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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:They're also ultimately bad because the grace and favor of the gods is one of the things keeping the Shadowlands at bay. I'm sure Fu Leng is on the their list of tyrants to be dealt with but they're not destabilizing and weakening the Shadowlands. Alternatively, the gods and the samurai caste are the only things stopping Rokugan from importing Gaijin Pepper/Gunpowder and lining the Wall with cannons and guns. Sure you lose out on divinely mandated superbeigns every few millenia when the Day of Thunder inevitably rolls around again, but you gain increased capacity all the other days. But it's ultimately an actually interesting thing to explore in game precisely because the reasons they are obviously good from a modern perspective don't always work in a world with actual gods and heavens. Then again, given the gods they have to work with, Maltheism isn't entirely unreasonable either.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:04
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Not everything can be killed with cannons and guns. While I do like a good setting wherein 'by the way, Dark Lord, we have cannons this millennia' is true, it can't be the case all the time. Something I've never really been that clear on in L5R because the lovely original combat system obscured it: Just how mean ARE Shadowlands critters? Are we talking 'competent Samurai can handle a fair number of these' or 'You will need specialized equipment, troops, and fortifications to even have a chance, also god power if you can get it'?
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Jan 25, 2019 21:08
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Aren't there also many local divinities and even powerful universal divinities who are not, specifically, invested in the Rokugani caste system? Like, you could have not-monarchism and still have plenty of divine backers against Samurai Satan, from the descriptions I've been reading.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:18
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Kaza42 posted:Then again, given the gods they have to work with, Maltheism isn't entirely unreasonable either. It's hard to make a setting where maltheism isn't unreasonable. Almost all gods suck.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:25
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Dawgstar posted:The Kolat in practice is mostly a secular organized crime racket. Yeah, it's worth remembering that despite their good sounding talk they're also the Yakuza/Triads/Mafia/<insert organized crime here>. They dress it up nicely but they're not good guys by any stretch.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:28
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OvermanXAN posted:Yeah, it's worth remembering that despite their good sounding talk they're also the Yakuza/Triads/Mafia/<insert organized crime here>. They dress it up nicely but they're not good guys by any stretch. Yeah, but they're being compared to the landed nobility who like to treat people like they're disposable.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:34
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Well, they both treat people like they're disposable in their own ways. One of these days I'll get to play a totally insufferable member of the Athar, tho. In other words, a member of the Athar.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:37
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Night10194 posted:Not everything can be killed with cannons and guns. While I do like a good setting wherein 'by the way, Dark Lord, we have cannons this millennia' is true, it can't be the case all the time. There's a huge variety in Shadowlands monsters. A competent samurai, especially one with training and equipment to fight monsters, can easily handle multiple goblins or ordinary zombies or whatnot. But there's also bigger and stronger monsters, along the same power level as a well trained samurai. And even bigger and stronger than those are the Oni, incredibly powerful monsters that only the best samurai could hope to defeat one on one. However, all Shadowlands creatures have a shared weakness: Jade. Jade, the stone, is anathema to tainted creatures. A finger of jade (a standard unit of measurement, a bar a couple inches long) can kill lesser creatures outright just by touching them with it. Jade is also the only realistic way of harming Oni at all, and the Crab clan even has weapons made from or studded with Jade in order to fight Oni. The downside is that Jade "burns out" when it counteracts taint. In the finger of jade example, that finger could instantly kill a goblin or other lesser creature, but it would become useless immediately after. This together means that Jade is an important resource in Rokugan. It's valuable as a trade material (along the lines of gold or silver), and as a quickly-consumed resource for fighting the Shadowlands and the Taint. It's also useful as a material for Shugenja to use their magic, or for other religious or magical uses. Furthermore, most of the Jade mined in Rokugan isn't in Crab lands. This combined with the Rokugani tendency to play at court on the edge of apocalypse means that Jade is often held over the Crab clan's head as something they need but are constantly denied enough of. But as a convenient side effect, Jade would make fantastic bullet/cannonball material. It's going to be burned out after use anyway, and a bullet made of jade would be able to actually injure even Oni. And more people can use a gun than can be Hida Kisada.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:53
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wiegieman posted:Yeah, but they're being compared to the landed nobility who like to treat people like they're disposable. Trading one form of exploitation for another form is not a significant improvement.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:11
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I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread
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Jan 25, 2019 22:17
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Kaza42 posted:
Someone make a Legend of the 6 chambers Wild West hack already
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Jan 25, 2019 22:17
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Halloween Jack posted:I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread Do it. Doooooo iiiiit.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:38
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Kaza42 posted:But as a convenient side effect, Jade would make fantastic bullet/cannonball material. It's going to be burned out after use anyway, and a bullet made of jade would be able to actually injure even Oni. And more people can use a gun than can be Hida Kisada. If there was enough jade to go around to be projectile ammo, like every Crab on the Wall would have a quiver full of jade-tipped arrows. Jade's not that common.
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Jan 25, 2019 22:54
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Dawgstar posted:If there was enough jade to go around to be projectile ammo, like every Crab on the Wall would have a quiver full of jade-tipped arrows. Jade's not that common. Yeah, availability is definitely a concern, but you wouldn't need jade bullets for everything. Instead of making one jade tetsubo, make a few dozen bullets spread among a hundful of guns as an Oni Response Force. Or just stick to grapeshot cannons as a last ditch effort. It's not something you can use every time, but it would be an effective new tool on the Wall. But at that point it's not really L5R anymore, so it's more of an interesting goal state than anything you should try to work in
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Jan 25, 2019 23:22
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Kaza42 posted:Yeah, availability is definitely a concern, but you wouldn't need jade bullets for everything. Instead of making one jade tetsubo, make a few dozen bullets spread among a hundful of guns as an Oni Response Force. Or just stick to grapeshot cannons as a last ditch effort. It's not something you can use every time, but it would be an effective new tool on the Wall. But at that point it's not really L5R anymore, so it's more of an interesting goal state than anything you should try to work in I don't know if it even still exists online anymore, but Rich Wulf who used to be head creative guy for L5R for a good stretch of the mid-oughts did a fan thing* called Rokugan 2000 that was a 'modern' Rokugan. I can't recall if he had jade ammo or something in that stuff, because I think it's been since 2000 that I read it. It is an interesting idea, although I got super-tired of this weird diehard segment on the AEG forums who thought 'L5R but guns' was some kind of desirable apotheosis for the game. *When he was still a fan and before they plucked him from the fandom to write for them for money.
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Jan 25, 2019 23:35
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I remember Rokugan 2000 being a thing in one of the 4e books (along with Rokugan IN SPACE!!! which always seemed sort of silly to me).
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Jan 25, 2019 23:48
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Shadowlands creatures also have (well, had, I haven't read the new edition) the standard 90s shtick of CORRUPTION!!! where just existing near them slaps you with permanent, nearly-unavoidable, potentially character-ruining taint. And of course John Wick goes on and on about how TRAGIC and DISGRACEFUL it is and how everyone will SHUN YOU if they learn the DARK SECRET that you got punched by a zombie once during your job of killing hundreds of zombies to save the world.
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Jan 26, 2019 00:07
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In 5E the Taint isn't so much about CORRUPTION as it was before. Sure, it's still a threat, but there are ways to both stomp it out halfway through infection and to live with some low level of it without getting on a one-way trip to being an NPC.
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Jan 26, 2019 00:38
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My question about the Shadowlands stuff is, what are players supposed to do with it? How are you meant to interact with that poo poo beyond the odd attack of goblins or whatever?
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Jan 26, 2019 00:54
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Dawgstar posted:I don't know if it even still exists online anymore, but Rich Wulf who used to be head creative guy for L5R for a good stretch of the mid-oughts did a fan thing* called Rokugan 2000 that was a 'modern' Rokugan. Here you go. I'll be expecting a writeup by midnight, Mors.
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Jan 26, 2019 00:55
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Cythereal posted:My question about the Shadowlands stuff is, what are players supposed to do with it? How are you meant to interact with that poo poo beyond the odd attack of goblins or whatever? Maybe if you concentrated on ROLE playing instead of ROLL playing you'd understand that!
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Jan 26, 2019 01:17
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Here you go. tell you what, i'll do that when every rifts book is done
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Jan 26, 2019 01:18
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Halloween Jack posted:I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread I will not quote Engels in the tabletop thread The samurai are the bourgeoise, the Kolat are the lumpenproletariat, and the peasants are the true proletariat.
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Jan 26, 2019 01:28
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Cythereal posted:My question about the Shadowlands stuff is, what are players supposed to do with it? How are you meant to interact with that poo poo beyond the odd attack of goblins or whatever? Honestly, reading about it, SHADOWLANDS & TAINT sound pretty much like Warhammer Chaos, except dialled back just enough to not be completely retarded.
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Jan 26, 2019 01:33
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Hey could you not go slinging slurs around when discussing elf games please?
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Jan 26, 2019 01:34
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I checked back on what the Taint does, so here's a summary. Tainted is a tag that doesn't do anything on its own. Instead, various effects will target Tainted creatures or have a different effect on them. This includes the Kuni Purifier's abilities and several invocations. Weapons with the Sacred tag are especially nasty, since they cut right through resistances on a Tainted character. Permanent Taint on characters is represented with the Shadowlands Taint series of adversities, one per element. Each has some bad narrative effect, plus the usual "reroll 2 success dice on an appropriate roll and gain 1 VP if you fail" business. If you have 1+, you're Tainted. With 3+, you're also Otherworldly. With all 5 you become an NPC. How do you get Taint? Most often it's from the Afflicted condition that hasn't been removed. Or you can pick it up after keeping 3+ strife on a maho roll. Most commonly it's from the former. You can pick that up from using an Unholy item, from a crit with an Unholy weapon, or sticking around in Defiled terrain and failing a roll. But you can block that with a Sacred item (which must be Damaged instead of you gaining Afflicted), cured with a Cleansing Rite (rank 1 ritual that can also removed Defiled terrain), or otherwise removed by more obscure techniques like Rouse the Soul/Cleansing Spirit. Every two weeks you have Afflicted you have to make a TN 4 roll or swap it out for some Shadowlands Taint, so clear that up quick! (Each instance of Afflicted also has nasty consequences on its own whenever you get Compromised.) Compare this to prior games where you didn't have any intermediate step of temporary infection, and where Taint was a surefire time bomb that would inevitably kill you. At least here you'll suffer but you'll still live.
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Jan 26, 2019 01:46
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Mors Rattus posted:tell you what, i'll do that when every rifts book is done If I said I was, could I ever be believed? 
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Jan 26, 2019 02:10
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 Rifts World Book 20: Canada, Part 11 - "Most Grackle Tooth enjoy roughhousing, exploration, cow punching and combat."  "We have evolved beyond your 'Breath Right Strips'." D-Bees Yes, it's that time again to reach into the grab bag of random art pieces and serve up another helping of near-random player character options! We're referred to other books for Simvan Monster Riders, Brodkil, and pretty much every one of the D-Bees from Coalition War Campaign. With that, we can move on to the newbies.  toot The Aardan Tek are vaguely insectoid D-Bees with a large proboscus. Supposedly they came fraom another world where magic and technology coexist, and travelled to Earth as explorers. They're basically just a slack-jawed yokels who are amazed by all the creatures and magic around. They're intelligent, strong-willed, and agile, but aren't pretty, and have a lot of smell-based abilities. Also, minor psionics. They're supposedly just S.D.C., but just try and sparse this section: Rifts World Book 20: Canada posted:Hit Points: 5D6 +P.E. attribute number, plus 1D6 M.D. per level of experience, starting at level one. I'm guessing that's a typo, but it's also a continuing demonstration of the editing process at Palladium, or the lack thereof. In any case, about half of them are them are wizards of varied sorts; the rest are "Scholars and Adventurers" of one sort or another. They're nothing too special, but if you want a funny-looking character that smells, they fill that niche well enough.   Twinkling eyes. There's the Grackle Tooth, which are actually from Ramon Perez's Rifts Lone Star comic which was featured in The Rifter around the same time as this book. Which, explains why the art is of a cowboy-looking adventurer with cacti in the background. After all, when you think of Canada, you think of its arid, expansive deserts. In addition, we're told they have this Southwestern drawl. Rifts World Book 20: Canada posted:Most make light of their place on Earth, making wisecracks like, "I reckon Grandmama was sleepin' and Grandpapa was drunk, so they zigged when they shoulda zagged right inta a Rift an' here we are," and, "Don't know where we come from or why we came here, but must say Earth's a mighty fine place. The only place I've ever known, so I got no complaints. Do you?" Such comments are punctuated by the big galoots' snaggle-toothed grin (often with a stogie wedged in one corner), twinkling eyes, and deep baritone voice. They are equally flip about their name, Grackle Tooth, saying things like, "I reckon one o' you humans was so impressed by our delightful smile that he was at a loss for words, an' all he could come up wit was Grackle Tooth. I guess it's as good as any." There is a Grackle Tooth character in the comic; he speaks nothing like that. I think when Siembieda wants to make a character relatable and likeable, he has them suddenly start omitting syllables madly. Also, it turns out they have an actual species name not mentioned here. I don't know if there just wasn't any communication between him and Perez on this writeup, but this definitely speaks to Siembieda wanting to shove some cool Perez art in here regardless of whether it fit with the Canadian setting. In any case, they're mega-damage beings that are physically potent overall, but highest in terms of strength and affinity. Also they're "impervious to carcinogens and heat", in case you were worried about them getting lung cancer or burning themselves with a stogie. All they have to worry about is a crippling nicotine addiction in a world without a widespread cigar industry! Also they have a twinkle in their eye, mark that down for the Palladium drinking game.  I think I shot this guy in a video game. The Greot Hunter is a buffer, meaner, mega-damage lizardman. Mostly, they're described as being the third thug from the right in the Most Assholes Cantina. They "don't work well with other races" but "are frequently recruited by criminal organizations". Sure, okay.  Will nobly consume your worthy marrow. Conversely, the Mastadonoid is a noble savage, which you can tell definitively because they're one of the few people that explicitly get access to Native American shamanism. Otherwise, they're dim lunks that love raw meat and worthy adversaries, and sometimes combine the two and eat worthy adversaries raw. Presumably unworthy adversaries are just left to rot on the tundra, like you do. They get some random natural spells if they aren't already spellcasters as well. Once again, they "prefer to life like Native Americans" and hate machines because they do, and get along with local Inuit, who are presumably worthy, but not adversaries. So noble, so savage.  Curious pubes. Noli Bushmen are D-bees that look kinda plant-like in green and brown, but aren't really shrubfolk. It's just part of their nature-loving, treehugging theme. They don't mind machines like the mammoth men above, and are... well... rangers. Wilderness Scouts. The kind of guys we've seen over and over in terms of O.C.C.s, but these ones are an R.C.C. And they get psionics, and can take some psionic classes like the Psi-Druid or Psi-Slayer... despite the latter being themed around a secret organization of psychic killers. Sure. Maybe they have their own secret organization of psychic killers. Also, just in case you thought I was picking them for just that one mistake earlier, they did it again. Rifts World Book 20: Canada posted:Hit Points: 2D6 +P.E. attribute number. Plus 1D6 M.D. per level of experience, starting at level one.  I think I shot this guy in another video game. We have the Yeno, who are angry bug-headed fellas with a energy theme - they can shoot bolts of exceedingly generic energy, or create a generic energy field around themselves. The armor's alright, but the beams are 4d6 trash blasts. Also, they're apparently cranky and there are a bunch of sayings about that! Rifts World Book 20: Canada posted:In fact, one popular saying about Yeno is, "You have to watch yourself around a Yeno, 'cause they go to bed unhappy and wake up angry." Another is, "Yeno have the personality of an angry nest 'o hornets and an even nastier sting." Why the Yeno are perpetually nasty and in a foul mood is anyone's guess. Man, that's a Canadian accent if I've ever seen iy transcribed, isn't it? Also there's a popular story about the Yeno that I'll paraphase: ONCE UPON A TIME... There was a guy that said to his friends, "Yeno are tough guys, unless you kill them in their sleep." And then a Yeno heard that, and killed him. THE END. We're told this is a popular tale! Kind of short, though. But it's quite the roleplaying challenge: how do you play a character with an attitude but no actual motivation or backstory? "Why are you so angry?" "I dunno, it's what it says in the book." Lastly, we have some notes on Rogue Dog Packs, but which we don't mean regular dogs, but Dog Boys, the mutant human / dog hybrids enslav- er, employed by the Coalition. Apparently Free Quebec only ever used them because of the Coalition party line, so when they seceded in the metaplot (back in Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign), they decided they didn't want their dog boys and exiled them to the wilderness, which is a great plan and won't come back to bite them in the rear end... ... like, immediately. So, the grand majority of them immediately held true to their Coalition indoctrinati- er, loyalty, and joined with the mainline Coalition forces. (How they made it through hundreds upon hundreds of miles of potentially hostile wilderness largely intact is handwaved.) They're providing information on Quebec to their Coalition master- er, superiors. A tiny group of them (like 1 in 6) apparently went rogue in that they don't know who to side with but still hold true to Coalition fascis- er, ideology and have become bandits raiding those they believe to be supernatural or otherwise "contaminated". Only about 1 in 25 have abandoned their Naz- er, Coalition ways. Yyyeah. The whole "Oh, they want to be slaves to fascism! They like it that way!" line is reinforced here pretty heavily. Who's a fascist dog? You are! You are the fascistiest! Yes you are! Yes you are! But don't worry, Free Quebec will forget this happened and completely contradict it. Next: Monsters which are also D-Bees which are also Monsters and look the line is real blurry. Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 02:16
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I'm honestly a little surprised we didn't get some "authentic" Canadian speak. Although that does mean we're spared, "Oh, yah, those Yeno are real hose-heads, doncha know."
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Jan 26, 2019 03:17
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Cythereal posted:My question about the Shadowlands stuff is, what are players supposed to do with it? How are you meant to interact with that poo poo beyond the odd attack of goblins or whatever? In the first three editions, it tended to be used in one of three ways: 1) as part of a mini-campaign where the players did something heroic and then died, kind of like Suicide Squad with more volunteers; 2) a place PCs go once, under much duress, to rescue someone important or retrieve an artifact, to show them "what they were fighting for"; 3) a place high-rank characters go when they're feeling cocky (or the GM wants to dissuade them of those notions). Also, ratlings live there! Every GM I've had has framed it like a radioactive hot zone. The environment is just as deadly as the mutants, and no sane human would spend any time there. Even with protection, entering is a sign of desperation or selfless duty. L5R is big on both of those things, especially in the first three editions where characters are super-fragile.
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Jan 26, 2019 06:53
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One thing I can't remember about the Shadowlands is whether the Shadowlands themselves can be rolled back. I remember one or two bits from the other L5R reviews where the Shadowlands have expanded, but is there any way to roll them back, clean up the land, etc.? Or is it just one of those "you can fight bravely but eventually all this will be a badzone"-universes barring major divine intervention?
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Jan 26, 2019 10:47
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The Shadowlands is the next book scheduled, so we only know a bit right now about any changes to it. At the moment, it's where it was in 1st edition of l5r, so Hiruma Castle has fallen to it. The Kuni Wastes are more or less what happens when you reclaim Tainted land--it's a wasteland, but not actively harmful anymore.
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Jan 26, 2019 13:17
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I'm mostly skipping through the L5R reviews and I just got one question: are the lands still embroiled in political struggles so bad that a militarized police state would actually be an improvement?
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Jan 26, 2019 17:17
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Not really. The thing about the internal struggles of the Empire is that while there's a lot of border fights between various families inside clans and various clans, they are strictly regulated, and the current book has gone out of its way to explain that - the Clans are not allowed to fight total war against each other at all, and most wars will actually not affect the lives of non-soldier peasantry unless they live near a castle.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:39
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Mors Rattus posted:Not really. The thing about the internal struggles of the Empire is that while there's a lot of border fights between various families inside clans and various clans, they are strictly regulated, and the current book has gone out of its way to explain that - the Clans are not allowed to fight total war against each other at all, and most wars will actually not affect the lives of non-soldier peasantry unless they live near a castle. I think the perception that they were all constantly at total war with one another tended to come from the CCG.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:40
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Night10194 posted:I think the perception that they were all constantly at total war with one another tended to come from the CCG. Yeah. Since they always needed a "big event" going on, you'd constantly have have missing emperors or the Unicorn Clan trying to conquer the entire empire or Iuchiban II or whatever event you'd care to name that people could vote on the winner at tournaments.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:45
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A feudal system, at least in theory, literally is a militarised police state by any modern standard. Except probably that the devolution of power between lots of warlords, clans and cliques is, as shown by every fascist regime, a recipe for disaster. I was picturing the Shadowlands more like The Zone for a bit, and now I'm wondering if there's variants in the tainted evil biome. Maybe places that are a bit more stable than the rest and home to monster and/or cultist bases, or places that are technically safer but much weirder where strange, potentially useful things can be found. ed: I get the impression that given rules are laid down for interclan warfare and there's so many opportunities to show one another up and such, the Empire basically tries to give the Clans outlets to squabble with each other without escalating it to the point of total war that would be ruinous for everyone. And probably not always succeeding, especially given the setting inspiration. Though also given the setting inspiration, I imagine the Emperor comes out of the ashes of the last big war looking clean and declares the whole thing just a petty squabble within the unified Empire. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 17:46
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FFG still does big events but the actual games are no longer representative of actual wars, is the thing. So like, one of the big events they did was to have a tournament represent competing to prove your skills so you could sit on the council of elder players that were going to decide if the Unicorn were allowed to keep using meishodo magic. e: and while the Shadowlands are basically Hell Terrain, there are variants within it, yes. In past editions there was an actual city in the center full of Tainted samurai and talky undead, based around Fu Leng's old home fort.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:47
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I was picturing the Shadowlands more like The Zone for a bit, and now I'm wondering if there's variants in the tainted evil biome. Maybe places that are a bit more stable than the rest and home to monster and/or cultist bases, or places that are technically safer but much weirder where strange, potentially useful things can be found. Sorta, and again this was in the old canon (for whatever that's worth). Some places, generally thanks to whatever oni or not lived there, were more Tainted than others. And there was even a super-secret small non-Tainted village called Shinsei's Last Gift hidden somewhere in the Shadowlands.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:49
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Wouldn't be surprised if they expanded on the Shadowlands at some point for another expansion or an adventure and delved into the old setting material for ideas. I'm still picturing the Shadowlands like the cursed land in Okami.
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Jan 26, 2019 17:52
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