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The dog collar/chain/strap match was basically the same. A way to keep the heel close to the face so he could get beaten up.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:37
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Back in the heyday of the NWA, pretty much every long-term champion also had to be at least decent at working tweener, since sometimes the top guy at the time would be a heel, or the top face was hurt/not ready.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:41
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MrBling posted:The dog collar/chain/strap match was basically the same. A way to keep the heel close to the face so he could get beaten up. Trips/Orton at WM25 should have been a dog collar match.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:41
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Randaconda posted:Trips/Orton at WM25 should have been a dog collar match. It's not a bad idea but Dog Collar matches are very much a southern wrestling thing, and Vince does not like southern wrestling conventions. Plus his whole "It has to be my idea, dammit" approach.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:44
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what's the origins of the four corners strap match? not saying I don't like them or anything they just seem especially old school and hard to explain to someone who doesn't know what's up
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Jan 13, 2019 17:46
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El Gallinero Gros posted:It's not a bad idea but Dog Collar matches are very much a southern wrestling thing, and Vince does not like southern wrestling conventions. True. But gently caress, anything would have been better than we got. Or Legacy should have turned on Orton and done the double turn, since Trips and Steph are like the least sympathetic babyfaces I've ever seen.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:50
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Randaconda posted:True. But gently caress, anything would have been better than we got. I hear you. I also feel like we're overdue for a WWE title match in a steel cage at WM as the main.
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Jan 13, 2019 17:54
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I hear you. I also feel like we're overdue for a WWE title match in a steel cage at WM as the main. Orton was over probably more than he's every been before or since, too, and they pissed it all away. God, that 2004 or 2005 to like 2012 or so period gets worse every time I think about it.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:05
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I hear you. I also feel like we're overdue for a WWE title match in a steel cage at WM as the main. The current steel cage rules ruin it for me. Escape wins are the absolute worst and make both wrestlers act like idiots to explain why they don't just walk out.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:18
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Nehru the Damaja posted:The current steel cage rules ruin it for me. Escape wins are the absolute worst and make both wrestlers act like idiots to explain why they don't just walk out. Yeah, that's fair. I guess when I think of steel cage matches I tend to think of fun ones like Benoit vs Angle, or HHH vs Flair. I don't think about the boring ones, or poorly booked ones.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:24
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Yeah, that's fair. I guess when I think of steel cage matches I tend to think of fun ones like Benoit vs Angle, or HHH vs Flair. I don't think about the boring ones, or poorly booked ones. Hell in a Cell theoretically should solve the cage match problem by having it enclosed with no escape wins, but they are harmed by being restricted to their own PPV and the fact that there’s an implied expectation of breaking through the cell and doing a big spot off the top that telegraphs how they all finish now. They just need to change the rules and make pinfalls and submissions the only way to win a cage match.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:29
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Dacap posted:Hell in a Cell theoretically should solve the cage match problem by having it enclosed with no escape wins, but they are harmed by being restricted to their own PPV and the fact that there’s an implied expectation of breaking through the cell and doing a big spot off the top that telegraphs how they all finish now. Agreed.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:30
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Nehru the Damaja posted:The current steel cage rules ruin it for me. Escape wins are the absolute worst and make both wrestlers act like idiots to explain why they don't just walk out. New York territory title program booking had a formula it always followed and someone winning by leaving a cage instead of by clean pinfall is a part of that formula
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Jan 13, 2019 18:37
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Smoking Crow posted:New York territory title program booking had a formula it always followed and someone winning by leaving a cage instead of by clean pinfall is a part of that formula Yeah but when they did it Bruno would kick the dudes rear end thoroughly and stroll on out, not do some goofy scramble for a door.
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Jan 13, 2019 18:39
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Yeah, the New York style cage match's logic was "there's no referee to stop the carnage."
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Jan 13, 2019 20:13
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Also, it's a way for the match to have a conclusive winner without anyone getting pinned
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Jan 13, 2019 20:37
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just get rid of the door. why does a wrestling match cage have a door they can climb over it. the door is so dumb and unnecessary and I totally get the reason they did it for Bruno but it ain't the 70s anymore.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:42
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The NXT cage is the worst, it looks seven feet tall at most. You could probably just hop it.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:45
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shiksa posted:just get rid of the door. why does a wrestling match cage have a door they can climb over it. the door is so dumb and unnecessary and I totally get the reason they did it for Bruno but it ain't the 70s anymore. Because they love the "slam the door on someone" spot.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:50
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Stipulations where one participant can fluke their way to a win like a cage or tables match seem like they could be used to get someone lower on the card a big signature win over someone higher up but it seems like nobody booking WWE remembers how to do that. Even Money in the Bank only really successfully elevated 4 people, Edge, Punk, Bryan, and Seth. Everyone else was either already a main eventer or fell back down the card and never recovered.
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Jan 13, 2019 20:56
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wwe bad
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Jan 13, 2019 21:09
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TriffTshngo posted:Stipulations where one participant can fluke their way to a win like a cage or tables match seem like they could be used to get someone lower on the card a big signature win over someone higher up but it seems like nobody booking WWE remembers how to do that. Even Money in the Bank only really successfully elevated 4 people, Edge, Punk, Bryan, and Seth. Everyone else was either already a main eventer or fell back down the card and never recovered. There's no need for those things to exist when you can just do a flash pin.
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Jan 13, 2019 21:35
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Every single gimmick match they do on a schedule is stupid as gently caress. Most of them carry risk of injury above and beyond normal wrestling levels and doing them because it's that time of year rather than doing them as consequence of a specific build makes that extra risk meaningless. There should not be heatless cage or ladder matches.
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Jan 13, 2019 21:39
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remusclaw posted:Every single gimmick match they do on a schedule is stupid as gently caress. Most of them carry risk of injury above and beyond normal wrestling levels and doing them because it's that time of year rather than doing them as consequence of a specific build makes that extra risk meaningless. There should not be heatless cage or ladder matches. It also (and I know this is obvious but I'm saying it out loud anyway) just... oversaturates the poo poo out of those matches. Hell in a Cell was a HUGE DEAL, TLC was a huge deal, just saying those words into a microphone used to get pops. Imagine if you went like two years without seeing a Hell in a Cell match, instead of getting three on the same show. It's in the same vein as kicking out of finishers--when it's sporadic, it makes for a huge moment. When guys are kicking out of each others' finishers five times a match in multiple matches it just dulls the effect. The special stuff has to be kept special or it stops being special.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:01
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The only matches that make sense to happen at a set time of the year are Royal Rumble and MitB, though I also do really like when they put the Elimination Chamber on the show between Rumble and Mania as a #1 Contender's match for the other championship not chosen by the Rumble winner.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:02
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I don't like Money in the Bank at all. The payout is a near guaranteed title win that makes the winner look either like someone who couldn't win legit, or worse, like someone who couldn't even win with the deck stacked in their favor. Lay that on top of the fact that it is a scheduled ladder match and you have a dangerous match with like 5-8 competitors that as often as not makes the winner look bad at the end of the day. Rumble is awesome though, shame that they can't even get that right anymore.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:11
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MitB wouldn't be as bad if they kept the Edge/Rollins stealing the belt the rare outcome and had the majority be pre-determined dates like RVD, Cena, and I guess technically Braun did.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:14
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Building on that old "I know nothing about NOAH and AJPW" question, I just saw two matches with Takeshi Morishima for the first time. Unreal how much he gets done doing so little. He just gets the gently caress kicked out of him, rips that nerd apart with a lariat, repeat to finish, and it's fantastic. Who else pulls off that "do more with less" style? I'm not necessarily looking for recommendations as much as just interested in the discussion.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:27
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Building on that old "I know nothing about NOAH and AJPW" question, I just saw two matches with Takeshi Morishima for the first time. Unreal how much he gets done doing so little. He just gets the gently caress kicked out of him, rips that nerd apart with a lariat, repeat to finish, and it's fantastic. Walter for certain.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:28
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remusclaw posted:Walter for certain. That was the second guy to come to mind watching him. The first was Barry Windham, just for his size and presence.
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Jan 13, 2019 22:30
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remusclaw posted:Every single gimmick match they do on a schedule is stupid as gently caress. Most of them carry risk of injury above and beyond normal wrestling levels and doing them because it's that time of year rather than doing them as consequence of a specific build makes that extra risk meaningless. There should not be heatless cage or ladder matches. the weeks leading up to hell in a cell should have the wrestlers filling out paperwork and forms to apply for the yearly hell in a cell match, including essay portions explaining why they and another wrestler require the use of the cell for the night
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Jan 13, 2019 23:07
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Roman Reigns def. Braun Strowman by disqualification (no clear thesis statement)
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Jan 13, 2019 23:22
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The Kimoa Kid posted:Roman Reigns def. Braun Strowman by disqualification (no clear thesis statement) this year's men's match would have definitely been rejected by the oversight board
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Jan 13, 2019 23:25
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I'd argue Ishii.
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Jan 13, 2019 23:31
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I agree. The idea of doing Hell in a Cell or even "just" a cage or ladder match because it's on a calendar of events is asinine. (Is this the activity room at a nursing home?) It just cheapens the gimmick at the cost of the talent's health; everyone loses. Hell No vs. The Shield is one of my favourite WWE PPV matches, but that's because you had two teams that loving hated each other and had something to prove, even though there wasn't a title on the line. That fed well into the concept of "You want to hurt each other out of sheer spite? Go ahead." I think concepts like the Elimination Chamber can work, where it's deliberately set up to be a meat grinder in exchange for some reward.
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Jan 14, 2019 00:19
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Are there any examples of someone trying to use another guy's finisher but not being able to figure out how to do it? I like kayfabe explanations for the weird aspects of wrestling, like why no one else uses something like the Pedigree if it's so effective. The explanation being that no one CAN do it because it takes years to perfect.
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Jan 14, 2019 00:46
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CityMidnightJunky posted:Are there any examples of someone trying to use another guy's finisher but not being able to figure out how to do it? It's not a finisher but watch practically any SANADA match. I will never get tired of everybody on the roster attempting to apply the Paradise Lock on him and failing.
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Jan 14, 2019 00:53
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It's amazing how many people can't figure out how to apply the figure four. I could apply the figure four as a kid after watching carefully and there are people who do this for a living, people who use it as a finish who can't do it right.
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Jan 14, 2019 00:55
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I've seen it done as comedy stories. The Disco Inferno spent some time bringing a diagram of a Figure Four to the ring and routinely failing to figure out how to apply it. And Chikara had like a whole years long meta story about a submission that was only taught to tecnicos and when one of them betrayed them and taught a rudo it was the greatest evil.
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Jan 14, 2019 01:26
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remusclaw posted:It's amazing how many people can't figure out how to apply the figure four. I could apply the figure four as a kid after watching carefully and there are people who do this for a living, people who use it as a finish who can't do it right. Nick Aldis at All In is maybe the most egregious recent instance. Also, Cody almost hosed up, shoot, the unprettier/Pulp Friction at the Dome last week.
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Jan 14, 2019 01:39
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