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Mel Mudkiper posted:if anything that whole thing has proven to me world building is a really bad idea I think you're being too harsh.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:46
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Oh for gently caress's sake They're back. The Argue In Bad Faith Duo here to tell us we enjoy the wrong things.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:49
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Proteus Jones posted:The Argue In Bad Faith Duo here to tell us we enjoy the wrong things. Am I batman or robin also, lol chill. Asking if creating such an abundance of backstory is really necessary when it ends up obfuscating the immediacy of the narrative is a perfectly fair critique.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:52
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You should enjoy Sanderson as much as you want 
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Feb 5, 2019 18:53
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Am I batman or robin BravestOfTheLamps posted:You should enjoy Sanderson as much as you want  This feels like a fiendish trap of some kind.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:54
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I would argue if details of the world do not exist to give the reader an immediate understanding of what is essential in the protagonist's current behavior they are entirely superfluous
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Feb 5, 2019 18:54
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And move them forward on the Hero's Journey.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:56
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Proteus Jones posted:
You should read BravestOfTheLamps avatar text. It's not lying.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:19
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I would argue if details of the world do not exist to give the reader an immediate understanding of what is essential in the protagonist's current behavior they are entirely superfluous I would argue that a thousand-page doorstopper fantasy novel is already superfluous. Doesn’t mean people can’t enjoy it anyway.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:23
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all fiction should be enjoyed first as a reflection of the Divine Creator, through whose inspiration all human art comes, and in themselves second. anything else is disordered pleasure, like masturbation
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Feb 5, 2019 19:25
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wizzardstaff posted:Doesn’t mean people can’t enjoy it anyway. No one has suggested otherwise
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Feb 5, 2019 19:26
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Does it make a difference that I played Dungeons and Dragons when I was younger, and appreciate good world building/setting building even if it doesn't necessarily further the book?
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Feb 5, 2019 19:26
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Am I batman or robin The immediate narrative is usually some character putzing around a castle waiting for the bad guys to show up, so yeah all this detail is pretty necessary just to give you something to read about.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:29
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Mel Mudkiper posted:No one has suggested otherwise Mel Mudkiper posted:if anything that whole thing has proven to me world building is a really bad idea Unless you’re going for a “WELL ACTUALLY I just said it’s a bad idea but I didn’t say it was bad for people’s reading experience” then I am not sure what you’re driving at.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:30
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wizzardstaff posted:Unless you’re going for a “WELL ACTUALLY I just said it’s a bad idea but I didn’t say it was bad for people’s reading experience” then I am not sure what you’re driving at. One can critique the efficacy and artistry of a choice without condemning those who enjoy it
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Feb 5, 2019 19:34
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The Ninth Layer posted:The immediate narrative is usually some character putzing around a castle waiting for the bad guys to show up, so yeah all this detail is pretty necessary just to give you something to read about. See, this is what I mean, if world and action are no longer feeding off each other, you drain away from the urgency of the narrative for the sake of facts for things that never existed. The better parts of Tolkein, for example, saw the world he had created as something that must be offered up to create context, not narrative
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Feb 5, 2019 19:40
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Ok sure, but worldbuilding is part and parcel of how Sanderson writes. The explicitly stated goal of all the Cosmere books is to have a bunch of stories on separate but intricately related worlds. Saying that all the worldbuilding is a bad idea isn’t a “write better” critique, it’s “write something entirely different”. It’s like reading Agatha Christie and saying all the intrigue and suspense is a bad idea and she should communicate who the murderer is more clearly.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:44
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wizzardstaff posted:Ok sure, but worldbuilding is part and parcel of how Sanderson writes. The explicitly stated goal of all the Cosmere books is to have a bunch of stories on separate but intricately related worlds. Saying that all the worldbuilding is a bad idea isn’t a “write better” critique, it’s “write something entirely different”. It’s like reading Agatha Christie and saying all the intrigue and suspense is a bad idea and she should communicate who the murderer is more clearly. Actually you can easily critique whether the narrative decisions Agatha Christie engages in serve to better enhance the narration itself. For example, you could critique the fact that "And then there we none" and "Murder on the Orient Express" are patently not mysteries because they deliberately remove essential information from the reader so as to make the unexpected reveal more surprising. They do not allow the reader to engage with the mystery as a participant, but merely one waiting for the obscured keystone of the mystery to be revealed late. You are perfectly allowed to ignore criticism that you do not find meaningful, but this is the thread for discussing Sanderson, not the thread for celebrating him. Criticism is not forbidden and I am not beholden to your insecurities when I make it.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:53
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If you have a critique to make about Sanderson's books and how the worldbuilding makes them ineffective, I would legitimately love to read it. Especially if it had some examples from the text I could relate to.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:16
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I would argue if details of the world do not exist to give the reader an immediate understanding of what is essential in the protagonist's current behavior they are entirely superfluous All actions not leading to the survival and expansion of the human species are entirely superfluous. If you enjoy things you should just kill yourself (the world building is awesome and fun even by itself, but it actually is relevant to the larger narrative. Which you'd know if you actually read the books instead of just drive-by poo poo posting)
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Feb 5, 2019 21:47
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Proteus Jones posted:
quote:So, MOD CHALLENGE just for you, BotL:
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Feb 5, 2019 22:03
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Torrannor posted:It's actually a good question how Ishar forced the Knights Radiants structure, complete with the various oaths, on both humans and spren. Ishar had the Bondsmith honorblade, and after Oathbringer we still don't really know the full extent of what a Bondsmith can do. Dalinar has only sworn the Third Ideal so far and he was already doing things with Adhesion and Tension that were quite interesting. Torrannor posted:But this ties into my earlier point: Something still binds the spren to behave in certain ways when bonding with humans. How many of the things we think are the "rules" for human-spren bonding are part of that oath/agreement/promise, and how many of the "rules" are just custom/tradition at this point is unknown for now. I have to disagree here. If you recall the context, Syl explained that spren are little pieces of the forces of nature or concepts. Truespren like Syl, Pattern, etc embody things like the concept of honor, or the "fundamental mathematical truths underlying the universe" (or however Pattern put it). They literally can't go against their nature. So when Kaladin started acting in a way that he knew deep down was wrong and dishonorable, that started to break their bond. You see the same with Shallan having repressed so many truths about her past, that Pattern almost died as well. Torrannor posted:Also, the Stormfather is a unique spren who usually resides with the highstorms he sends out. Which might very well explain why he won't come to Dalinar to be a blade for him. There's a WoB on this. No Shardblade is actually unique to Bondsmiths; every other order gets them, though it might not always be at the same level. Tunicate posted:It's probably a normal knife, but the gemstone in the hilt is special? It's been confirmed that the gemstone was specific to the murder victim, note afterwards that it's "not a normal death" and Ash thinks "they've done something to his soul", plus the subdued glowing of the gemstone. Moash just did to Jezrien what Dalinar did to The Thrill. I think the metal itself is special too. It's described as a strange bright gold that's yellow white, and Odium has been described as a burning gold, plus the color of the yellow voidspren, plus the trailing dark smoke from the wound. Too similar to be mere coincidence. I'm thinking an Odium version of a less powerful Nightblood. Torrannor posted:So I've reread parts of Oathbringer again. I wonder if spren must reside in a Parshendi's gemheart to make them a Knight Radiant. If so, that would explain why the spren preferred to bond with humans. Much less limiting, Syl can travel quite a bit away from Kaladin, and the only thing he loses is his ability to wield her as a shardblade (until she returns). Which brings me to the next point, can Parshendi Knights Radiants manifest shardblades if their spren are bound to their gemhearts? The gemheart thing is pretty confirmed in text (Listeners have to attract then capture a spren in their gemhearts in a storm coming to change forms), but I don't think that in itself is the reason why there haven't been Listener Radiants before. There was something extra that the Nahel bond gave truespren that they couldn't get from the Listeners (recall the song about how "we are broth but their meat is men"). There is something else going on with where bonded spren live - take a look at Renarin and Glys (it's remarked multiple times throughout that Glys can is never visible, then we see that Glys disappears INSIDE Renarin when Jasnah finds them in the temple, but Glys can clearly leave at will and Renarin definitely has a live Shardblade). What is going on with Venli and Timbre seems different - Timbre actually captured the voidspren in Venli's gemheart, but how that works no one knows, because the only other way we've seen spren captured is inside a gemstone. I don't know that Timbre can leave without releasing the voidspren, so maybe Venli will have trouble with a Shardblade, but I think that's more to do with the fact she's still saddled with the voidspren rather than being a Listener. The fun part of all this is because we're reading about the True Desolation, a lot of things are happening differently to before. The Stormfather is more than just a godspren, Dalinar is a Bondsmith who has Ascended, Renarin and Venli are "forming a bridge" (so cool to see that part of the Diagram play out), Adolin has managed to form enough of a Connection with Mayalaran for 7 heartbeats and who knows what is going on with Rlain, Sja-anat and the two Heralds in Jasnah's custody?! Mel Mudkiper posted:You are perfectly allowed to ignore criticism that you do not find meaningful, but this is the thread for discussing Sanderson, not the thread for celebrating him. Criticism is not forbidden and I am not beholden to your insecurities when I make it. I'll also happily engage in informed Sanderson critique, meaning please offer critique after you've read all the books that you're going to critique. Maybe you have, I don't know. But your posts in this thread give the impression that you're doing a whole lot of uninformed critique that is based on hearsay, second hand summaries and what other people are saying in the thread without having actually read any of the actual texts. You can't therefore make valid arguments about whether any particular bits of world building are or are not necessary for plot or character development on that basis, because your knowledge of the actual text is non-existent. I should also add that we're in book 3 of a 10 book series that is connected to a wider universe, and Sanderson loves his foreshadowing. Things that we think are superfluous right now may actually be crucial to future plot and character development - we just don't know it yet because it hasn't been written. Leng fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 22:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:You are perfectly allowed to ignore criticism that you do not find meaningful, but this is the thread for discussing Sanderson, not the thread for celebrating him. Criticism is not forbidden and I am not beholden to your insecurities when I make it. did you ever figure out how a book could exist that's that long
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Feb 6, 2019 00:36
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trash crap fart parp shplaaaart poot plop praise the lord! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 6, 2019 00:38
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eke out posted:did you ever figure out how a book could exist that's that long Conceptually, yes In reality, still no
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Feb 6, 2019 00:39
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What gets me about Sanderson is how stale all his examinations of divinity are. The god(s) and the power they grant aren't actually portrayed as mysteries or with any trappings of an actual religion practiced by humans, but serve solely to dispense sweet powers letting you cast fireball out of a third level spell slot. I'm not touching the world building discussion other than to note I'm convinced it's survived as long as it has due to the genre cargo culting Tolkien.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:41
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Conceptually, yes You know, if you read the book, that would help you figure it out. The fact that you replied to this post rather than my attempt to engage you in a valid critique makes me think you don't really want to put in the effort to make a valid critique.
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Feb 6, 2019 03:37
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Knife of Dreams I'm on like Ch 25 or 26 and Egwene is constantly just one-upping her teachers in the towers. It's about the most amusing thing that's happened this whole book, I think. There were one or two cool chapters earlier on, but I guess not sufficiently cool enough for me to be able to recall them now 
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Feb 6, 2019 04:09
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Sab669 posted:Knife of Dreams I'm on like Ch 25 or 26 and Egwene is constantly just one-upping her teachers in the towers. It's about the most amusing thing that's happened this whole book, I think. There were one or two cool chapters earlier on, but I guess not sufficiently cool enough for me to be able to recall them now Isn't Egwene just a cool perfect magical princess that never makes any mistakes? Wowzers
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Feb 6, 2019 04:16
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RC Cola posted:Isn't Egwene just a cool perfect magical princess that never makes any mistakes? Wowzers She's the worst of all the six Two Rivers heroes.
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Feb 6, 2019 05:02
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Torrannor posted:She's the worst of all the six Two Rivers heroes. (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve. Unless one is lumping Elayne, Faile or Min in, but none of them are from the Two Rivers?)
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Feb 6, 2019 05:56
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bitprophet posted:S...six? I can only name five. (Currently working through Lord of Chaos. Don't remember details from about here onwards either, even tho I thought I'd read up til book 8 many years ago...) I'm brain dead. I counted Min among the Two Rivers people. At least she lived in the neighborhood!
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Feb 6, 2019 06:15
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Torrannor posted:I'm brain dead. I counted Min among the Two Rivers people. At least she lived in the neighborhood! What about Tam. He's pretty cool
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Feb 6, 2019 06:41
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Torrannor posted:I'm brain dead. I counted Min among the Two Rivers people. At least she lived in the neighborhood!
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Feb 6, 2019 07:14
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You guys forgot Bela and Tam. Meanwhile I am on A Memory of Light and it's fun what comes together, but something about the writing is bothering me this time.
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Feb 6, 2019 07:32
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RC Cola posted:Isn't Egwene just a cool perfect magical princess that never makes any mistakes? Wowzers I can see the complaint of how she never really does anything but things always go her way, but  She's the only character evenly vaguely enthusiastic about anything in this whole series [of the Two River folk], so I like her.Torrannor posted:She's the worst of all the six Two Rivers heroes. Nynaeve is far less insufferable than the first, like, 6 books, but I still wouldn't go as far as to say I like her. Perrin puts me to sleep. Mat I'm still pretty indifferent on. Rand is cool when he's busy questioning his own sanity, but now it's just "channeling makes me nauseous so I'm just not going to do that anymore" which has made him a little boring recently. Sab669 fucked around with this message at 13:50 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 13:30
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Sab669 posted:I can see the complaint of how she never really does anything but things always go her way, but Books 12-14 should have you happy with the main characters again
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Feb 7, 2019 00:28
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Oh yea, the cool thing I couldn't remember from KoD - Mat read the letter from Moraine. I had this spoiled a few books back though 
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Feb 7, 2019 01:08
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How's the Wheel of Time series? Anything weird about it that would make we want to avoid it? I just started reading the first one and I like it well enough. It just seems like there's a lot of books and I'd hate to get half way into the series and find out it goes creepy somewhere. I liked the first three Mistborn books so if Sanderson finished it off I should be fine?
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Feb 8, 2019 09:54
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It's really good if you like people tugging at their hair and smoothing their clothes.
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Feb 8, 2019 10:22
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