|
aphid_licker posted:They should name an electronic surveillance ship after him They should name the shitters on the Gerald R Ford for him.
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 20:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 12:45 |
|
|
pfft all you babies still playing around with your mere kids toysquote:the wave of death is a gravitational plane wave exhibiting a strong nonscalar null curvature singularity, which propagates through an initially flat spacetime, progressively destroying the universe,
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 20:53
|
|
|
Fangz posted:pfft all you babies still playing around with your mere kids toys No one tell LeMay
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 20:54
|
|
|
EvilMerlin posted:I think it was more a question about the 8 reactors on board. Not so easy to keep a nuclear ship around once you are done with it. Yep. They preserved the USS Nautilus, but a sub is a simpler process than a CV, and even that was hugely difficult. I can't see them preserving another nuclear ship. Also, aircraft carriers aren't really good as museums. Museums, sadly, must make money in order to stay open. The single biggest variable here is "location." Pampanito does well because it is next to Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco and got a lot of foot traffic. Successful museums rely on this to pay the bills. And the biggest bill is ship maintenance. A museum ship is going to require regular trips to a drydock in order to keep the hull from rusting away. Subs require this ever 5-8 years or so. Bigger ships can go longer, but they can't go indefinitely. And drydocking an aircraft carrier is a HUGE job - towing the ship, paying for space in a shipyard, paying for metal, it adds up to huge sums of money. The only way you can pay for this is if you have a LOT of tourist traffic in a busy location - like USS Intrepid in New York City or Midway in San Diego. Enterprise would have required an enormous sum of money, an amazing location, a way to be different enough from the five existing CV museums to attract tourists - and removal of those reactors. It just wasn't practical. Taerkar posted:Are there any USN garbage trows? 
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 20:54
|
|
|
Again, I'm referring to the WWII Enterprise, CV-6, not Rickover's big beautiful baby CVN-65
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:01
|
|
|
quote:The famines were just one of the tools used by the Soviet Union to control. Yes, absolutely. But that's not genocide. Prioritizing food supply during a starvation so that a troublesome ethnic group with aspirations of independence suffers disproportionately, is, to be sure, a horrid and indefensible act, and is definitely mass murder. EvilMerlin posted:The Soviets WERE trying to destroy the Ukrainians, Mongolians, or just about any other group that had its own distinct culture and language in the name of the Soviet Union. No, though? Once food security was restored in the USSR, there were no concerted attempts to destroy the Ukrainian people by the USSR. The Soviets had no particular desire to destroy the Ukrainians - If they had, they would have continued to murder them by other means once the food supply was secured. They did not. They wanted to starve them into submission and intentionally prioritized food supply during the famine so that it hit the Ukrainians disproportionately. If they wanted to destroy the Ukrainians, why would they stop? The USSR during the Stalin era was one of the most ruthless regimes in living history, probably second only to the Third Reich. There was literally nothing to prevent them from completely wiping them out if they so desired. This is one of those topics that I tend to avoid, because there are few historical events that have been as muddied by politics. Any information we get on the Holodomor today has been so muddied by multiple passes of Soviet, Nazi, Ukrainian nationalist, fascist and capitalist anti-Communist propaganda, cold-war anti-Soviet propaganda, and most recently Russian nationalist propaganda, that it's basically impossible to get a clear picture of what happened. Almost the entire political spectrum has a stake in the Holodomor being one thing or another.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:01
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:Again, I'm referring to the WWII Enterprise, CV-6, not Rickover's big beautiful baby CVN-65 Ah, sorry about that. Yeah, for that matter, Saratoga survived WWII...
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:10
|
|
|
Equalising of Soviet and Nazi crimes is an important part of the modern far-right's attempts to minimise the importance of the Holocaust and to lay the blame for Soviet crimes on the Jews http://defendinghistory.com/red-brown-commissions
ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jan 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:15
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Equivocation of Soviet and Nazi crimes is an important part of the modern far-right's attempts to minimise the importance of the Holocaust and to lay the blame for Soviet crimes on the Jews http://defendinghistory.com/red-brown-commissions Context matters. Someone saying that a murderous dictator is the same as another murderous dictator isn’t minimizing the Holocaust unless there’s other signs that that’s their goal, especially if it’s in reply to tankies trying to lionize Stalin and Mao (which happens startlingly often).
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:21
|
|
|
Cessna posted:Yep. They preserved the USS Nautilus, but a sub is a simpler process than a CV, and even that was hugely difficult. I can't see them preserving another nuclear ship. How does the Alabama survive being stuck in one spot?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:21
|
|
|
Zorak of Michigan posted:What if I made a hydrogen bomb out of anti-plutonium and anti-deuterium? Checkmate, doubters! Trying to make anti-plutonium would be so ridiculously hard you would be bombed to pieces by whoever decided to make bombs out of hydrogen and anti-hydrogen, since that guy would be finished a couple centuries earlier with his bomb Now, taking normal plutonium and anti-hydrogen would work better, but you would still lose by a couple years since that guy would probably notice he could substitute the hydrogen with normal water and call it a day. Stabilizing anti-matter is ludicrously hard, though. I would rather expect us doing something really stupid like building an anti-proton beam cannon first and just set everything around us on fire. Nuclear fire, since all those anti-protons would rip up every atom in side pretty drat fast!  GotLag posted:Not an argument! Depends on how the engineers want to do the important part of mixing the anti-matter with normal matter. If the nuclear chain reaction can spread a high enough amount of anti-matter around before it all reacts with nearby matter, you could end up with some kind of low-key, extra-wide explosion covering so much more ground than a normal nuke it would still be worth it, even if tons of efficiency is lost. (If anti-matter-matter annihilation reactions are faster than nuclear chain reactions though, welp than using a nuke to disperse the anti-matter would just waste everyone's time, as the nuclear explosion will never occur if the the anti-matter just rips out and annihilates all protons from that poor plutonium)
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:31
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Equalising of Soviet and Nazi crimes is an important part of the modern far-right's attempts to minimise the importance of the Holocaust and to lay the blame for Soviet crimes on the Jews http://defendinghistory.com/red-brown-commissions
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:36
|
|
|
Geisladisk posted:No, though? Once food security was restored in the USSR, there were no concerted attempts to destroy the Ukrainian people by the USSR. The Soviets had no particular desire to destroy the Ukrainians - If they had, they would have continued to murder them by other means once the food supply was secured. They did not. They wanted to starve them into submission and intentionally prioritized food supply during the famine so that it hit the Ukrainians disproportionately. Maybe it should be compared to what the Anglos did to the Native Americans (destroying someone's culture and not caring if they die when you do it) instead of the Nazis (killing them all while attempting to museumify their culture)
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:40
|
|
|
GotLag posted:And that's going to continue as long as starvation and repression under communism are unavoidable features of that system but the same things under capitalism are ascribed to individual bad actors or natural causes or simple misfortune.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:41
|
|
|
You don't understand, my particular political philosophy has been on the correct side of every single historical dispute and any counterexamples are either comprised of people not actually following that philosophy, or total fabrications.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:43
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:You don't understand, my particular political philosophy has been on the correct side of every single historical dispute and any counterexamples are either comprised of people not actually following that philosophy, or total fabrications. I had no idea we were so closely aligned ideologically.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:44
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:Soviet communism was a murderous ideology
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:45
|
|
|
Edgar Allen Ho posted:How does the Alabama survive being stuck in one spot? Alabama has a cofferdam:  In which the water level can be lowered:  It is not perfect (there's another 20 or so feet of hull buried by mud that you can't see) but it really helps. The worst destruction takes place at the waterline - the endless water/air/water/air cycle - so being able to sorta-drydock the ship helps a lot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:46
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:I can't get defensive about this because it's too nonsensical to even be wrong. Well, they were. You don't get good guy points for trying to achieve some nice things and then failing super hard
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:51
|
|
|
I have some bad news about...let me check the list...almost every modern state.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:54
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:I still can't get over that they didn't preserve the Big E. If it helps they saved her anchor. It’s one of the many lawn ornaments at the Washington Navy Yard.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:54
|
|
|
Geisladisk posted:No, though? Once food security was restored in the USSR, there were no concerted attempts to destroy the Ukrainian people by the USSR. The Soviets had no particular desire to destroy the Ukrainians - If they had, they would have continued to murder them by other means once the food supply was secured. They did not. They wanted to starve them into submission and intentionally prioritized food supply during the famine so that it hit the Ukrainians disproportionately. Yeah, all of this. Regarding the bolded though, is that true? I've never seen much in the way of evidence that this was done, just that all the food was hoovered up from the steppes and sent to feed the cities and to export markets. This hosed over way way more people than just Ukrainians; the Kazakhs had it far worse, with the death toll approaching 40%. HEY GUNS posted:Maybe it should be compared to what the Anglos did to the Native Americans (destroying someone's culture and not caring if they die when you do it) instead of the Nazis (killing them all while attempting to museumify their culture) The Amerindian genocides are all over the place though, there's plenty of periods where the goal is 'kill them all', along with the 'cultural' genocide part. And just because I don't think it can be repeated enough, it should be noted that cultural genocide of First Nations people was a state sponsored activity in Canada until 1996. PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jan 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 21:59
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
HEY GUNS posted:nobody here is trying to redeem the 1830s in the UK, that's the difference I was thinking more 1940s but yeah
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:05
|
|
|
Tunicate posted:You don't understand, my particular political philosophy has been on the correct side of every single historical dispute and any counterexamples are either comprised of people not actually following that philosophy, or total fabrications. i am intrigued, and wish to follow you on twitter
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:12
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:Soviet communism was a murderous ideology Aren't you literally a monarchist tho?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:12
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:And just because I don't think it can be repeated enough, it should be noted that cultural genocide of First Nations people was a state sponsored activity in Canada until 1996.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:13
|
|
|
big dong wanter posted:Aren't you literally a monarchist tho?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:13
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:I have some bad news about...let me check the list...almost every modern state. edit: Something happening by accident because of a concatenation of circumstances is also different from things like the Soviet famines in the 30s, which were the result of deliberate acts. At no point did "almost every modern state" decide to force everyone onto collective farms for ideological reasons/requisition all their food/kill all the farmers that met certain arbitrary criteria, and then get shocked, SHOCKED that this led to a lack of loving food. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Jan 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:14
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Yeah, all of this. Didn't something similar happen with the great potato famine in Ireland and at least one famine in India?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:17
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:Didn't something similar happen with the great potato famine in Ireland and at least one famine in India? The potato famine was the judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:19
|
|
|
Taerkar posted:Didn't something similar happen with the great potato famine in Ireland and at least one famine in India?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:20
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:It's not the same thing and you know it."What about a time when someone died in the US" does not excuse Stalinism. Like the accident of America's entire history of dealings with the natives. Oopsy
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:20
|
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Regarding the bolded though, is that true? I've never seen much in the way of evidence that this was done, just that all the food was hoovered up from the steppes and sent to feed the cities and to export markets. This hosed over way way more people than just Ukrainians; the Kazakhs had it far worse, with the death toll approaching 40%. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jan 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:21
|
|
|
Like, are yall trying to rehab Stalinism as we speak here or just like defending general ML style communism
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:21
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Like the accident of America's entire history of dealings with the natives. Oopsy
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:22
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:If your ideology can only come out ahead by being compared to your enemies' dealings in the 19th and 18th centuries, maybe it's not the wave of the future that you think it is. Hello there monarchist
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:24
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:Hello there monarchist I'm not advocating the rehabilitation of our 19th century internal imperialism, whereas a number of you are carrying water for Stalin because "bad things happen in almost every modern state." This is a dishonest argument. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jan 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:26
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:You're the one who believes that history has a direction such that things happening later will be better than things happening earlier. I've read enough history to know this isn't what happens. My username is a joke
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:27
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:My username is a joke
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 12:45 |
|
|
PittTheElder posted:Yeah, all of this. Nobody would question that the Wehrmacht hunger plan was genocidal, and it's literally the same policy being applied in the same area to the same group of people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2019 22:30
|
|
