anyone they come into melee range with if the second person fails a Tough save (if they make it, they become immune to this casting). It's dangerous, but it's a plot device for spreading plagues; in an actual fight -5% is not going to stop your enemies. Not for a CN 26 spell. I think the only spell the Plague Priest can actually cast easily is a CN 6 spell that makes infected blankets (They give people a dwarf pox that gives -10 Agi and Fel and makes them spend a half action a round itching unless they make a WP save, no chance of dying of it). So now that we've been over some structural issues, let's get to some of the standouts among Skaven Wizbiz. One of the big features of Skaven magic is an absolute hatred for the Damage Reduction system. One of their popular attack spells, known to both Plague and Warp called Pestilent Breath, hits a cone-shaped template in front of the caster for CN 16 and a full action. Everyone struck makes a Tough-10 Save. Anyone who fails takes 5-14 damage, straight up, do not reduce. Now, I think a lot of this is a function of the people designing this not thinking about what bypassing DR actually means. Yes, they get a chance to avoid the damage. But effectively you're adding the target's DR to the base damage of the spell. Say I use that on a human knight in full plate and good health, TB 4. He fails his 30% or so save and now effectively takes a Damage 13 hit. And remember, kids, this hits an AoE. Compare this to Breathe Fire from Fire. That's a Damage 8 hit in a cone for CN 25, which is hard for even a Mag 3 character and not really 'doable' at the drop of a hat until Wizard Lord. A 2nd Tier Skaven Seer has 3 Mag and thus better than 50-50 odds to throw out Pestilent Breath without Channeling OR Ingredients OR Warpstone Token. What can a Seer do for CN 25, for reference? They can cast You're loving Dead, or Flensing Ruin. For CN 25, Full Action, a Seer (who remember, can use the +3 Ingredient AND Warpstone and if he can spare an extra turn, Channel to get the difficulty to 16, so even a Tier 2 Seer can use this if he eats 1 coin) throws down 'You take 6-15 damage, no save, no resistance, every turn for Mag turns'. This spell will kill an Exalted Lord of Chaos or a Vampire Lord in one cast. The end boss tier enemies. This spell will take a huge chunk out of a loving Dragon or even make a Greater Demon balk. You get a couple Seers together to toss this down, and a Bloodthirster is a dead man. To illustrate, let's take our good friend that we rolled up in ToC, Taurial the Bright, the flying crystal elf Slaaneshi Lord whose entire schtick was DR. She would, in her Chaos Armor, have 9 TB and 5 AV. That's 14 DR, enough to stop your average conscript with a musket completely if they can't Fury, do not pass go, do not collect dead Chaos Lord. This spell effectively hits that character for Damage 19. That's the damage of an Imperial Great Cannon. And then hits her for it again. And again. One casting will kill Taurial. Okay, so that's not impressive, though; her whole thing was DR, right? She had poor Wounds because of it. Let's take Wallach Harkon from Night's Dark Masters, who is presented as the guy who thinks he's in charge of the Blood Dragons and a campaign End Boss type. One of the most dangerous personal warriors in the setting. He's only DR 13 (8 TB, 5 Armor) but he's got 28 Wounds. This spell will still take 18 of those off him if it rolls a 1 every time and has good odds of killing him because he's taking Damage 18 hits every turn. And remember, a 2nd Tier Grey Seer can just do this. The ingredient is just a tanned scrap of sentient skin. Warpstone Tokens are just coins. Also, there's no ruling on if this spell stops if you kill the caster or something. Any PC who gets this spell cast on them is probably dead. And again, this is NOT hard for the Seer to do. I harp on this so because ignoring the entire loving Damage Reduction system is a bad idea! Hilariously? Warp Lightning is actually a bad spell. It's alright, I guess; Damage 5 magic missile, CN 11, Half Action, good range. But you also take a Damage 1 Hit yourself for every 1 on casting it, and it's actually harder to cast than the equivalent Lightning Bolt from Heavens (which does the exact same damage for CN 10, no self-damage). Warp STORM, on the other hand, is 'only' CN 18 (so 50-50 odds of casting it with no further bonuses at Mag 3) and throws down a big AoE of Damage 5, with Damage 3 hits hitting you for each 1 you roll. It's risky, but it's also 7 CN less than the Heavens equivalent. Skaven also get a lot of utility magic; Stealth focuses on it. They get spells like Skitterleap (an actual teleport, for CN 8), Stickypaws (sticky paws let you climb easily, CN 12), Pelt of the Assassin (CN 16 for +30 to Concealment when holding still), and Swiftscamper. Swiftscamper introduces a new mechanic out of nowhere: It lasts an extra minute for each point you beat its 14 CN by, and gives you +Mag to movement while in effect. Nowhere else in the system does beating a CN by more give you any bonuses. Why does it do this? I dunno. I doubt the designers know, either. You can also make people float so well they can run on water (CN 6) or throw down a lightly damaging moving super-smoke bomb (CN 20, Stealth). Seers can throw out a Damage 2 Missile that stuns on Tough+10 (CN 7). CN 14 summons a Vermintide of rats that do Damage 1 to everyone in a large area and keep scampering around and repeating this for Mag rounds. I'm not even going into every spell! Skaven Magic can handle almost any situation, and their actual combat spells are some of the most powerful in the game thanks to the designers not thinking about what some of the DR ignoring stuff means. I think only Ice Witches can even come close. Maybe a Bright Wizard who can reliably pull off Fiery Blast at Wizard Lord. And the key point is Skaven CNs don't even get that high! They all hover around levels where a normal Seer can start whipping this poo poo out 8' o clock Day 1 after getting his 'Actually a Seer and not a lovely Apprentice' certificate. Skaven magic is, simply put, overtuned even though it was always a strength of theirs on the Tabletop. It also combines with how powerful of a caster the Seer is to make it even moreso, which we'll get to when we get to rat PCs. Next we get a small collection of magic items, all very dangerous for non-Skaven because they're made of pure wizard cocaine. The Amulet of the Horned One is a sacred token that gives 1 Wound of regen per hour it's worn. An ancient Seer used it to escape the consequences of his actions and rapidly recover from the knives he regularly found in his back, until the Horned Rat though it would be really funny to take it away and give it to someone else. He then slipped and fell onto 8 different apprentices' knives. Clumsy day. Nice enough, but minor. The current owner is our good buddy Thanquol the Grey Seer, because the Horned Rat thinks he's loving hilarious and wants him to continue to narrowly survive the consequences of his actions. We don't get much on him but the name-drop here. The Blade of Corruption is a Hand Weapon that does an extra Damage 3 hit every time it injures someone, if they fail a Tough-10 save. If wielded by a non-Skaven, it inflicts Tough-10 every time they use it, or takes a permanent -d10 off their Toughness, killing them at 0. So don't use it if you're not a rat, got it. It's an evil sword forged by Pestilens and cooled in the blood of the first Slaan they managed to drag down and ram a rusty knife into in Lustria. Killing frogs is why they managed to make the lizards mad enough to invent a god. The Cloak of Shadows is an exquisite ninja cape forged out of the hair of the victims of ninjas. It grants a special power where anyone trying to shoot the ninja wearing it takes a -10 WP test or else they have to pick a different target. Really nice. The Dwarf Slayer is, I believe, Queek's signature weapon. It's a Hand Weapon that does +3 damage against dwarves. Simple enough. Eats your brain if you're not a Skaven, though, inflicting 1 IP on WP-10 every time you touch it until you gain 6 IP, at which point you become a serial killer whose targets are short and have beards. You just can't resist trying to kill dwarves. Queek probably wants this back. The Fellblade is the legendary Sword of Killing loving Everything, Including The Guy Wielding It that the Council gave to that Nehekaran king and pointed at Nagash. It is one of the mightiest weapons in the setting, and on the TT game, was a loving mobile homing missile (that also probably killed the guy wielding it) that hit like a cannon mounted on a rat. Here it's...actually kind of sad. About on par with a Master Rune of Skalf Blackhammer from RoS. It does SB+1 Impact and gives +20 Str. Is that seriously all? For the Fellblade? This thing is like a walking Plot Device Sword. Every round you use it, you make a Tough-20 save or take 4-13 Wounds, no reduction. Non-Skaven take 6-15 if they fail a Tough-30. So it kills the hell out of you and while yeah, +3 damage and Impact is pretty good, it's not that great. Foul Pendants are handed out to anyone who the Council of Thirteen really likes. They're little rat-skull emblems that have powerful protective magic, giving a whopping +2 AV that stacks with any armor worn, no upper limit to AV (unlike most previous +AV items). That is a huge goddamn bonus. And they have multiple of these. This is treated like something of a trinket. This is equivalent, again, to a couple really powerful Dwarf Rune items! Finally, we get Thanquol's stick, the Staff of the Horned One. It sucks. It gives you one Lesser Magic of your choice when you get it, which you lose if you lose it. Supposedly, this was the first magic item the first Grey Seer ever made. He clearly needed more practice, but it's better than nothing. I wonder if it counts as magical if you whack someone with it? I'd probably say it does. Thanquol got it when he murdered his first mentor, as is the way of the rat. Not sure how your PCs will get it, maybe pick it up after he drops it running away with another exploded Boneripper some time? Next Up: Build Your Own Non-Functioning Deathtrap
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Dec 15, 2018 06:37
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Libertad! posted:Given how broad even many harmless spells can be in fantasy military applications... it reads like the text is implying that the hobgoblin mages only ever learn blasty damage spells and nothing else. Or is that rather their specialty school as opposed to being exclusive in use? They pretty much entirely learn blasty spells. They can learn others, but vastly prefer the blasty stuff. They also perform those spells better than pretty much everyone else. Which I will elaborate on when we get to the Hobgoblin Devastator Stat block later in the book.
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Dec 15, 2018 07:05
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Joe Slowboat posted:Or on the other hand it might help to just have the New-Skaven abandon the Horned Rat and loudly take the position that Dwarves are extremely cool and better engineers than they are. I don't know how much Dwarven pride can blunt Dwarven Grudges, culturally. If there were Skaven that got along with dwarves, it feels like their dynamic would be like a hypercharged version of the human/dwarven relationship. "We like you kids, you've got spunk and potential, but there's a very good reason we don't strap giant glowing shards of warpstone to everything the instant its out of the forge." "...oh, because after we did it, it exploded, destroyed the forge, brought down the ceiling, and killed ten apprentices?" "No. Because of Tradition. Now, back in my day..."
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Dec 15, 2018 09:17
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Night10194 posted:An ancient Seer used it to escape the consequences of his actions and rapidly recover from the knives he regularly found in his back, until the Horned Rat though it would be really funny to take it away and give it to someone else. He then slipped and fell onto 8 different apprentices' knives. Clumsy day. Nice enough, but minor. The current owner is our good buddy Thanquol the Grey Seer, because the Horned Rat thinks he's loving hilarious and wants him to continue to narrowly survive the consequences of his actions. We don't get much on him but the name-drop here. I think this might actually be a very important point. The Horned Rat doesn't actually want the Skaven to win. He wants them to entertain him. Which occasionally involves winning if they're sufficiently clever about it, but more often involves failing in a suitably hilarious way.
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Dec 15, 2018 09:46
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The Lone Badger posted:I think this might actually be a very important point. The Horned Rat doesn't actually want the Skaven to win. He wants them to entertain him. Which occasionally involves winning if they're sufficiently clever about it, but more often involves failing in a suitably hilarious way. Turns out the Horned Rat is actually an aspect of Ranald. He saw what potential the Skaven had to be immensely dangerous assholes, and got to them before Chaos could really get its claws in, then decided to play the ultimate prank on them.
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Dec 15, 2018 10:37
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So Hobgoblins are basically Cossacks?
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Dec 15, 2018 11:05
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The Lone Badger posted:I think this might actually be a very important point. The Horned Rat doesn't actually want the Skaven to win. He wants them to entertain him. Which occasionally involves winning if they're sufficiently clever about it, but more often involves failing in a suitably hilarious way. Yes. The Horned Rat thinks his Strong Rat Sons are hilarious and loves watching them get up to antics. He is also quite fond of the fascism thing they've got going (apparently) because it causes antics and constant backstabbing and explosions. There's a good reason Thanquol is his chosen rat. A scampering, squealing failure who has truly incredible cosmic power but misaims it or self-sabotages or overreaches and ends up running away again with Boneripper number X on fire is his vision for his people.
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Dec 15, 2018 13:49
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Feinne posted:Mega-Appearance: This definitely feels like something written before the advent of streaming video, and now it feels like one of the most powerful adders you could put on Mega-Appearance. Become the ultimate (ugh) "youtube influencer".
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Dec 15, 2018 13:55
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Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e: Children of the Horned Rat Do not forget to build world ending devices https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyCDLW7n53A This should probably be in your head for this update. Because it's time to discuss how to build useless crap that explodes and wastes huge amounts of Warpstone. So you want to be a Warlock Engineer. The idea appeals to you. It should! Warlock Engineers are cool! You have to get a to a third tier Career (Warlock Engineer) and get the Warlock Engineering talent first. After you do this, you can start building your own customized technosorcerous devices with a complex subsystem for doing so. This is the place where 'we never really established the value of a Warpstone Token' is going to get to be a really big problem. They do finally mention that '4 Warpstone Tokens can be refined from one pound of raw Warpstone', so that gives us a little bit of an idea of how much Warpstone is in a Token, at least. Only Skaven can use the items built by these rules; anyone else gets 1-2 mutations from just touching your Quick-Kill Device or whatever you called it if they fail Tough-10. Skaven Devices tend to explode, as has been made clear in the past. Every device you build with this system has a Malfunction chance, created by adding the Malfunction chances of every component of the device together, plus d10% for every time you fail an Engineering test while making the device. You pay the full Warpstone cost of the device when you start work, and while you can give up and try again at any point to undo the Engineering failure penalties for shoddy design or overcomplicated gubbins, you have to start making the device again from scratch. Devices also cost 1/4 their original building cost every time they're activated. You need to succeed an Engineering test for every 3 Warpstone Tokens the device would cost to build, and each Engineering test also costs you another Warpstone Token, so failures also cost you more Warpstone. Now, the first use for this ability is building Characteristic enhancing cybernetics and exoskeletons. These can give up to +3d10 to a Characteristic, and make the Engineering test to build a device that includes them -20% more difficult. If you build a cybernetic replacement, it causes Insanity (3 for d10, 5 for 2d10, 8 for 3d10) and costs you -1d10 Toughness for losing Ratbits. No word on if this can replace a lost limb from the critical hit system. Also no word on if you have to pay Warpstone every time you use that limb or body part; the next bits are really unclearly written. If the device is an augmentation, it doesn't cause Insanity or Toughness loss. You can activate the device as a Free Action when using a test that uses the stat it boosts. I suspect the idea is supposed to be that the cybernetics have to be used but don't cost additional Warpstone, while the Augmentations can be turned on and off, but again, the book is phenomenally unclear. Errata also pops in to say activating any stat or skill booster device gives its bonus for d10 Rounds per activation, because they didn't actually include durations in the main book. At least cybernetic Replacements only have a 1% base Malfunction, right? Stat boost junk is 5 Warpstone tokens per d10 it grants, and the Augmentations have way higher explosion chances (2, 3 and 6% for the 3 power levels) but cost less (3, 6, and 12). Augmentations also just straight give +10, +20, or +30. No d10s. This leads me to believe the Cybernetics are meant to be permanent buffs (which is kind of a bad idea for its own reasons, not least of which is rolling for your arm to explode every time you make a Strength test adds rolls) but again, no real clarity on if that also means using the limb costs Warpstone. You can also halve the malfunction chance for an augmentation by having it impose twice its bonus as a penalty to another stat, but if this would reduce a subject's stat to 0, the device crushes their head or otherwise makes them explode into rat-bits. Skill Devices are similar. Note you can stack several skills or stats onto one device; you use the hardest difficulty among the things you're trying to build when you do so. Skill enhancers are generally cheap and easy, with reasonable malfunction chances and costs; I suspect this is the primary use for these rules that would actually get used. A little device that lets you trade 2 Warpstone tokens for +30 to a skill with a small chance of exploding for d10 Rounds is actually useful, after all. You can also use these devices to give a character a skill they don't have, and even do so at a high bonus; doing this is not a good idea, because a +30 to an Advanced Skill you don't have is like 32 Warpstone Tokens to build (so 8 per use) and +16% Malfunction. Now we don't know how valuable a Token is, precisely, but given a ratling gun costs like 12 I'd assume 8 is fairly significant. At the same time, being able to build like, a thought-siphon that pours, say, 'Academic Knowledge: Science' into the brain of a confused rat and might make his head explode is pretty hilarious so I'm going to say Skryre gets style points there. Building a device to give situational bonuses (like, say, magic goggles that grant a big bonus to Sight based Perception tests) halves the cost and makes them much less likely to explode. You can also make a device halve its malfunction chance by giving a penalty to another skill while active. So, say, you could make a Vibrating Hyper-Scamper Quick-Dodge Harness that makes a rat vibrate on frequencies that make him hard to see and hit (bonus to Dodge) but also make a loud whirring (-2xDodge Bonus to Stealth), that kind of thing. Skill Devices are quite useful and cheap enough to be worthwhile. Honestly, so are stat enhancers, they're just unclearly written and complicated. You can also make things grant Talents a character doesn't have, at -20% to engineer. These start to get into the point where they Malfunction significant amounts of the time; the vast majority of Talents add 4 or 5% Malfunction and there's no way to offset it like with Stats and Skills. Though you can also grant Public Speaking for a 2% Malfunction and 2 Warpstone Token cost (1 per activation), which is hilarious because now you've built a tiny megaphone for your rat powered by wizard cocaine. Once again, no word in the actual book on the duration of these buffs; had to go to Errata to see they have the same d10 round duration as skills. Straight granting Talents is straightforward and potentially very useful, but I wouldn't try to combine too many into one device or you're going to destroy people. Little rat, no! Do not try to give someone Natural Weapons, Frenzy, Frightening and Strike Mighty at the same time with the Huge-Maker 5000 Serum Injector! Frenzy is still useless and that's 21 Tokens and 21% base Malfunction as it is! How does a SERUM INJECTOR explode!? What has science done!? Also, you can add a talent called 'Skaven Construct' to a person that turns them into your robot slave for 10 Tokens; it becomes permanent but there's a 50% chance they become an unreliable and mostly useless robot instead of a helpful robot. No word on how you can do this to the unwilling; do you just have to slip the Robo-Maker 900 over their neck while they're asleep or do they have to go on an operating table or what? You can also build a spellcasting device that casts spells! This is at -30% to Engineering tests and is the hardest thing Warlock Engineers do. Every spell you program into the device adds to cost and malfunction, and the device functions as a Caster of X power level, with the malfunction and cost going up as you go from 1 to 4. Interestingly, these devices have a limited repertoire of spells available, and a bunch of the spells are Chaos magic, like Dark Hand of Destruction (the weapon summon that gives you a Damage 7 AP magic hand blade with +10 to hit. You can have a beam-saber!) and Veil of Corruption (inflicts mutation). I'm not sure why you'd build a device to cast Warp Lightning when you can just use your Warp Blade to do it without malfunction chances or Warpstone cost, but you can also build a better backpack to cast Warp Storm, which is nice. Your magic backpack cannot be set to any less than full power, and still inflicts Miscasts just like a normal spellcaster. If you wish to make other spells available to your rat technowizard, do it at the cost of 1/2 the CN in Tokens and 1/4 the CN in Malfunction. A Caster level 4 Backpack is 20 tokens (so 5 per use) and 10% Malfunction, but a level 4 wizard you can build yourself is kind of impressive. Finally, we get to building and kitting out guns. Everything to this point has been clunky and unclear, but you can kinda see where it'd be useful. Get ready for that to end! Weapons are easy to build, at +0 difficulty. You can only work on missile weapons and guns; no building yourself a Skaven chainsword. Again, you've already got an SB+2 (potentially) Warp Blade that gives you the ability to shoot technolightning, Skryre rat. Be content. You can either upgrade an existing gun, or build your own from scratch. Upgrading a gun can range from reasonable to batshit insane. Say you want to build a Ratling Gun that isn't an embarrassment by giving it +2 damage and Impact. This would cost you 30 Tokens (10 for adding a quality, 20 for +2 Damage), 15% Malfunction, a ton of Engineering tests, and make the weapon cost 8 Tokens per shot (round up, after all). Say you want to build the ultimate sniper cannon. +3 Damage, +Impact would run you 40 Tokens, 20% Malfunction, 13 Engineering tests, and get you a Damage 8 Impact AP Jezzail that costs the entire cost of a new Jezzail (and 2 1/2 pounds of Warpstone) every shot. Just adding on something like Impact to your Jezzail isn't crazy and might be worthwhile. You can also add Range, but for every 2/4 Yards (added to Short and Long range) it costs you 5 Tokens and 2 Malfunction, so meh. The real problem comes when you try to build your own gun. First, for every point of base damage, you double your cost and malfunction, starting at 4 cost, 2 malfunction at Damage 1. Then you get a weird trait called 'number of hits'. What does this mean? Is this how many times the weapon hits someone each time you hit? Do you get multiple attacks per attack? I don't know, they never specify. 1 Hit costs nothing, 2 Costs 8 Tokens, 4 Malfunction, double it up each step until you reach 32 Tokens and 16 Malfunction at 4. You can also make the weapon fire in an AoE, with single target costing nothing, Cone Template costing 10/5, Small Template costing 10/5, Large Template costing 20/10. You have to pay for every single 2/4 yards of range as if adding Range to an existing weapon, too, so even getting the range of a pistol is 20/8. You also pay for the Reload rate of your weapon, at 20/10 for Half Action and halving the cost and malfunction for each step past as you go to Full, 2 Full, 3 Full, 4 Full at 1/1. The weapon's proficiency is decided by the GM after you finish building it. The Hits thing seriously never gets explained. You might notice that while you can theoretically build hyper-cannons with this, doing so makes a weapon that absolutely will explode and will also bankrupt you to both build and fire. Having to pay for every single quality, step, etc of the weapon adds up so quickly that it's never worth it to build your own ridiculous gun. Also, any modified Gun becomes Experimental. If it was Experimental before, it jams on 90+ attack rolls and explodes on 97+. That's in addition to Malfunction, which you have no way to reduce. Malfunctions don't necessarily destroy your item. They roll on a table with the results 'Works, but +1 to future Malfunction chance', 'Sets you on fire, Agi test not to be on fire, put it out within d5 rounds or it's destroyed, +d5% Malfunction', 'Works, +d5% Malfunction in the future', 'Doesn't Work', 'Doesn't Work and costs 2xWarpstone Tokens (What happens if you only had enough to power it once on-hand? No answer)', 'Doesn't work, +d10% Malfunction', 'Hits you for Damage 3, destroyed', 'Hits you and everyone next to you for Damage 4, destroyed', and 'Hits you and everyone within 6 yards for Damage 5, destroyed'. So 30% chance to lose the item permanently every Malfunction, and almost everything else permanently makes it more unreliable with no way to reduce that. Maybe don't trust the cybernetic limbs. The whole system is unclear, fiddly, and relies a lot on a huge monetary cost to limit abuse, while we still don't really know the value of Skaven money. Some of it is definitely fairly useful; giving yourself skill boosts and stuff is helpful. And letting weapon building get truly out of hand would've been much worse than making it too limited; +1 Damage in Warhammer is actually a fairly big deal, after all. The gear system really isn't made to accommodate lots of custom-built weapons. It's just a shame they couldn't find a good way to balance building your own ridiculous ratguns. The whole section also really needed a rewrite or two for clarity, especially on the matter of cybernetics. All in all, you'll mostly use Warlock Engineering to build buff items so you can run around in a powered exoskeleton while you shoot lightning out of your beam-halberd, which is reason enough to play a Warlock Engineer. Next Time: Be The Rat
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Dec 15, 2018 15:18
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I’m pretty sure Ikit breaks all the machine rules with his death arm flamethrower.
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Dec 15, 2018 15:51
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Well, yes. But that's because building any kind of usable weapon breaks them. Ironically, building flamethrowers is actually safer because you've got the Cone Template, you don't need to spend on Range. Though you're still paying huge sums for any kind of usable base damage. Damage 3 alone is 16 Tokens (so 4 Tokens a shot) and Malfunction 8. For a Damage 3 weapon. E: I should also have mentioned they have an entire section on naming your device and coming up with its ridiculous fluff, encouraging players to be as over the top as possible. Use a modest sprinkling of hyperbolic technobabble plus literalism and words smashed together, and write your device like a coked up ratman with no sense of workplace safety. 'Be creative, and get silly' is the game's advice. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Dec 15, 2018 |
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Dec 15, 2018 15:54
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| # ? Apr 18, 2024 09:54 |
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Is there a term in economics for what a bad idea it is to have whatever your currency is also be an important ingredient/good in your economy as well? I know I'm trying to ascribe anything like sanity to the skaven, but imagining a manratten project where you also had to pay for everything in uranium as well is uh.
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Dec 15, 2018 16:05
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