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"The South was going to free the slaves anyway, because it was the right thing to do and also, slavery was no longer economically beneficial" is the #1 talking point in Lost Cause Confederate apologism. (Well, it is now. It used to be "slavery was benign and good for the slaves," but that doesn't fly with anyone anymore.) It also appears in Broncosaurus Rex.
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Feb 6, 2019 15:32
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Halloween Jack posted:"The South was going to free the slaves anyway, because it was the right thing to do and also, slavery was no longer economically beneficial" is the #1 talking point in Lost Cause Confederate apologism. (Well, it is now. It used to be "slavery was benign and good for the slaves," but that doesn't fly with anyone anymore.) It also appears in Broncosaurus Rex. This is, of course, 100% the opposite of the truth.
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Feb 6, 2019 16:34
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Dawgstar posted:Oh, ew. I just got the joke behind calling a Texas Ranger 'Ketchum.' There IS a famous Old West personality with the same last name, but he was Tom Ketchum better known as Black Jack and was an outlaw and member of the Hole-in-the-Wall Gang. Also, Deadlands already had a completely unrelated "Black Jack".  Yes, he was drawn as white at first, accidentally. Get it, he's Black Jack because he... um... wears black? I can't imagine any other reason. I liked him as a character, actually, but that was always pretty  Also re: the revelation of the Cackler's identity- has Arthurian myth been referenced previously, outside of the oblique hints at his background? Were we supposed to presume that this other fictional setting was a real thing?
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Feb 6, 2019 16:59
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i'm guessing deadlands was written entirely by white dudes, yes?
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Feb 6, 2019 17:08
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Mordred. Morgana, too. Deadlands devs, please stop masturbating under the table.
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Feb 6, 2019 17:43
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yes, he was drawn as white at first, accidentally. Get it, he's Black Jack because he... um... wears black? I can't imagine any other reason. I liked him as a character, actually, but that was always pretty Yeah, i was a big Doomtown guy back in The Day and I remember our somewhat large circle going "Wait, he's actually black?" Not to seem like we were against representation, but... wow, you know?
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Feb 6, 2019 17:44
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kidkissinger posted:i'm guessing deadlands was written entirely by white dudes, yes? What gave it away?
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Feb 6, 2019 19:25
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kidkissinger posted:i'm guessing deadlands was written entirely by white dudes, yes? I'm going to be say that I was surprised that Mike Pondsmith never made Morgan Blackhand an African-American because Morgan is clearly his self-insert.
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Feb 6, 2019 19:34
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Were we supposed to presume that this other fictional setting was a real thing? That said, I don't remember if they've ever specifically said that Arthurian stuff actually happened. They might have done in HoE with the Templars.
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Feb 6, 2019 21:26
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The more I read about Deadlands the less I want to play it.
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Feb 6, 2019 21:55
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Urban Jungle Ishkabibble I've been trying to come up with how to talk about the setting chapter for Urban Jungle for awhile now, and I think I'm gonna come down to this: It's insufficient. There's some baffling decisions in the design of the setting/fluff stuff that I'll be talking about, but at the end of the day, the setting chapter is a couple timelines for some lightly fictionalized US cities and then a list of places/neighborhoods and nothing more. It's actually a substantial amount of the game's pagecount, but it really doesn't feel like it when you're reading it. One of the things that kind of annoys me is that they bothered with the fictionalization at all, when from what I can tell the majority of the events are directly taken from real people and real events, just with the names changed and 'Oh, he's a stoat now' thrown in. Why even bother at that point? Why not call it New York? Why's it got to be Shaysen City? If you're going to have a mobster who is literally, directly Lucky Luciano, why's he Happy Donnola (he is also now a weasel)? What's the point? Also they meld Chicago and Detroit (And Milwaukee, and Cleveland) into one city and c'mon guys, my city's suffered enough. We were even important to rum running in prohibition! The early 20th century was Detroit's heyday! We were the goddamn Paris of the West over here, and then the Arsenal of Democracy! I'd normally go over a lot of the setting details but it's just history, for the most part. I suppose the thinking is there's a lot of setting supplements for 'The US, 1901-195X' in history books, but you'll be doing a lot of the legwork. There just isn't a lot here that's directly going to lead to an RPG plot, if that makes sense? It's a series of lists of discrete events and some places. There just isn't that much for me to write about. The biggest issue for me is that it's especially not very helpful if you're unfamiliar with noir as a genre, which for the most part, I am. I've seen Casablanca, sure, and I have a vague sense of the genre, but the setting chapter doesn't really do much to help with that. Another source of the issues is probably that the game wants to cover the entire first half of the twentieth century, and 1910 New York is going to be a hell of a lot different from 1950s New York. It's hard to nail down the tone of a place that changes every couple years, when you're covering 5 decades of real history, and only have so many pages in an RPG book to do it. I would have preferred more of a focus on how to evoke the genre in New York, or Chicago, or whatever rather than just a list of events and places. That said, the Hosting chapter has a pretty good set of material on how to structure adventures and work the narrative into the game rules. A good explanation of a standard three act structure for individual Episodes is helpful, especially if you assume a reader might be new to writing. I appreciate the Host Advice section being a mixture of creative writing guide (with decent examples/hooks) and GMing advice; it can be too easy to forget that your Host is often going to have to be a writer as well as a referee. Much of the actual advice echos the same advice from Ironclaw and Myriad Song, but that's really a case of 'if it ain't broke don't fix it', as the majority of the advice there is solid and makes for good gaming. The emphasis on 'there are threats besides death' is something I both appreciate and enjoy in the entire Cardinal line. They also include the X-Card mechanic, where a player can just toss the card on the table to say they feel uncomfortable and a scene will stop, which I'm glad to see in more and more RPGs. I feel it's especially important in a historical setting, because all too often you see horror stories about people using 'historically accurate' as an excuse to express a lot of really uncomfortable racist or sexist sentiments at a table, and having a 'nope' mechanic for if things start going down that road is an important part of ensuring a game can be respectful and comfortable to play. And at the end of the day, that's kind of it for Urban Jungle. It's a much shorter game than Myriad Song, and the review was always going to be less packed partly because the mechanics are mostly shared between the two games; they're both refinements on IC2e in different directions. Myriad Song is much more complex and expansive, Urban Jungle is intentionally cut down and simplified to try to produce a faster and lighter Cardinal. There's no need for a massive list of cool sci-fi guns and armor, because the stories this game is trying to tell don't really care which kind of pistol that thug is waving in your face, just that he's waving a pistol in your face. But overall, the book is a good 100 pages shorter; it's trying to be a shorter and quicker game. It's also just a lot more mixed, for me. I'd still recommend it if you want a solid, playtested system for a crime drama. You'll get the same mechanical quality you'll get with anything Cardinal based, and the new Soak system is really fun to play with and opens up interesting new possibilities. I really look forward to playing around with that for my own home-writing projects with the Cardinal system. The stripped down weapons and combat are generally better balanced and get across the tone they're going for. Characters are much more archetypal and a little more restrictive in design, but at the same time there's far less 'system mastery' involved in making a character, which can be a huge boon when you're introducing a new player to a mechanically complex system like Cardinal. Your PC is going to be good at the things you made them to be good at. At the same time, the setting stuff just isn't enough. I would really have preferred more of a focus on genre and 'how to write a crime drama' over the lists of events and places. The Recommended Media list is comprehensive and well done, but that's still requiring more legwork from the reader before they're really 'ready' to write for the setting. I can't recommend Urban Jungle as unreservedly as Myriad Song because the setting can't avoid that weird uncanny valley feeling for me, but it's still solid, and still worth a look if what it's trying to do is something you want to play. It'll tell the story it's going for well, the rules all work, and it's easy enough to make a PC who sounds fun to play; if you've got those three things, a game's still going to be good even if it can feel a little stripped down. Next Time: I got no idea at moment.
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Feb 6, 2019 22:07
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Evil Mastermind posted:That said, I don't remember if they've ever specifically said that Arthurian stuff actually happened. They might have done in HoE with the Templars. Well, yeah, I just think of Arthurian stuff as more folklore than mythology, though I suppose there were genuine believers over the years. It just feels like an additional stretch beyond just "magic is real!" to me , it's kind of like "suddenly, Dracula!" YMMV, of course, since it's a bit hair-splitting. Edit: Thinking more about it, I'd probably be more accepting of "suddenly, Dracula!", because that's at least tied to the games' horror themes, I think part of my whuuuuh with Arthurian tales is that they feel much more explicitly fantasy than western or horror.
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Feb 6, 2019 22:33
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Helstromme's base under Salt Lake City was originally established in the Hell on Earth timeline 200 years hence, where it's abandoned and filled with left-behind experiments (and finally confirmed the suspicion that automatons were given their high levels of intelligence by brains). Of course Helstromme has to be kept alive for the same reason the Confederacy cannot collapse and must be made "palatable" to players - they're needed for HoE so Helstromme can invent ghost rock infused nukes and the Union can drop them on the poor noble CSA because they're so evil (I know I go on about this, but trust me HoE looooves making GBS threads on the Union to an uncomfortable degree, and the Back East books were even worse. I was not surprised in the slightest to learn they were written by a nasty CSA apologist). Helstromme retiring is new, though - in the first edition he eventually buys out S&R and gets thrown out of Deseret when his experiments just get too darn scary to ignore. He leaves behind an antimissile defence system, though, so Junktown is spared when Salt Lake City is nuked and becomes the main PC heroic town. How they'll handle that I have no idea.
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Feb 6, 2019 22:56
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I think I hate Deadlands' metaplot even more than TORG's, and that's an impressive feat. The setting is terrible, too.
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Feb 6, 2019 23:01
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The Lone Badger posted:I think I'd change this by having the surviving xiticix have no interest in revenge, not even really understanding the concept. Instead they suddenly become the friendlist bugpeople you could ever hope to meet. You see, humans beat them. Now they want to learn everything about humans. Adopt human dress and customs. Horribly mangle human language. Try (and fail) to eat human food. Memorise libraries-worth of human movies. Find out what it is about humans that let them win, so they can bring it home. The D&D/Pathfinder setting Southlands did a similar thing with Gnolls. Basically the original gnoll culture is much like the standard, of a brutal might makes right society. But that might makes right works both ways, and in cases where they lost wars to more powerful countries and empires they ended up assimilating into said cultures as valuable soldiers. The vestiges of original gnoll culture are in a rural kingdom, and the ones closer to the hubs of large nations like not-Egypt and not-Ottomans outnumber the former. Loxbourne posted:Of course Helstromme has to be kept alive for the same reason the Confederacy cannot collapse and must be made "palatable" to players - they're needed for HoE so Helstromme can invent ghost rock infused nukes and the Union can drop them on the poor noble CSA because they're so evil (I know I go on about this, but trust me HoE looooves making GBS threads on the Union to an uncomfortable degree, and the Back East books were even worse. I was not surprised in the slightest to learn they were written by a nasty CSA apologist). If they can change the death of Vanessa, they can change the Confederacy. Granted upturning a geo-political power bloc is more involved than a character from a villain's backstory, but they could just make Confederate Deadlands an "alt-alt history" like their Werewolf/Cthulhu/Sixth Gun crossover adventures or something if they really wanted to keep it. Settings get retconned for new rulesets and changing times, it ain't gonna be the end of the metapl- ...actually, that may not be such a bad thing. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 23:12
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Evil Mastermind posted:There's always been an implication that magic has always been real, it just died way down after the Reckoners were sealed away. You see it more in the big setting timeline than in the books, though. That's a good question. I know there's a Templar out there who thinks he's Galahad but actual links... maybe? I honestly can't remember. I do feel like Excalibur shows up at some point, but maybe it was just a super special Templar sword called that or something.
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Feb 6, 2019 23:15
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Halloween Jack posted:"The South was going to free the slaves anyway, because it was the right thing to do and also, slavery was no longer economically beneficial" is the #1 talking point in Lost Cause Confederate apologism. (Well, it is now. It used to be "slavery was benign and good for the slaves," but that doesn't fly with anyone anymore.) It also appears in Broncosaurus Rex. Speaking of Broncosaurus Rex, Goodman Games back in 2017 announced that they planned on updating the setting for their flagship rules system Dungeon Crawl Classics. They'd call it...Dinosaur Crawl Classics. But no word of it has been past that year. The few posts I could find is a October 2017 Design Diary at the latest. http://goodman-games.com/event/dinosaur-crawl-classics/ http://goodman-games.com/event/dinosaur-crawl-classics-2/ http://goodman-games.com/blog/2017/10/06/designers-diary-dinosaur-crawl-classics/ https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223988/Goodman-Games-Gen-Con-2017-Program-Guide It was also during that very same year the Unite the Right Rally occurred in Charlottesville and attracted worldwide attention, with a single Vice magazine video garnering millions of views. This is entirely headcanon, but something tells me that said rally's violent consequences had an effect on the saleability of such a product as well as just plain not being in good taste.
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Feb 6, 2019 23:48
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Weird West/Horror West is such a fun potential for a setting and can be done right if it's not written by a bunch of CSA apologists and people masturbating over their own metaplot and pet NPCs
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Feb 7, 2019 00:05
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Robindaybird posted:Weird West/Horror West is such a fun potential for a setting and can be done right if it's not written by a bunch of CSA apologists and people masturbating over their own metaplot and pet NPCs As I've personally found, Deadlands is a lot of fun once you rip that stuff out.
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Feb 7, 2019 00:48
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The whole cackler being Mordred feels super out of left field, yeah. Like, why suddenly Arthurian mythos of all things? It feels like some writer really wanted to do something with Europe but got shot down, and just sort of slid it into Deadlands instead. Also yeah the CSA apologism is super awkward, too. I guess the rewrite really didn't do much for the system, did it?
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Feb 7, 2019 01:38
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Libertad! posted:Speaking of Broncosaurus Rex, Goodman Games back in 2017 announced that they planned on updating the setting for their flagship rules system Dungeon Crawl Classics. They'd call it...Dinosaur Crawl Classics. Broncosaurus Rex absolutely cheezes me off. I absolutely love their dinosaur work, but the premise just makes my skin crawl.
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Feb 7, 2019 02:14
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Robindaybird posted:Weird West/Horror West is such a fun potential for a setting and can be done right if it's not written by a bunch of CSA apologists and people masturbating over their own metaplot and pet NPCs The ideas are cool, but it's so flawed that I'd have to significantly rewrite it to make it playable. If I'm going to do that, I may as well write my own game...but said game would be too derivative to be worth writing.
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Feb 7, 2019 02:24
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yeah, Deadlands does so much wrong you might as start over from scratch.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:27
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Robindaybird posted:Weird West/Horror West is such a fun potential for a setting and can be done right if it's not written by a bunch of CSA apologists and people masturbating over their own metaplot and pet NPCs
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Feb 7, 2019 03:32
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Evil Mastermind posted:Deadlands suffers from that nerd mindset of "more lore = more better", which (again) was also a problem in Torg, which is where Shane Hensley got his start. Torg Eternity at least seems to have actually benefited from its new edition.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:46
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Robindaybird posted:yeah, Deadlands does so much wrong you might as start over from scratch. There are so many properties like this, really. If you find yourself house-writing most of what you're doing with a setting, just take it for yourself and do your own thing entirely.
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Feb 7, 2019 04:09
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Night10194 posted:There are so many properties like this, really. If you find yourself house-writing most of what you're doing with a setting, just take it for yourself and do your own thing entirely. See also: 40k.
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Feb 7, 2019 04:12
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SirPhoebos posted:As someone that has had a close family member commit suicide, go gently caress yourself, Deadlands. You know, they could have avoided all this and had the same effect if he were just trying to bring her back from death with no mention of hell or have her die any way they wanted and just be stuck in a Deadland or something. I love the PREMISE of Deadlands, but the setting is actually terrible. From Conferdate apologism that I started noticing in High School to just how lazily they mash metaphystical poo poo in to the terrible NPC driven meta plots.
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Feb 7, 2019 04:54
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 Rifts World Book 23: Xiticix Invasion, Part 8: "If the heroes wipe out the entire Xiticix population in one adventure, it would certainly be anti-climactic and make this world book pretty worthless."  This is the kind of thing that could happen if you ran Rifts with Feng Shui! A Hivelands Adventure By Bill Coffin So, Coffin steps in to give us a full-length adventure where the PCs are approached by a group of anti-Coalition activists called the "Free Thinkers". It turns out they robbed Lone Star (somehow), and though thye lost a lot of folks, some got out alive. They have an offer for the PCs to help deal with the Xiticix. Most of them are bookish sorts outside of a Headhunter and Zapper (the latter being dedicated electrokinetics from Rifts World Book 12: Psyscape). This adventure presumes the PCs are good guys and might be inclined to take their offer. The Free Thinkers have come to the conclusion that Lazlo's war will stir up the Xiticix to wipe out all humans- not quite true, but it's what they believe. They offer a pretty decent payout - 100,000 credits - for their job. Essentially, they broke into Lone Star to steal data and equipment in order to develop a Xiticix-murdering virus. They're not 100% sure on its efficacy, but believe it should have some negative impact. However, the Coalition is after them for their theft. They're looking to see it used and to make sure the Coalition doesn't just lock it away - or reverse-engineer it for a different target. They've placed the viral agent in a device designed not to release it unless it's at least 200 feet underground. There's a variety of answers to possible PC questions - about two pages worth - but those are the important points.  The Coalition is still working out some bugs with their robots. Then, the Coalition attacks! The PCs are essentially forced to assist or cut and run at this point. However, even if they flee, the Coalition will presume they're part of the same group and go after them anyway. If they can fight off the Coalition, they have a few (undefined) encounters with Coalition, Xiticix, or other monsters, and make it to a Xiticix hive. They have to get some scent glands from Xiticix to infiltrate the hive, though it suggests having the scent wear off if they didn't think to gather extras. But if they get in real trouble, you could have the Coalition or Lazlo forces attack the hive and provide an unintentional distraction for the PCs. Granted, this all presumes they have somebody with the skills to gather the Xiticix scent in the first place. Presumably, the PCs get in far enough to set off the viral device and run. But it turns out it probably just gives the Xiticix the equivalent of the flu, and they develop a resistance to it rather quickly.  Rifts World Book 23: Xiticix Invasion posted:Design Note: Hey, what did you expect? If the heroes wipe out the entire Xiticix population in one adventure, it would certainly be anti-climactic and make this world book pretty worthless. Biological warfare is just not a viable option against the Xiticix. The Free Thinkers gave it a good try, but they were destined to fail. The important point is that the player characters took the risk, tried to help, and earned some experience points. Not only that, but they are now among the elite few to have ever gone inside a Xiticix Hive and come out alive. That information may serve them well in the future. Is that the sound of a Siembieda edit I hear? Probably, probably. Either way, the PCs can get their payout, with the Free Thinkers' base and labs being located wherever the GM finds convenient, but probably not too far from the Coalition or Xiticix. Getting there could be another adventure. And maybe the Xiticix...  ... will want revenge and remember their smell forever. Yes, somehow that's something they suddenly want. Lots of revenge. Sure. Also the Coalition will think the PCs are part of the Free Thinkers either way and brand them as wanted. It's a intensely predictable writing crutch of Siembieda's that every act of heroism must be counterbalanced by an equal act of vindictiveness. I know he probably just thinks it's another hook to adventure, but seriously, give us some apathetic villains who just don't care every now and then. It wouldn't hurt. Rifts World Book 23: Xiticix Invasion posted:And finally, there is an excellent chance that if the heroes were not already on poor terms with the Coalition, they will be by the end of this adventure. Congratulations! You are now proud members of a vast legion of adventurers who have crossed swords and traded bullets with one of the most powerful organizations on the planet. Not only that, but you're wanted "Enemies of the State" and probably considered members of the Free Thinkers. Hey, cheer up — there is nothing cooler than seeing your mug on a wanted poster, especially when it has a huge number in the reward caption. Just don't forget to look over your shoulder every now and again, because somebody is taking an interest in you and waving over some Dead Boys, Bounty Hunters, mercenaries or ... well, you get the idea.  No, I don't know either. We get names and writeups for all of the Free Thinkers (I didn't go over them because their identities and personalities aren't real important to the adventure) and some generic Coalition statblocks. And we get the faceless Coalition group after the Free Thinkers, "Strike Force Durango". We get some reprints of Coalition vehicles from Coalition War Campaign to use, and that's that. Next: I'm doing my part!
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Feb 7, 2019 06:09
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Well, yeah, I just think of Arthurian stuff as more folklore than mythology, though I suppose there were genuine believers over the years. It just feels like an additional stretch beyond just "magic is real!" to me , it's kind of like "suddenly, Dracula!" YMMV, of course, since it's a bit hair-splitting. Suddenly, Dracula! Geizt posted:The whole cackler being Mordred feels super out of left field, yeah. Like, why suddenly Arthurian mythos of all things? It feels like some writer really wanted to do something with Europe but got shot down, and just sort of slid it into Deadlands instead. Also yeah the CSA apologism is super awkward, too. I guess the rewrite really didn't do much for the system, did it? Coming soon: Deadlands Dark Ages!
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Feb 7, 2019 07:08
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Right, right, I should have known better.
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Feb 7, 2019 08:03
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DNA Cowboys posted:
Of loving course. Someone needs to kick Shane Hensley in the dick just to make him stop. I'm really sorry Shane, but no one liked your lovely character or cared about his identity, you have to stop forcing it.
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Feb 7, 2019 08:25
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Didn't The Dark Tower do the Arthurian myth meets Western gunslingers thing?
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Feb 7, 2019 10:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Didn't The Dark Tower do the Arthurian myth meets Western gunslingers thing? The Dark Tower was also a hot spicy mess of ferocious garbage that was embarrassing even by Stephen King's standards.
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Feb 7, 2019 11:25
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Sounds like Deadlands might actually be a lot better with less metaplot, since poo poo like immortal Mordred coming out of nowhere would be just another crazy thing to go with evil spirits, mad scientists and kung fu masters.
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Feb 7, 2019 12:20
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Sounds like Deadlands might actually be a lot better with less metaplot, since poo poo like immortal Mordred coming out of nowhere would be just another crazy thing to go with evil spirits, mad scientists and kung fu masters. No, your 1880s cowboy magic game will climb into a rocketship and like it
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Feb 7, 2019 13:27
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Barudak posted:No, your 1880s cowboy magic game will climb into a rocketship and like it You say that like space cowboys don't have a proud, albeit mostly anime pedigree.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:38
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Barudak posted:No, your 1880s cowboy magic game will climb into a rocketship and like it
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Feb 7, 2019 13:45
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Any PC group who don't end up wanted by the Coalition States by their first adventure are cops.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:18
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PurpleXVI posted:The Dark Tower was also a hot spicy mess of ferocious garbage that was embarrassing even by Stephen King's standards. I'm guessing that there was no CSA apologia though. E: gently caress it, I wanted to say for a long time now that while I dislike other metaplot, NPCs and even just the extremely high amount of weirdness in the setting ,it's the loving whitewashing that ensures I'll never spend a single dime on this. By popular demand fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 14:41
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