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Marenghi
Oct 16, 2008

Don't trust the liberals,
they will betray you
I’m pretty sure that dev did come in here to complain about other devs co-opting his work.

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Solid Poopsnake
Mar 27, 2010

by Nyc_Tattoo
Nap Ghost
It's acidia.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
oh man haha i completely forgot about that

Anticheese
Feb 13, 2008

$60,000,000 sexbot
:rodimus:

Yikes. I pulled the latest version of this after eight months not playing the game, and it chugs now.

Infinite Monkeys
Jul 18, 2010

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Is this game significantly different from, say, 2 years ago? Not sure whether to bother trying again.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Anticheese posted:

Yikes. I pulled the latest version of this after eight months not playing the game, and it chugs now.

Probably because absolutely every perishable item has a freezing point and decays differently based on temperature, and also a bunch of critters now poo poo and lay eggs and stuff, and can spawn more critters which poo poo and lay eggs and stuff, and so on and so forth

e: also there might be fungal stuff nearby, that always lags the absolute gently caress out of everything

Infinite Monkeys
Jul 18, 2010

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

Angry Diplomat posted:

Probably because absolutely every perishable item has a freezing point and decays differently based on temperature, and also a bunch of critters now poo poo and lay eggs and stuff, and can spawn more critters which poo poo and lay eggs and stuff, and so on and so forth

e: also there might be fungal stuff nearby, that always lags the absolute gently caress out of everything
But freezing preserves stuff because bacteria can't grow when it's below zero C, the freezing point of the item shouldn't make a difference :confused:

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

Infinite Monkeys posted:

But freezing preserves stuff because bacteria can't grow when it's below zero C, the freezing point of the item shouldn't make a difference :confused:

I'm 98% certain that Cataclysm ignores this and simply stops decay for items that have physically frozen.

Also, you cannot consume said items. So winter is a massive pain in the rear end, now. Getting started is also a bit more irritating because the temperature sometimes drops below freezing in the early spring.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

Angry Diplomat posted:

I'm 98% certain that Cataclysm ignores this and simply stops decay for items that have physically frozen.

Also, you cannot consume said items. So winter is a massive pain in the rear end, now. Getting started is also a bit more irritating because the temperature sometimes drops below freezing in the early spring.

It seems like most items have pretty much the same freezing point anyway.

Dealing with frozen stuff isn't a super big deal since there's lots of ways to heat it up (all you really need is an item with cooking quality and a nearby fire), but it is annoying that you can't just raid a grocery store and eat stuff off the shelves anymore when you're hungry.

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

Infinite Monkeys posted:

But freezing preserves stuff because bacteria can't grow when it's below zero C, the freezing point of the item shouldn't make a difference :confused:

Not actually the case! The phase change to solid water stops bacterial growth because they require liquid water for their biochemical processes. From their perspective it's the same as if you dried the item. :science:
Freezing also kills about 80% of the current bacterial population due to cellular rupture, but that's not enough to be significant.

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene

Killer-of-Lawyers posted:

Kevin is so weird about a game with interdimensional monsters and zombies. I really don't get it. IT's like what he really wants is an in the woods survival game, but can't just go off and make his own, or re purpose the code base to make his own entirely different thing.

coming back to this after a while, and its great to see that even the in the woods survival portion is still extremely bad

its tempting me to go back and expand on all the stuff that got mainlined last time i threw a survival mod together

S w a y z e
Mar 19, 2007

f l a p

The Lone Badger posted:

Not actually the case! The phase change to solid water stops bacterial growth because they require liquid water for their biochemical processes. From their perspective it's the same as if you dried the item. :science:
Freezing also kills about 80% of the current bacterial population due to cellular rupture, but that's not enough to be significant.

Could you hypothetically freeze and thaw something enough times to purify it?

The Lone Badger
Sep 24, 2007

dylguy90 posted:

Could you hypothetically freeze and thaw something enough times to purify it?

Yes. But freezing kills 80% of bacteria and a proper pazreurisation step kills 99.999%, so you'd need to do it a lot of times. (Canning kills 99.9999999999%, for comparison)

Edit: freezing will only kill active bacteria. Spores have no cytoplasm to freeze so they don't give a gently caress.

The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Feb 5, 2019

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene

Vib Rib posted:

I'm more about the ability to craft your way up the tech tree (even as an optional "no scavenge" mode rather than a core rebalance), and less concerned with how realistic it is.

i like to play as naked and afraid in a world with no cities, and a pass i did about two years ago actually fixed a lot of those things! as long as you find a chopper wreck to beat into raw metal to make an anvil and whatnot, the only place fabrication snags is at 5 (i think) where your only real option is constructing/deconstructing clay kilns. i'd like to readdress the need for steel with bronze, but we'll see

there also needs to be a mixed fruit/vegetable salad at cooking 0, since meat is a goal and not something immediately available and getting a stone pot is a giant pain in the rear end without a bootstrap

i need to fiddle a bit more with some of the recent changes since i think it's been a few years, but i have some ~Ideas~

Fayk
Aug 2, 2006

Sorry, my brain doesn't work so good...
I think this is a little beyond the scope of what one person would do, but what does everyone think about the sort of 'tools checklist' you end up with in this game? I realized recently that I've ended up playing a few different games (CDDA, Zomboid, etc) where if you aren't doing some gimmick run, you have to spend a bunch of your beginning game just running around fighting RNG to fulfill a checklist of tools because a lot of things are super strictly gated on having certain tools (and an inability to jury rig other solutions).

Granted, I think CDDA is better than zomboid in this regard (more flexibility on tools, etc), but it feels to me a little...off. I mean, yes, sure, of course if I want a generator, that's the only solution to THAT problem, but I feel like there could be a more interesting angle here... but can't quite put my finger on it.

EDIT:

Speaking of cooking recipes, I really hope people rework the cooking system at some point. The recipes are a little too static (I'd rather see ingredients have tags/traits, ie, 'starches' should be pretty swappable etc), but also the number one gripe I have is how inconsistent it is about bulk recipes and cooking. It's almost like people who designed the system have never cooked anything more in their lives than reheating a tin of chef boyardee.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
I picked up the most recent experimental again just yesterday and some spawning semantics have definitely changed. What's the best bet to score a first aid kit nowadays in the early game for Really Bad Day? Used to be that if you started off in a milsurp store it was close to guaranteed but that doesn't seem to be a thing anymore, and after raiding a good 50 houses it seems that first aid doesn't really spawn in houses anymore either.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface
I have had kits spawn in the nicer houses with multilevels.

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene
loving the jacked up use of withered plants, and also loving the way they're a pain in the rear end to get in bulk




also loving the way you can't just override: true construction recipes

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!

Telsa Cola posted:

I have had kits spawn in the nicer houses with multilevels.

i finally found one only to realize that activating a FAK now just disassembles it.

you actually must locate antibiotics for really bad day now.

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene
lol the hunting knife has a higher butchering than the butchering knife, and the json has a note saying this is intended because when you're hunting, you're doing a lot of butchering

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008

Coolguye posted:

i finally found one only to realize that activating a FAK now just disassembles it.

you actually must locate antibiotics for really bad day now.

If you take infection resistant you have something like an 84% chance that it heals before infection finally kills you. Downing multivitamins should also increase this somewhat. Might be possible to survive just squatting in a cold bathroom for nine hours.

Coolguye
Jul 6, 2011

Required by his programming!
yeah i was wondering how well that would work because in practice that's the only chance you've got. finding antibiotics is a complete pipe dream, they don't even spawn in doctor's offices or pharmacies with any kind of regularity - you'd have to roll the dice on a hospital, but on day 1? man, that's just death.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖
The recently added difficulty of finding and using Autodocs also makes the Broken Cyborg start all but impossible, since your rapidly failing health and constantly interrupted sleep will probably lead to dwindling HP long before you're capable of both finding and clearing a hospital.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

mormonpartyboat posted:

lol the hunting knife has a higher butchering than the butchering knife, and the json has a note saying this is intended because when you're hunting, you're doing a lot of butchering

This is one of those things where it's not strictly wrong, but it's a very bizarre way to look at it. The thing about hunting knives is that they've really good for skinning, while butcher's knifes would be poo poo for that but are very good at chopping through dense meat or bone (which a hunting knife would have trouble with). The problem is both skinning and butchering are both treated the same by the game for simplicity's sake. The simple solution would be to just make both of them equally good at butchering but I guess that's too straightforward.

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene

The Cheshire Cat posted:

This is one of those things where it's not strictly wrong, but it's a very bizarre way to look at it. The thing about hunting knives is that they've really good for skinning, while butcher's knifes would be poo poo for that but are very good at chopping through dense meat or bone (which a hunting knife would have trouble with). The problem is both skinning and butchering are both treated the same by the game for simplicity's sake. The simple solution would be to just make both of them equally good at butchering but I guess that's too straightforward.

the problem's a bit weirder than that, like what's called a "butcher knife" seems to be handled a lot more like a plain old chef's knife, since an actual butcher knife wouldn't have much use outside a hunter's toolkit or a meat processing plant. and a hunting knife smells more like a bowie knife, which is just a solid general purpose knife. given those, i could see a bowie knife being given a bit more butchering, since skinning/whatnot is within its wheelhouse

but an actual butcher knife would have a significantly more curved blade than either, to help ensure a good cutting surface over a small area when doing detail work, while still being big enough and hefty enough to cut through the tough bits. skinning and breaking knives would be nice specialty knives, as they're better at each than an actual butcher knife (esp if you have a guthook skinner). then when it comes to hide treatment, you'd also want a fleshing knife which is one of the many things missing in the butchery process

it only really comes up because i'm thinking of adding some stuff to the pass i'm throwing together where you can bundle some of these tools with a mat of some sort to get a deployable butchery kit that has a higher butchery than the tools you put in (butchery tools, fleshing board, fleshing knife) as well as acting as a flat surface

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene
big toolbox fan here, ,, ,

Angry Diplomat
Nov 7, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging
Survivor utility belt or bust, imo.

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

Did they ever make it so you could put a rubber hose in your toolbox?

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
Not much of a hunter here, but butchering knifes are long, thin and slicy, for making meat cuts. Breaking bones and joints is something they actually kinda suck at. That's more what meat cleavers are for.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe

Cardiovorax posted:

Not much of a hunter here, but butchering knifes are long, thin and slicy, for making meat cuts. Breaking bones and joints is something they actually kinda suck at. That's more what meat cleavers are for.

...I actually was imagining a meat cleaver when I saw the word "butcher's knife", but yeah now I'm realizing a butcher's knife is a totally separate thing more akin to a standard kitchen knife but a little bit more heavy duty. Although I think the game does have meat cleavers as well?

Having some kind of combination "knife kit" that requires a bunch of specific knives to craft and has a higher butchering quality than any of the individual knives would be a good idea. It's not something you can really replicate well without a crafted thing because the game doesn't really know the difference between different kinds of knives - they're all just abstract butchering tools so one of them is clearly just "the best" at any butchering related task.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

The Cheshire Cat posted:

Although I think the game does have meat cleavers as well?
That's actually a good question. If there are, they must be fairly inferior to other types of cutting tools and weapons, because I can't remember ever using one.

Killer-of-Lawyers
Apr 22, 2008

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2020
You guys are making me want to fire up this terrible game again. I do like the idea of tool bundles that are more than their component parts.

Kayle7
Mar 19, 2012

Little solace comes
to those who grieve
when thoughts keep drifting
as walls keep shifting
and this great blue world of ours
seems a house of leaves
moments before the wind.
It's still a good game, despite Granades weird idiosyncrasies / hangups about reality in his ASCII game. It's real satisfying to strap a bunch of guns, ammo, and grenades to yourself in pouches and holsters, then go and clear somewhere out.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
Granade is a doofus sometimes, but the development of this game is still better than Crawl's, in my eyes. Some of the ideas are better, sometimes they're worse and even end up reverted, but on the whole, the game has really moved forward compared to where it was five years ago. It's fairly dynamic.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖
I gotta agree that the game is generally more playable and more fun than it was when I first picked it up a couple years ago, and that's not even counting the relatively recent UI upgrades to common actions. I definitely think some stuff was over-balanced, and the freezing mechanic needs more work to be less obnoxious, but on the whole it's trending upwards and I can't relate when I see so much public consensus about the game being unrecognizable/unplayable now.
Different strokes I guess.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
There have been some dumb decisions made, like car lifting just to do minor crap like changing wheels, or the whole vitamin thing. There hasn't been anything that was outright removed, though. Made less accessible? Yes, way too often probably. I can't think of anything that's actually gone. Everything I've ever seen or done in the game is still present somewhere, just not necessarily where it used to be.

mormonpartyboat
Jan 14, 2015

by Reene

Cardiovorax posted:

I can't think of anything that's actually gone.

murderous acid rain

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface

mormonpartyboat posted:

murderous acid rain

You me free infinite battery rain?

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
Infinite batteries are less useful than infinite food and/or furry target practice, so I'll be first to admit that this was actually a good change that did a lot for playability.

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The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008

Fun Shoe
I feel like acid rain could work if it wasn't so extreme. The problem with any weather that deals damage is that unless it's got an extremely short duration, what you're going to end up with is essentially a complete scouring of everything that's sitting outdoors. Acid drizzle could probably be brought back, but acid rain needs to be redesigned for it to work in the game.

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