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You... err play that 5TB of games regularly? That's an unusual amount of games to store even to avoid re-downloads. I suppose you cycle the games between the drives and a restrictive net connection?
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Jan 25, 2019 17:02
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Oh no, I don't play all of those games regularly, but there's a combination of factors including: preemptively installing games to circumvent a mediocre Internet connection (25 Mb/s down, which roughly yields a little over 10 GB/hour,) the large sizes of modern games, and the relative affordability of high-capacity HDD storage. If I wanted to play *any* new title I didn't already have installed, it would likely mean starting the download and watching a movie, or two, or three... plus saturating the connection makes accessing the Internet almost impossible for everyone else in the house, so often I have to throttle downloads or restrict them to overnight. Having the HDD capacity to hold them for future use is convenient. Granted, I could certainly live with, say, a 1 TB SSD and shuffle things around, but keep in mind all of these things are luxuries anyway. We don't need games, or movies, or PCs, or SSDs, etc.
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Jan 25, 2019 23:16
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Atomizer posted:Granted, I could certainly live with, say, a 1 TB SSD and shuffle things around, but keep in mind all of these things are luxuries anyway. We don't need games, or movies, or PCs, or SSDs, etc. Speak for yourself, you dirty casual.
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Jan 26, 2019 01:00
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Atomizer posted:Oh no, I don't play all of those games regularly, but there's a combination of factors including: preemptively installing games to circumvent a mediocre Internet connection (25 Mb/s down, which roughly yields a little over 10 GB/hour,) the large sizes of modern games, and the relative affordability of high-capacity HDD storage. If I wanted to play *any* new title I didn't already have installed, it would likely mean starting the download and watching a movie, or two, or three... plus saturating the connection makes accessing the Internet almost impossible for everyone else in the house, so often I have to throttle downloads or restrict them to overnight. Having the HDD capacity to hold them for future use is convenient. I agree completely that there should be space for all the games - I do the same. No point buying stuff you're even less likely to play because you can't launch it quickly on a whim.
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Jan 26, 2019 08:58
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redeyes posted:The replacement cables are like 10-15 bux on amazon if you care. Only takes a couple mins to swap out (the power light is connected to the HD cable) You know, out of curiosity, I just disassembled and re-hooked up my SSD to the internal SATA cable and now it works fine. No beachballing or nothing.  Computers be weird. E: that was a small beachball just now but it isnt still happening so pleaaaase be fixedNope never mind there it goes. Let’s just order a replacement...
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Jan 29, 2019 01:55
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I would appreciate some advice. My system is currently running on its original processor, motherboard, and HDD … from 2009. I've been meaning to replace everything for several years but for various reasons it hasn't happened. Now my hard drive's age is really hanging over me—I don't expect it to live that much longer. I have a relatively new backup drive, but I'm thinking about converting to an SSD for a main drive. If I can't practically replace the rest right now, is this still a reasonable idea? If so, what should I shoot for? As you might expect for a person whose last new-build was a decade ago, I am feeling a little confused and out of my depth. Current: Win10 i7-920 Asus P6T Seagate ST31000528AS 1TB HDD (original) WDC WD10EZEX-00BN5A0 1 TB HDD (backup, maybe 3 three years old)
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Jan 29, 2019 03:25
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Upgrading just your HDD to SSD is completely fine and not uncommon, it's an easy way to get some extra life out of an older system. There's software to make the migration process relatively painless, just try to get a SSD at least as big as your current drive to avoid partition resizing hassles.
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Jan 29, 2019 03:43
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Converting to an SSD will make it feel like you bought a new computer.
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Jan 29, 2019 03:46
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Just want a confirmation: SSDs start slowing down once you've written a shitload to them, right? Backstory: Have an app that writes to a circular buffer at ~5MB/s 24x7 to a WD 1TB Blue 3d (and has for like a year and a bit) - only now starting to see (minor) spikes in latency on occasion that haven't really seen before when the write queue goes big. Smart results are perfectly fine - and it looks like the WD ncache buffer tech which uses SLC is almost perfect for this app. (Smart reports 5TB written to TLC, and 62TB to SLC, host writes of 56TB) unknown fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 29, 2019 |
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Jan 29, 2019 20:44
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unknown posted:Just want a confirmation: SSDs start slowing down once you've written a shitload to them, right? Older drives (and some cheaper ones currently--maybe) had issues when the drives were nearly full, because they lost the ability to be able to efficiently manage free space for writes. Total writes, on the other hand, shouldn't impact the drive until it actually starts killing off a substantial amount of the NAND, which shouldn't happen until well into the 100's of TB. If it's not a huge hassle, it may still be worth letting the drive sit idle for an hour or two, or giving it a secure erase, but honestly you should be fine with that sort of usage until the day the drive finally dies.
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Jan 29, 2019 21:02
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Thanks, that makes sense - drive is like 80% empty, and there's no bad block/realloc errors at all in smart. But with the huge cache hit ratio I was wondering if the SLC/ncache portion of ~15GB (described here: https://www.techarp.com/reviews/1tb-sandisk-ultra-3d-ssd-review/2/) was getting smashed apart. But further research puts SLC at 90-100k writes before an issue. (So like 125-150TB) It's probably something else throwing poo poo into the write queue causing the delay - I am talking about a 1ms "spike" here.
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Jan 29, 2019 22:17
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That WD blue is a consumer drive so.. A Samsung Pro would be better. This is a example of overprovisioning being a good idea as well.
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Jan 29, 2019 23:25
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unknown posted:Thanks, that makes sense - drive is like 80% empty, and there's no bad block/realloc errors at all in smart. AFAIK the SLC isn't a static area of the NAND, it gets moved around to work with the overall wear leveling. Newer drives don't even have a fixed size allocated to SLC mode. Writes in SLC mode are much less damaging to the cell, much like getting hit with a bat is nicer than getting shot with a bullet. The bat and bullet might have the same amount of kinetic energy, but the bullet is more concentrated. Some SSDs *do* slow down over time with lots of data written. In many cases it isn't even the NAND itself wearing out, because doing a ATA Secure Erase will restore performance. OTOH some SSDs actually get faster!  So if you wanted to try to restore performance you could backup the drive and secure erase it. Alternately, I wonder if the constant writes are making the drive less efficient at its internal reorganization & garbage collection? If your application is able to be paused, you could stop it and run a trim periodically and see what that does.
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Jan 30, 2019 02:41
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I've always heard of the SLC area being a fixed size dependent on overall drive size.
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Jan 30, 2019 02:50
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Lambert posted:I've always heard of the SLC area being a fixed size dependent on overall drive size. Nope, lots of them do it now. The mx500, 970 Evo, even the Adata SU800. All QLC drives are relying heavily on dynamic SLC area to make QLC not suck. They may still have a static number which is the fixed minimum size of SLC even if the drive is full. The cells that get used as SLC are the same as all the others, just programmed differently by the controller. VVVV edit: I honestly didn't know myself it was so widespread! I found out the mx500 could do it just now when I was trying to look up more examples other than the 970 and 660p. It's very cool how SSDs have gotten to the "don't sweat the details, the drive is smarter at managing itself than you are" point in such a short time. 
Klyith fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 03:16
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This is most interesting! Never read a review that mentioned the variable size, but it certainly makes sense.
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Jan 30, 2019 03:21
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It's even more interesting for the garbage tier QLC like the intel 660p
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Jan 30, 2019 07:08
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Lambert posted:I've always heard of the SLC area being a fixed size dependent on overall drive size. It depends on the drive, but some have dynamic, static, or both, of what's actually known as "pseudo" SLC. Also it sounds like there was some miscommunication between you guys with the size of the cache being variable ("moved around") versus the location being moved around (i.e. with wear leveling.) coke posted:It's even more interesting for the garbage tier QLC like the intel 660p This is an example of both dynamic and static pseudo SLC caching: the 2 TB for example has 24 GB static plus up to 256 GB dynamic when the drive is <25% full. I think the 2 TB drive is worth it for storage (due to its price/capacity) but the lower capacity ones aren't worth it because there's little or no price discount compared to TLC drives.
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Jan 30, 2019 07:14
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Klyith posted:AFAIK the SLC isn't a static area of the NAND, it gets moved around to work with the overall wear leveling. Newer drives don't even have a fixed size allocated to SLC mode. Writes in SLC mode are much less damaging to the cell, much like getting hit with a bat is nicer than getting shot with a bullet. The bat and bullet might have the same amount of kinetic energy, but the bullet is more concentrated. Thanks for the data, quite interesting to read. I wouldn't be surprised that there's some garbage collection type issues happening - the WD Blue 3D is literally a consumer level drive that was thrown in as a test, and this workload is really perfect enterprise type (solid writes - literally the os disk cache covers the reads I think) - probably should just spring for a samsung pro. Now that I think of it, I'm wondering if I can just mount a ramdisk for this app.
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Jan 30, 2019 23:41
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unknown posted:Now that I think of it, I'm wondering if I can just mount a ramdisk for this app. This is certainly a viable option. At ~300MB/minute, you wouldn't even need a particularly large RAMdisk to make it functional--a few GB would be enough so it only had to flush every few minutes.
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Jan 31, 2019 00:26
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Man why are there so many m.2 key specs? I don't even know what my motherboard supports and even if it's worth getting over sata ones.
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Jan 31, 2019 08:00
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E2M2 posted:Man why are there so many m.2 key specs? I don't even know what my motherboard supports and even if it's worth getting over sata ones. Because it's a slot not a protocol and they don't want you to plug the wrong kind of M.2 device into the wrong slot. Your motherboard manual or even just its manufacturer page showing its specs should say what it supports. If it's got an M.2 slot it probably does NVMe, but SATA is a protocol and there's M.2 slot drives that are either SATA or NVMe.
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Jan 31, 2019 08:12
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E2M2 posted:Man why are there so many m.2 key specs? I don't even know what my motherboard supports and even if it's worth getting over sata ones. Your motherboard manual should tell you exactly what it can take. SATA is perfectly fine for the average consumer though, it's rare for the higher speeds of NVMe to be appreciable outside of professional applications (i.e. if you needed the speed you would already know).
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Jan 31, 2019 08:34
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E2M2 posted:Man why are there so many m.2 key specs? I don't even know what my motherboard supports and even if it's worth getting over sata ones. You can just look at the slots to check the keying; there are several types listed in the spec but really only B & M seem to be used. Also, you probably don't need an NVMe SSD, but getting one would be more useful for the future (i.e. you could port it to a newer system.) I wouldn't pay a huge price premium for NVMe over SATA but if the price difference is pretty close then go for it.
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Jan 31, 2019 08:34
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Most of the M.2 key specs which are Not B and Not M are for internal laptop peripherals like modems which manufacturers like to modularize because they need to ship a different modem in certain countries, or some similar reason. Vanishingly few end users will ever install or remove a card in a non-B/M slot. I'm not sure that stuff needed to be part of the same standard as the variants of M.2 which are used for SSDs, but whatever.
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Jan 31, 2019 12:03
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Has anyone purchased an Inland Professional drive before? I’ve never heard of the brand and Microcenter has a 1tb model for a little over a $100, which seems like a pretty good deal. Not sure if anyone has horror stories about these blowing apart and showering their genitals with hard drive shrapnel. I’m swinging by Microcenter tonight to pick up an order and I was thinking of purchasing one to supplement my 500gb Samsung drive.
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Jan 31, 2019 18:45
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Das_Ubermike posted:Has anyone purchased an Inland Professional drive before? I’ve never heard of the brand and Microcenter has a 1tb model for a little over a $100, which seems like a pretty good deal. Not sure if anyone has horror stories about these blowing apart and showering their genitals with hard drive shrapnel. I’m swinging by Microcenter tonight to pick up an order and I was thinking of purchasing one to supplement my 500gb Samsung drive. It's a cheap dram-less drive, so fairly poky for an ssd. Fine as like a games drive or something. 1tb for $100 isn't a super deal though, the Adata 650 (also dram-less) is $100 on newegg. And prices are expected to continue going down this year. In particular I wouldn't bother buying a cheap slow SSD right now when more QLC drives are on the horizon.
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Jan 31, 2019 19:27
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Das_Ubermike posted:Has anyone purchased an Inland Professional drive before? I’ve never heard of the brand and Microcenter has a 1tb model for a little over a $100, which seems like a pretty good deal. Not sure if anyone has horror stories about these blowing apart and showering their genitals with hard drive shrapnel. I’m swinging by Microcenter tonight to pick up an order and I was thinking of purchasing one to supplement my 500gb Samsung drive.
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Feb 1, 2019 04:12
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Laslow posted:Bought one in April, died in November. Pathetic. Well, are you an inland professional? If not, that wasn't the intended usage scenario.
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Feb 1, 2019 04:16
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Das_Ubermike posted:Has anyone purchased an Inland Professional drive before? I’ve never heard of the brand and Microcenter has a 1tb model for a little over a $100, which seems like a pretty good deal. Not sure if anyone has horror stories about these blowing apart and showering their genitals with hard drive shrapnel. I’m swinging by Microcenter tonight to pick up an order and I was thinking of purchasing one to supplement my 500gb Samsung drive. If you've never bought anything from Google Express, there are some promo codes that'll get a 1TB MX500 or WD Blue 3D down closer to $100, and an 860 EVO ~$110-115. Each promo code has a max of $20-30 off, but at ~$135, 15-20% off is $20-27. NEWYEAR2019 might still work and it's 20% off your first purchase. Or, buy this: https://www.windowscentral.com/thrifter-deal-speed-your-computer-big-way-sandisk-ssd-plus-960gb-down-low-price?amp SanDisk got bought by WD and assumed their warranty service. It's a solid bronze-level/honorable mention drive I'd have no problem putting in my system. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Feb 1, 2019 |
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Feb 1, 2019 04:22
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BobHoward posted:Most of the M.2 key specs which are Not B and Not M are for internal laptop peripherals like modems which manufacturers like to modularize because they need to ship a different modem in certain countries, or some similar reason. Vanishingly few end users will ever install or remove a card in a non-B/M slot. Yeah I was going to mention that m.2 also supports USB and other stuff, but that's getting too complicated for our purposes. I've never actually seen a non-SSD m.2 device though. Das_Ubermike posted:Has anyone purchased an Inland Professional drive before? I’ve never heard of the brand and Microcenter has a 1tb model for a little over a $100, which seems like a pretty good deal. Not sure if anyone has horror stories about these blowing apart and showering their genitals with hard drive shrapnel. I’m swinging by Microcenter tonight to pick up an order and I was thinking of purchasing one to supplement my 500gb Samsung drive. Inland is Microcenter's house brand, and it's literally a re-brand of some other drive. The 1 TB one is newer and I'm not sure what's inside (but last I checked it was supposed to have DRAM, actually, but that may not be correct any longer.) The 500 GB drives were originally Centon C400 re-brands, which is a 2D MLC (IIRC, maybe TLC) with DRAM, but then they ran out of those and started selling Toshiba DRAMless models. Fine as a secondary drive, though. Klyith posted:It's a cheap dram-less drive, so fairly poky for an ssd. Fine as like a games drive or something. I think I'd recommend the SU650 just because it's a known quantity, whereas a rebrand like the Inland is probably fine but it's annoying that you can't be 100% sure which drive you're getting. Laslow posted:Bought one in April, died in November. Pathetic. Should still be under warranty.... BIG HEADLINE posted:If you've never bought anything from Google Express, there are some promo codes that'll get a 1TB MX500 or WD Blue 3D down closer to $100, and an 860 EVO ~$110-115. Each promo code has a max of $20-30 off, but at ~$135, 15-20% off is $20-27. NEWYEAR2019 might still work and it's 20% off your first purchase. All the Google Express deals are nice, but it's a real pain in the rear end that they're all "first purchase only."
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Feb 1, 2019 08:16
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Yeah, that's why I amended my post with a link to a deal on a 960GB SanDisk 3D drive for $120. Another six months and we'll probably have consumer 4TB drives for ~$299. Pro-branded drives will stay stagnant, but that's because the majority of people going for those have expense accounts or only buy poo poo that says Pro on the label for ego's sake and also maximum assurance of data integrity. poo poo's gonna get crazy until Optane and Z-NAND pricing gets low enough to start tempting enthusiasts with more than a Star Citizen ship.
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Feb 1, 2019 08:54
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That Sandisk "Plus" I believe has DRAM (that line should at the 500 GB capacity on up) but it's a variable BoM line. It's probably comparable to the Adata SU800, which IIRC has been closer to $100 (on Rakuten, with the frequent discount codes.)
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Feb 1, 2019 09:38
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Yeah, that's why I amended my post with a link to a deal on a 960GB SanDisk 3D drive for $120. Yup, not much point to those 2nd/3rd tier drives when MX500 1TB goes for $110 with promo codes. Speaking of expense accounts, I'm contemplating ordering 500GB MX500s/860 Evos as HDD replacements for my customer PC kiosk deployments whenever the existing HDDs fail. SSDs should be a zillion times more reliable, especially due to a dumbass enterprise disk encryption scheme from a big vendor which shall not be mentioned that prevents us from using local RAID 1. Palladium fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Feb 1, 2019 |
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Feb 1, 2019 11:47
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You may have seen my post in the general hardware questions thread, I'm 99% sure this is not possible, but is there a mini PCI-e SSD that I can install in the second PCI-E port of my HP DM1z? I already have a few 2.5" SATA SSDs laying aroun (and even one installed in the DM1z) but I would love to have both an SSD and a spinner in the old laptop. I think the hardest part is if I search for mini pci-e SSDs I get results for mSATA SSDs which I'm certain would not work. I highly doubt the DM1z BIOS would allow booting to a PCI-e SSD, but maybe I could convince GRUB (running Xubuntu since it's too slow for Win 10) to boot to a PCI-e SSD. Worst case scenario, if I find a mini PCI-e SSD and my DM1z refuses to acknowledge it, would I be able to cobble together an adapter to use it as a regular SSD in either the laptop or a desktop PC?
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Feb 4, 2019 04:40
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Crotch Fruit posted:You may have seen my post in the general hardware questions thread, I'm 99% sure this is not possible, but is there a mini PCI-e SSD that I can install in the second PCI-E port of my HP DM1z? I already have a few 2.5" SATA SSDs laying aroun (and even one installed in the DM1z) but I would love to have both an SSD and a spinner in the old laptop. I think the hardest part is if I search for mini pci-e SSDs I get results for mSATA SSDs which I'm certain would not work. I highly doubt the DM1z BIOS would allow booting to a PCI-e SSD, but maybe I could convince GRUB (running Xubuntu since it's too slow for Win 10) to boot to a PCI-e SSD. Worst case scenario, if I find a mini PCI-e SSD and my DM1z refuses to acknowledge it, would I be able to cobble together an adapter to use it as a regular SSD in either the laptop or a desktop PC? I don't think so. That laptop has an extra PCIe slot (besides the one taken by the wlan card) but the AMD chipset from 2011 doesn't support NVMe. So it won't even recognize a PCIe/NVMe card. And I doubt the slot is wired for SATA -- no references to it on google anyways. If you could get your hands on a M.2 sata card I would try it just to check, but don't pay for anything you can't get a full refund on. Laptops with CD slots (or blanks where a CD could go) you can get an adapter allowing a 2.5" drive to be installed.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:28
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Klyith posted:AFAIK the SLC isn't a static area of the NAND, it gets moved around to work with the overall wear leveling. Newer drives don't even have a fixed size allocated to SLC mode. Writes in SLC mode are much less damaging to the cell, much like getting hit with a bat is nicer than getting shot with a bullet. The bat and bullet might have the same amount of kinetic energy, but the bullet is more concentrated. Just an update - looks like it wasn't the ssd at all, but an update was rolled into the app (written in java no less) that was screwing up more and more (probably some failed garbage collection) giving a false drive alert. So, for people keeping track - a consumer level SSD (WD Blue 3d - 1TB) with a 24/7 writing stream to it for over a year is perfectly happy with the abuse. Smart reports are still saying 100% life left in it with zero errors on the drive.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:55
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A couple months back I related a story about how I couldn't successfully use Macrium Reflect (to get a bootable Windows installation) on one and only one occasion: to go from a 2x m.2 SATA RAID to 1x NVMe, and I wasn't sure if it had to do with going from SATA-NVMe (we discussed how there were potentially differences in partitions between the two in fresh Windows installations) or with the RAID. Well, I just did a 1x SATA to NVMe clone and it worked exactly as it has every other time, so I guess that narrows it down to RAID being the culprit. (Not that I'd recommend going with an SSD RAID in the first place, but I wanted to try it out for the first time and wanted to kind of splurge since I was building up a nice Skull Canyon NUC, which has few upgrade options in the first place plus NVMe SSDs were less common and more expensive ~3 years ago. Anyway, very few people would benefit from the performance of the SATA SSD RAID compared to the drawbacks, and a single good NVMe SSD is likely more performant than a 2x SATA SSD RAID.) And with all that in mind, I didn't forget about this: ChiralCondensate posted:Agreed that I'd rather have a tested drive than nothing, just would've thought somehow they'd've reset the tbw after that--please let me know what your test system says. So in the first paragraph, the NVMe SSD in question was another SX8200, which you were asking about, and I promised to get you a from-the-factory write number. In this case, for another fresh 480 GB drive, it came with about 600 GB written. That's in-line with what you were reporting for your 960 GB drive (~1.3 TBW.) I still think it'd be more expected to have them test each drive with closer to the drive's capacity of data written, rather than an extra 20-30%, but if that's how they do things then  Edit: noted that Chiral doesn't have PMs and hasn't posted on SA since then, so here's hoping he eventually sees this response!  --------------------------------- Some other musings/questions: Is anyone aware of any storage cases for m.2 SSDs? There are boxes like these for both sizes of HDDs (and even briefcase/chest-sized/styled cases,) but nothing that I can find to hold m.2 drives. Every search just turns up USB enclosures. I've performed some upgrades (SATA->NVMe, DRAMless-DRAM, low->higher capacity, etc.) and have some m.2 SSDs floating around with nowhere safe to store them.  I made an SSD purchase that took the slow boat from Newegg to arrive, and because of the polar vortex it was further delayed due to the inclement weather, potentially going through sub-zero temperatures for at least a few days but likely just sitting in a chilly warehouse most of the time. If the SSDs work fine out of the box, there should be no issues with them long-term, right? I mean if they were damaged by the cold then they'd clearly malfunction or not work at all, right away, correct? Finally, I've been using an old SSD with PrimoCache to speed up my game HDD as mentioned earlier in this thread, and the arrangement is working nicely. It's a PQI S525 MLC SATA2 32 GB for anyone interested, and I bought it for ~$90 almost a decade ago, when SSDs were far more expensive and less capacious. I used it for my last desktop, a Win7 system, which was a mistake in retrospect because not only was it a crappy SSD at the time, but it's barely enough for a fresh Windows installation in the first place, and didn't have enough free space to upgrade to the last service pack, plus it was nearly full most of the time so I had to deal with all of the expected stuttering and poor performance of an at-capacity, early-model, likely DRAMless SSD. That system is long gone, however, and this drive lives on as the aforementioned cache. I'm actually trying to burn it out though (I have other, better SSDs to take its place,) and while that may take quite a while longer considering that it is MLC after all (and there's no NAND write indicator,) I'm wondering what to expect when that finally happens. Is a dead SSD (that, again, isn't being used for an OS or storage where it should be unambiguous up-front when it stops working,) going to subtly malfunction in some way, or will it be a pretty obvious "it's dead, Jim" thing where PrimoCache will clearly not be able to write to it at all? I've never worn out an SSD before! 
Atomizer fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 23:30
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Atomizer posted:A couple months back I related a story about how I couldn't successfully use Macrium Reflect (to get a bootable Windows installation) on one Watch the sizes (down to bytes). Macrium will not write an image to something smaller.
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Feb 5, 2019 23:37
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FRINGE posted:Watch the sizes (down to bytes). Macrium will not write an image to something smaller. Oh if there's an issue with partition size you have to manually resize them (which is a little annoying) but it'll indeed work. I literally just did this like an hour or two ago as described in the previous post. I went from a 500 GB WD Blue SATA to the 480 GB Adata SX8200 NVMe. It's working fine, right beside me.
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Feb 5, 2019 23:48
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