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That wasnt me defending him, just showing that he'd rather gently caress off and do whatever than work on his own film.
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Jan 31, 2019 05:57
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Rhyno posted:He went to help Peter Jackson on King Kong or something. There's a video snippet of him directing a scene while Jackson is literally sleeping in a chair next to him. Singer got a ton of ahit because Returns was behind schedule and over budget. “Uh, Bryan, good to see you and all, but don’t you have more important things going on?” “Oh everybody knows that’s just a homophobic smear campaign, Peter.” “I meant Superman, Bryan.” “Oh. Right. I’m sure it’s fine.”
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Jan 31, 2019 06:03
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The other production story from Superman Returns is that he spent an absolute fortune growing a cornfield in Australia to shoot a scene that wasn't in the movie. It's not really relevant, but it is impressively stupid, in a Heavens Gate kind of way.
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Jan 31, 2019 06:06
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I think I read that they did so without permission from the Aus agricultural board and the US corn was non compliant or something. Bad for aus animals I guess.
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Jan 31, 2019 07:00
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Rhyno posted:I think I read that they did so without permission from the Aus agricultural board and the US corn was non compliant or something. Bad for aus animals I guess. It's annoying, because ruining the Australian ecology by farming stuff that doesn't make sense here is very much our gimmick.
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Jan 31, 2019 07:22
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Remulak posted:We're kidding ourselves thinking that these tradeoffs between complicity and failure is limited to Hollywood.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:12
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DrVenkman posted:I've been pretty dubious about this documentary, mainly because Wade Robson is...somewhat of a character. He spent years telling people how innocent Jackson was before he had a breakdown (which he says was due to being obsessed with being successful) then when his career fell apart he tried shopping a book about being abused which went nowhere. Then when that didn't work he filed a 1.5 billion dollar lawsuit which got dismissed. Then he appeared in the documentary. Well it's not just Robson who's interviewed in the documentary, it's also James Safechuck. And the issues you're talking about seem to be dealt with in the film in some regard anyway: quote:The greatest hurdle Leaving Neverland has to clear is explaining why Robson and Safechuck are coming forward now and alleging acts that they have previously denied, including during their testimonies in defense of Jackson against other accusers. (Jackson’s estate has issued statements after the premiere denying all charges against him, calling the fallout a “public lynching” and saying in part, “The entire film hinges solely on the word of two perjurers.”) When Jackson was sued for sexual abuse in 1993, Robson, then 11, appeared at a press conference to say that he and Jackson had slept in the same bed without incident, and when criminal charges were filed against Jackson in 2005, Robson was called as a witness for the defense. Some reports in 2013, when Robson came forth with allegations of his own, suggested he had repressed the memories of what happened to him, but he made clear from that time on that that was never the case. He knew both times that he was lying; in 1993, Robson and Jackson still had a sexual relationship. But he says now he was simply unable to deal with the consequences of telling the truth and, even in his early 20s, afraid of severing his last remaining tie to the pop star he idolized and even loved.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:24
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It's odd how everyone's totally down to "believe survivors" until it comes to Michael Jackson, then it's "they're clearly lying gently caress them."
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Feb 1, 2019 02:44
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Coffee And Pie posted:It's odd how everyone's totally down to "believe survivors" until it comes to Michael Jackson, then it's "they're clearly lying gently caress them." Not really, everyone that's accused him has been discredited, and traumatized child actors like Caulkin and Feldman stick up for him, so there's definitely room for doubt.
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Feb 1, 2019 04:02
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Alan_Shore posted:Not really, everyone that's accused him has been discredited, and traumatized child actors like Caulkin and Feldman stick up for him, so there's definitely room for doubt. And Feldman in particular doesn't appear to be shy about making claims, so why would he suddenly change his tune when it comes to Jacko, right?
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Feb 1, 2019 04:05
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I just want to make it clear that I wasnt sticking up for Singer earlier, I looked back at my post and I felt a little gross because it could be viewed in that way. I absolutely hate that man and dont want to be viewed as the goon who stood up for a loving pedophile.
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Feb 1, 2019 04:51
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Yeah, I think there's just so much conflicting poo poo about Jackson that it just makes the whole thing seem so much murkier and almost more plausible that Jackson was some broken person who somehow thought it was ok to literally sleep with kids than that he was a sophisticated predator who managed to get away with it. And that's not even me saying that I don't think he might have been an abuser/predator. I just really don't know.
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Feb 1, 2019 05:05
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Jackson may have been perfectly fine to those particular child actors, but abused other children. He (or his estate) may have cultivated good relationships in order to cover up his abuses, in fact. That's not at all unheard of. In any case, going by the review, that documentary goes into detail about why the two accusers have denied it or stayed quiet in the past. It should be worth a watch when it comes out for wider release.
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Feb 1, 2019 07:33
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I definitely intend to watch the documentary and give it a fair read. ANd you're absolutely right that not abusing one person doesn't mean you didn't abuse another. Like I said, I really don't know and I've long been conflicted on the matter. Its just a super weird story from start to finish and like, I think that early father who seemed like a conman poisoned the well. He created this plausible doubt that forever lingers. If the question is "why do people still question the Jackson accusations?" I think that's a big part of it. Then it makes all the other random inconsistencies or flips or what have you stand out. And the thing is in the BEST case scenario Jackson was getting naked with kids and sleeping in beds with them and giving them booze and telling them all how much he loved them but all in an apparently non-sexual way. That's the BEST case scenario. And like, that's abuse too. Maybe its not sexual abuse. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't make him a pedophile. I don't know. Maybe the dude was just so broken and messed up he couldn't tell the difference and had as much interest in sex as those kids did. I don't know. But its still loving wrong and damaging and dangerous and someone should have stopped him and he probably should have been somewhere far away from children. So there's no happy story there any way you cut it. However this stuff plays out Jackson's legacy is always going to be shadowed by this stuff.
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Feb 1, 2019 07:49
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Coffee And Pie posted:It's odd how everyone's totally down to "believe survivors" until it comes to Michael Jackson, then it's "they're clearly lying gently caress them." I do not disbelieve Robson and Safechuck, I haven't really had a chance to fully process their accusations and will likely not do so until I actually watch this documentary. It should be noted though, that both cases where Jackson was taken to court were remarkably flimsy and the second time in particular the whole thing seemed to be "gang up on the weirdo" day in the LA Prosecutor's Office. I read Matt Taibbi's coverage of the 2004 trial and while it's definitely not kind to Jackson by any means (honestly Matt Taibbi is a great writer but his older poo poo is really mean to everyone) it is very brutal towards the prosecutor, basically all of the prosecution's witnesses, accuser's family/mom, and media (who kinda ignored what was actually happening in the trial to focus on pushing a narrative, to the point where when Jackson was declared not guilty on all counts they immediately jumped to "well this is clearly wrong") Taibbi's first piece Taibbi's second piece
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Feb 1, 2019 09:31
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I don't really buy Robson's defence that he was lying in court on both of his appearances because of what he did outside of court. He gave an interview saying he can't bring himself to delete Jacksons messages from his phone, he was publicly trying to court tickets to Jacksons memorial and before his breakdown he had tried to get the job directing the Jackson tribute show. If these were new accusations from new victims then you absolutely give them the benefit of the doubt, but you can't just buy Robson's defence that those other times he was lying but now he's telling the truth. Jackson was an incredibly weird guy who found himself in a unique situation wherein he was allowed to live his fantasy life. If something had happened then I don't think anyone would be surprised, but the last round of accusations, court appearances and searches were a shambles and turned up nothing that would raise eyebrows. Even the much-vaunted photos of naked children found in one of the searches were books that you can go buy now on Amazon.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:12
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Yeah I watched the doc from like 8 years ago that was all interviews of his now-adult ‘victims’ and the fairly unanimous takeaway was “MJ was easy money for families who could afford the initial attorney”. He settled and settled QUICK and once word got out all you had to do was threaten to take it to the news or w/e and he’d just cut you a check. It also has like 20 minutes of Macally Culkin interview where he explains why he’s sure nothing ever happened like that. It was a very compelling argument for human greed overtaking a very insane but ultimately harmless person.
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Feb 2, 2019 16:28
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Bust Rodd posted:Yeah I watched the doc from like 8 years ago that was all interviews of his now-adult ‘victims’ and the fairly unanimous takeaway was “MJ was easy money for families who could afford the initial attorney”. He settled and settled QUICK and once word got out all you had to do was threaten to take it to the news or w/e and he’d just cut you a check. I don't understand why TF Jackson's lawyers would ever advise him to pay off accusers. I mean if your job is to protect your client's reputation, paying off a false accuser to the tune of millions and having everyone know that he was paid millions seems like a strategy that would absolutely ensure that more false accusations are going to be made. Why even start going down that path?
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Feb 3, 2019 00:27
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Sucrose posted:I don't understand why TF Jackson's lawyers would ever advise him to pay off accusers. I mean if your job is to protect your client's reputation, paying off a false accuser to the tune of millions and having everyone know that he was paid millions seems like a strategy that would absolutely ensure that more false accusations are going to be made. Why even start going down that path? This was basically what Elton John said when asked why he let the dude stay at his place for a while: "I'd had my troubles with the paparazzi and I knew what a godsend getting out of the limelight was when you were under assault. But. If anyone ever accused me of pedophilia, I'd bankrupt myself fighting it to the last."
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Feb 3, 2019 00:38
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STAC Goat posted:And the thing is in the BEST case scenario Jackson was getting naked with kids and sleeping in beds with them and giving them booze and telling them all how much he loved them but all in an apparently non-sexual way. That's the BEST case scenario. And like, that's abuse too. Maybe its not sexual abuse. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't make him a pedophile. I don't know. Maybe the dude was just so broken and messed up he couldn't tell the difference and had as much interest in sex as those kids did. I don't know. But its still loving wrong and damaging and dangerous and someone should have stopped him and he probably should have been somewhere far away from children. This is how I feel about it. Some poo poo definitely went down, the only question is how bad it really was. And that we'll definitely never know for certain, but I still want to watch these new interviews so that maybe I can finally make up my own mind. Because it's really, really hard to fake the kind of trauma that that sort of molestation would put somebody through. I felt sick watching the Christine Blasey Ford testimony, you could tell she went through some poo poo and it was real. I mean... maybe somebody out there could fake trauma, or maybe somebody who really went through it would be some numb they wouldn't show it, but I think watching the interviews would make it a little more clear than just hearing the accusations.
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Feb 3, 2019 01:25
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Sexual Assault and the Culture of the Aotearoa music scene https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/11-04-2016/i-will-come-forward/ In early 2016, a small investigative and pop culture news website in Aotearoa dropped a long read that would propel them to popular awareness on our islands. Alex Casey and Duncan Greive finally spoke up against a very popular central figure in the gig scene here in NZ. Specially in Auckland which is one of the loci of the scene; the others being Dunedin and Wellington. It's hard to overestimate how well connected New Zealanders are to each other. We're talking two degrees of separation. It's a very stale old joke here that "wait you know such-and-such? oh of course you do. its new zealand." And when it comes to specific demographics, industries, islands, religious sects and art scenes then the pool of people becomes very small and well connected. God knows how bad it is in Iceland. So people knew. People knew Andrew Tidball was a creep. They knew of his awfulness, the way he plied his power and social connections to creep on young girls. But they kept mum. Because nobody wanted to pull the house of cards down - and nobody wanted to forgo their place in the music scene's hierarchy. After all, what is a secret if not proof of acceptance in the tribe? When the piece on Tidball dropped, everybody cut ties. He lost his student radio post. The word is he cowered to Melbourne, Australia. Melbourne must be full of people like him, honestly it seems like the exile city down here. And yay yes! We got him! The nz music scene has been purged of the menace. The group was brave and rallied together and got the creep. But this victory masks a deeper nausea. I have a friend in the Auckland theatre scene who has been sexually harassed by a prominent director. I know of at least two indie music festivals that canceled themselves because of reports of sexual assault in their tent cities by those wearing volunteer badges. There is no doubt most industries in most of the world are sick with this sort of complicity. But the exorcism of Andrew Tidball seems to have caused a shoring up of this silence. Penance has been paid, we have thrown one in the ocean. Is that not enough? Well, no. Definitely not. But we are so tired. I have no doubt this fatigue is felt in America as well. It's really exhausting to rally against a man of power. And nobody gives a crap. You've got a bunch of aging indie kids who went to lovely crust punk gigs in 2010 retweeting against Mark Turner of Superorganism because he- was really bad and- I heard he was sexually aggressive towards minors-but his parents are rich and shut down anybody with lawyers-um, i would speak out but he's gone overseas now and the eversons are done and it was in like 2011 or something so meh-oh I knew for sure! everybody knew! you didn't know!?!-there was nobody to tell, the media had no interest. There is zero outcry against Mark Turner. There is zero outcry against so many in the art and music scene in New Zealand. My feelings say its because a) people are poo poo and look after themselves in small brittle scenes and b) nobody wants this house of cards to fall because there is like literally one dude running this thing or two dudes running free gig mondays or the comedy or poetry night so we sort of have to tolerate this stuff because the only people who have the energy to prop up the scene get that energy from abusing their power. oh and there is also this: https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/pamb4y/could-new-zealands-tough-media-laws-silence-our-metoo-moment its a really big deal to publicly out somebody in the media here in a legal sense. Lampsacus fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Feb 3, 2019 |
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Feb 3, 2019 02:30
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King Vidiot posted:This is how I feel about it. Some poo poo definitely went down, the only question is how bad it really was. And that we'll definitely never know for certain, but I still want to watch these new interviews so that maybe I can finally make up my own mind. Because it's really, really hard to fake the kind of trauma that that sort of molestation would put somebody through. I felt sick watching the Christine Blasey Ford testimony, you could tell she went through some poo poo and it was real. I mean... maybe somebody out there could fake trauma, or maybe somebody who really went through it would be some numb they wouldn't show it, but I think watching the interviews would make it a little more clear than just hearing the accusations. There was just a long thread on MJ in GBS that actually had some semi-serious discussion. All I have to say is that I really can’t conclude if Jackson was a child molester or not, but he did things with children that were inappropriate, and he continued doing them even after the first child molestation accusation. I’m not convinced he was guilty, but I’m far from convinced he was innocent either. Even with this new documentary, I’m guessing it’s gonna remain a question mark.
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Feb 3, 2019 05:22
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Malek has started opening up about working with Singer https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/news/rami-malek-opens-up-bryan-singer-it-was-not-pleasant-1182119
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Feb 3, 2019 06:50
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Rhyno posted:Malek has started opening up about working with Singer quote:"In my situation with Bryan, it was not pleasant, not at all. And that's about what I can say about it at this point." I'm now starting to wonder if he's facing actual threats over the potential of him blowing the whistle.
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Feb 3, 2019 15:39
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chitoryu12 posted:I'm now starting to wonder if he's facing actual threats over the potential of him blowing the whistle. Nah, just enough negative publicity and backlash from his initial answers that his PR people made him say some stronger things.
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Feb 3, 2019 15:45
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chitoryu12 posted:I'm now starting to wonder if he's facing actual threats over the potential of him blowing the whistle. Malek and Singer didn't get on from the off, which got exacerbated when Singer couldn't be hosed directing when he was on set. This was the experience on the last X-MEN movie as well, so you really have to wonder why Fox would want to work with him again.
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Feb 4, 2019 11:15
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DrVenkman posted:so you really have to wonder why Fox would want to work with him again. X-men Apocalypse Budget: 178 million USD Box office: 543.9 million USD
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Feb 4, 2019 15:29
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I'm pretty sure if you gave me that budget I could make that much at the box office with a drat X Men movie Especially when coming off 2 successful movies
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Feb 4, 2019 15:54
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The real answer is Bryan Singer has worse information about someone even higher up than he is. It’s Epstein syndrome, they all have been up to the same poo poo with each other for so long that if one of them gets popped it’s only matter of time before they all get popped.
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Feb 4, 2019 16:02
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DrVenkman posted:Malek and Singer didn't get on from the off, which got exacerbated when Singer couldn't be hosed directing when he was on set. This was the experience on the last X-MEN movie as well, so you really have to wonder why Fox would want to work with him again. I was talking specifically about Malek saying "That's all I can say right now." Nobody says that unless they have knowledge of exactly what went on but have been told that they're hosed if they reveal it.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:13
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chitoryu12 posted:I was talking specifically about Malek saying "That's all I can say right now." Nobody says that unless they have knowledge of exactly what went on but have been told that they're hosed if they reveal it. Maybe, but his agent could have just as easily laid out the financial ramifications of souring the movies award chances. If he says anything his chances at an Oscar drop to zero and an Oscar opens a lot more doors for him than speaking out will.
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Feb 4, 2019 18:33
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https://www.instagram.com/p/BteW85nBUfu/Sarah Paulson posted:The story of Rosanna Arquette is a triumphant one- but it’s also disturbing. She was one of the first women to publicly speak out about Harvey Weinstein.
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Feb 5, 2019 01:59
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Alan_Shore posted:I'm pretty sure if you gave me that budget I could make that much at the box office with a drat X Men movie I dunno, did you see X-Men 3?
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Feb 5, 2019 05:01
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Sucrose posted:I don't understand why TF Jackson's lawyers would ever advise him to pay off accusers. I mean if your job is to protect your client's reputation, paying off a false accuser to the tune of millions and having everyone know that he was paid millions seems like a strategy that would absolutely ensure that more false accusations are going to be made. Why even start going down that path? I imagine that Jackson's behavior with the kids was so objectively inappropriate that even if it was entirely innocent his lawyers recognized he'd still be guilty of stuff like "corrupting a minor" or something and would never be able to get a fair trial. And that's like, assuming absolutely nothing sexual happened and that the lawyers felt confident in that. Assuming they were as unsure of what Jacko's deal was as we are they'd probably default to not wanting to see it go to court. And even though I have nothing to base it on, I kind of imagine that's why the two cases that went to court were so flimsy. They were presumably the ones really outright lying in a way Jackson's team could combat. While there might have been other kids who were harder cases to defend against.
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Feb 5, 2019 09:12
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STAC Goat posted:I imagine that Jackson's behavior with the kids was so objectively inappropriate that even if it was entirely innocent his lawyers recognized he'd still be guilty of stuff like "corrupting a minor" or something and would never be able to get a fair trial. And that's like, assuming absolutely nothing sexual happened and that the lawyers felt confident in that. Assuming they were as unsure of what Jacko's deal was as we are they'd probably default to not wanting to see it go to court. https://twitter.com/MJJLegion/status/874813468137967616 It was Jackson's insurance company who settled the case, against his wishes, because it was cheaper than going to court. Jackson wanted to fight the charges.
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Feb 5, 2019 09:30
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Sucrose posted:I dunno, did you see X-Men 3? Remember when X3 was marketed as a "Brett Ratner film" which is just all kinds of lol
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Feb 5, 2019 11:32
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I think a major piece of the Michael Jackson story is how it, like, maybe arrived too early? In a weird way the allegations against him have become pop culture, a series of SNL and South Park jokes as opposed to real alleged criminal acts. Like if you break down what the allegations are, they're absolutely horrifying; that he groomed and molested children. But it all came out in a timeframe where the media was salivating for the next OJ Simpson case to cover, and as a result the whole thing kind of got molded into this cultural moment. And like the fact that two people were murdered in the Simpson case, the actual victims of the Jackson case were put in the penalty box in favor of taking shots at the more visible celebrity. Like whether Jackson was guilty or not, the entire situation surrounding the allegations against him was branded as like, a joke. It defanged a lot of the possible truth that ran underneath.
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Feb 5, 2019 17:12
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Fart City posted:But it all came out in a timeframe where the media was salivating for the next OJ Simpson case to cover, and as a result the whole thing kind of got molded into this cultural moment. Fortunately, the furture-seeing media would get what they wanted the very next year, when OJ Simpson himself would be the nexus of a double homicide and trial
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Feb 5, 2019 20:05
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Fart City posted:I think a major piece of the Michael Jackson story is how it, like, maybe arrived too early? In a weird way the allegations against him have become pop culture, a series of SNL and South Park jokes as opposed to real alleged criminal acts. Like if you break down what the allegations are, they're absolutely horrifying; that he groomed and molested children. But it all came out in a timeframe where the media was salivating for the next OJ Simpson case to cover, and as a result the whole thing kind of got molded into this cultural moment. And like the fact that two people were murdered in the Simpson case, the actual victims of the Jackson case were put in the penalty box in favor of taking shots at the more visible celebrity. Like whether Jackson was guilty or not, the entire situation surrounding the allegations against him was branded as like, a joke. It defanged a lot of the possible truth that ran underneath. I mean, on the other hand, the joke always had an undercurrent of absolute violent hatred towards Jackson. His music basically stopped being played on the radio for a decade plus, and only started again after his death; going out of your way to listen to his music or watch Captain EO or Thriller was basically taken as a sign that you, too, were a chi-mo. It was less of a case of people laughing about the situation, and more of a case of people hoping that mockery would drive him to suicide.
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Feb 6, 2019 02:55
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There was also the part where Jackson was a pretty weird character even before the accusations and paparazzi and tabloids loved taking him apart before they had a decent reason to. He released "Leave Me Alone" on the Bad album in 1987. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crbFmpezO4A You had icons like Diana Ross and Elizabeth Taylor defending him saying how much they loved him and how the attacks were unfair and cruel. You had that mini series about his father and the family come out in '91 that painted him as this really traumatized, abused kid. So the whole field was really muddy and confusing. People were used to seeing Jackson attacked unfairly and cruelly and were sympathetic to him. Then you get a case like that dad who was clearly in it for the money and it just seems like more of the same. Its definitely true that a lot of it was timing. Jackson probably would have gotten a similar reaction R Kelly got recently if the stuff had come out now. It was a different time and we were still in a weird place as a society where like pretty young female teachers were molesting children and people were all "I wish she was my teacher!" And Jackson's whole life was such a tabloid mess that it felt like more of that. LORD OF BOOTY posted:I mean, on the other hand, the joke always had an undercurrent of absolute violent hatred towards Jackson. His music basically stopped being played on the radio for a decade plus, and only started again after his death; going out of your way to listen to his music or watch Captain EO or Thriller was basically taken as a sign that you, too, were a chi-mo. I don't think that's true at all. Jackson's career obviously bottomed out after the accusations but he really just stopped making music at some point. He had HIStory in '95 after the first round of his accusations and that was a massive hit and then after that it was just Invincible in 2001. That same year he did a huge 30th Anniversary thing at MSG that I knew a ton of people who were jacked for it and spent a fortune to go to (and I was jealous). "Jackson's a freak and probably a child molester" was definitely just part of the dynamic at that stage and I remember having tons of arguments about it. But I don't think he was black balled my radio or the industry or anything. He just became a recluse and had label disputes and had the marriages and kids and just generally just stopped producing new stuff to keep him in the spotlight for anything but the bad stuff. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 03:37
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