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The Ninth Layer posted:Except you did get answered, you got six paragraphs that you replied to with two words and a smug declaration that your time was too valuable to spend reading such dreck. that post just said that it "subverted tropes". mel asked how and no one has answered chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 19:47
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chernobyl kinsman posted:that post just said that it "subverted tropes". mel asked how and no one has answered Is that the post he is referring to? I didnt quote the entire post because he kept saying it subverted tropes but didn't day how and I wanted to know how
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Feb 8, 2019 19:50
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Who wastes their time trolling book barn threads.
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Feb 8, 2019 19:58
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chernobyl kinsman posted:that post just said that it "subverted tropes". mel asked how and no one has answered I don't know why you're responding to my post there? I wasn't the one that said WoT subverts tropes; I think the series is wholly overrated. Maybe it did push the genre forward when it started in the 90's, but reading it now through the lens of 2018/2019 I think it's mediocre as gently caress. And I can reasonably say that because I'm 3/4 of the way through book 11. No one's responding to Mel because he's a fool that thinks he's qualified to discuss things he's barely opened. Like the books or not, I don't care - but don't pretend to be an expert on something you've hardly read. To try and assert your opinion as well-informed when you've hardly sampled the complete works is simply foolish.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:02
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Sab669 posted:No one's responding to Mel because he's a fool that thinks he's qualified to discuss things he's barely opened. Like the books or not, I don't care - but don't pretend to be an expert on something you've hardly read. To try and assert your opinion as well-informed when you've hardly sampled the complete works is simply foolish. Since when is asking a question claiming to be an expert
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Feb 8, 2019 20:07
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Like let's take a step back, you are accusing me of trolling because I asked you to explain a claim you made
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Feb 8, 2019 20:09
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Mel Mudkiper posted:how When you approach conversations this way it makes serious discussion impossible. For what it's worth I don't even agree that Wheel of Time "subverted tropes" and in my opinion what makes it notable is the sheer scale of the project, with hundreds of named characters drifting in and out of a sprawling narrative. But what's the point in explaining that to someone who has already clearly judged me simply for having read the book we are talking about? Despite my earlier response to you I don't think you need to have read a book to participate in critical discussions of it. But you can't have it both ways where you're here to helldump people for liking the books they read but then complain when those same people are unwilling to engage in good faith with you.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:09
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So how about that Stormlight 4 update? https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/anw66l/stormlight_book_four_update_2/ Interesting working title, "The Rhythm of War". I suppose this is the title of Venli's memoirs just as Oathbringer was Dalinar's?.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:12
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The Ninth Layer posted:But what's the point in explaining that to someone who has already clearly judged me simply for having read the book we are talking about? If you think answering is pointless dont answer. I do not understand why you are taking so much energy to explain why I dont deserve a response instead of just not responding
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Feb 8, 2019 20:12
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Jorenko posted:So how about that Stormlight 4 update? https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/anw66l/stormlight_book_four_update_2/ Has it been confirmed if Sanderson will keep up the trend of all of the books being named after actual books within the world? I really like that, although I don't love the tentative title for #4.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:14
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If you think answering is pointless dont answer. the answer is that it doesnt subvert tropes at all and no one is answering because there is no answer
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Feb 8, 2019 20:17
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Like hey I passed an english class in high school without reading past the first 50 pages of The Sound and the Fury because I just listened to everyone else talk about it in class. But I didn't go on an internet forum and discuss it in my free time because I didn't loving read the book Just gave my 12yr old Skyward and he's digging it so far. Does anyone have experience with his other stuff, like Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians, or is that more of a kids book and not for a pre-teen who read the Reckoners and Rithmatist?
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Feb 8, 2019 20:18
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chernobyl kinsman posted:the answer is that it doesnt subvert tropes at all and no one is answering because there is no answer I am beginning to suspect this but I am trying to be fair and respectful by giving them the floor to answer
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Feb 8, 2019 20:18
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Alcatraz is sillier than those, but should still be interesting to a preteen. My kid's about to turn 10 and he's enjoyed having all of those read to him.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:23
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Mel Mudkiper posted:If you think answering is pointless dont answer. Because like you I'm interested in seeing critical discussion of these books, but unlike you I understand why nobody wants to reply to someone who struggles with every post to conceal their contempt for the conversation they ostensibly wish to have.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:26
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"critical discussion" as long as no one says anything critical
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Feb 8, 2019 20:29
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The Ninth Layer posted:Because like you I'm interested in seeing critical discussion of these books, but unlike you I understand why nobody wants to reply to someone who struggles with every post to conceal their contempt for the conversation they ostensibly wish to have. Ok Do you think the series subverts tropes
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Feb 8, 2019 20:30
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Jorenko posted:So how about that Stormlight 4 update? https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/anw66l/stormlight_book_four_update_2/ Nope, the flashback character is Eshonai. Sanderson has said there's no guarantee that characters will live to see their flashback books.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:32
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chernobyl kinsman posted:"critical discussion" as long as no one says anything critical Plenty of people offered up criticisms of Wheel of Time in the last two or three pages, including that ConfusedUs six paragraph post. Even Sanderson's biggest fans in this thread still complain about the awful pacing of his doorstopper books, and that's to say nothing of criticisms people have leveled at his characters, how he handles humor, and even the "worldbuilding" that is considered one of his strengths as a fantasy author. Perhaps this thread isn't critical *enough* for you, but after all this is a thread populated by people who enjoyed his books enough to read more than one. Mel Mudkiper posted:Ok I already answered this.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:38
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Oh, for sure that. But another consistent trait so far has been that each book is named after an in-world book, and so far Oathbringer is the only one of those to be written by the flashback character, or any viewpoint character at all. I'm guessing the in-world Rhythm of War is either by Venli, or else maybe an ancient Singer text from the time of the first human invasion?
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Feb 8, 2019 20:39
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Oathbringer, Doorstopper, Worldbuilder
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Feb 8, 2019 20:43
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The Ninth Layer posted:Plenty of people offered up criticisms of Wheel of Time in the last two or three pages, including that ConfusedUs six paragraph post. You're missing the point. The point is the fart huffers like to come into genre threads, claim we either enjoy the wrong things or enjoy things the wrong way. Regardless of whatever "shallow" criticisms we have. The only defense is to simply ignore when they do it and they eventually go away.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:44
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Farthuffer. Peace upon you.
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Feb 8, 2019 20:44
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The Ninth Layer posted:I already answered this. I am attempting to reboot the conversation
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Feb 8, 2019 20:49
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Mel Mudkiper posted:fair warning, I am bringing this post into the Bonfire thread since this thread is full of babies who will melt down if we actually deconstruct it Liked the involuntarily moved discussion about involuntary collars are rape to the cringe thread. Did you just collar Torannor?
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Feb 8, 2019 21:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I am attempting to reboot the conversation Okay I'll give you a serious attempt at an answer. The one big trope Wheel of Time subverted, if anything, is just that the women are the dominant force in this fantasy world, the men are the betrayers in the world's origin story who cannot be trusted, and because of this the main character being a man with power is a huge liability and threat in this society. In 1990 this was a pretty big departure in the genre from Lord of the Rings which had maybe three women characters of note and only one with any real agency. For that matter most epic fantasy was very male-focused with maybe Le Guin's Earthsea as the major exception. Most of the major powerful characters and power players in Wheel of Time were women and the society and world had several instances of women-dominated power structures and societies. In terms of gender representation Wheel of Time was a big change of pace from its contemporaries, and the interplay between the two genders was a major element of the story and undeniably one of its biggest appeals. It's also one of the story elements that has aged poorly; the men view the women as bossy nags who are always getting in their way, and the women view the men as unkempt louts who can't help but get into trouble. Jordan does his best to paint characters of both genders as at times unreasonable in this dynamic, but it is undercut by the framing of the story around a male protagonist destined to save the world despite the doubts and concerns of the women around him, who the readers are inclined to believe are wrong. I don't think the Wheel of Time really subverted much else. The opening chapters are very reminiscent of the Lord of the Rings and while the story rapidly diverges by the second book it is still ultimately a story about good attempting to triumph against a corrupting, impersonal evil.
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Feb 8, 2019 21:52
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The Ninth Layer posted:Okay I'll give you a serious attempt at an answer. The one big trope Wheel of Time subverted, if anything, is just that the women are the dominant force in this fantasy world, the men are the betrayers in the world's origin story who cannot be trusted, and because of this the main character being a man with power is a huge liability and threat in this society. See, this doesnt strike me really as a subversion as much as a restructuring. Taking the same cliche and changing the genres doesnt actually speak to the cliche. If the pieces are different but the board is the same you are only really making a superficial sort of commentary. I do agree there is some interesting commentary on gender roles, but having not read it, I cannot speak much to it. I do wonder about how meaningful such a gender commentary can be when structured to ultimately reinforce norms, but you acknowledged that. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 21:59
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We live in a society whose norms are heavily shaped around the Bible and Eve's original sin. The Wheel of Time is an inversion if this where instead it is Adam who committed original sin and the society it portrays conveys this from.the ground up. So it's a twist that goes beyond simply rearranging the pieces on a fantasy board. Men are still men and women are still women in the series, but the power dynamics between them are radically different.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:05
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Jorenko posted:Oh, for sure that. But another consistent trait so far has been that each book is named after an in-world book, and so far Oathbringer is the only one of those to be written by the flashback character, or any viewpoint character at all. I'm guessing the in-world Rhythm of War is either by Venli, or else maybe an ancient Singer text from the time of the first human invasion? I think there could be a less literal explanation. The Parshendi songs (Song of Secrets, Song of Spren, etc.) are some kind of oral history of the Listeners. I could imagine Rhythm of War being something similar. So it's not a book, but another song telling a story. Of course, it would break the traditional, simple naming theme of the Parshendi songs. So it wouldn't surprise me if Venli were composing the Rhythm of War to teach the various Parshmen how to be Parshendi, and not simply Odium's toadies. Or it's a song designed by Eshonai, that the Parshendi rebels who escape the Everstorm at the end of Words of Radiance tell Venli about. So many possibilities.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:05
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The Ninth Layer posted:We live in a society whose norms are heavily shapes around the Bible and Eve's original sin. The Wheel of Time is an inversion if this where instead it is Adam who committed original sin and the society it portrays conveys this from.the ground up. So it's a twist that goes beyond simply rearranging the pieces on a fantasy board. Men are still men and women are still women in the series, but the power dynamics between them are radically different. But the trope is a fallen world caused by the deception of a naive progenitor. Making it a man rather than a woman still operates under that narrative framework.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:07
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Mel Mudkiper posted:But the trope is a fallen world caused by the deception of a naive progenitor. Making it a man rather than a woman still operates under that narrative framework. The trope being flipped is that women are not the weaker sex, nor are they untrustworthy deceivers. Instead they are the movers and shakers of the world who cannot be dismissed or ignored. As someone else put it a few pages earlier the Wheel of Time portrays an inversion of our society's patriarchy. Setting aside the larger narrative I am struggling to think of another work of fiction that has done something similar. Without an assumption of gender essentialism this inversion is less meaningful. Jordan was certainly writing from the perspective that men are like this and women are like this. So the work does not really hold up as progressive in 2019 where people are beginning to reject the dichotomy of masculine vs feminine traits. The Ninth Layer fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 22:19
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The Ninth Layer posted:As someone else put it a few pages earlier the Wheel of Time portrays an inversion of our society's patriarchy. Setting aside the larger narrative I am struggling to think of another work of fiction that has done something similar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herland_(novel)
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Feb 8, 2019 22:31
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The Ninth Layer posted:The trope being flipped is that women are not the weaker sex, nor are they untrustworthy deceivers. Instead they are the movers and shakers of the world who cannot be dismissed or ignored. As someone else put it a few pages earlier the Wheel of Time portrays an inversion of our society's patriarchy. Setting aside the larger narrative I am struggling to think of another work of fiction that has done something similar. Well, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on how we define tropes. To me, to subvert a trope is to analyze how and why we return time and time again to certain narrative patterns and to create discomfort in the reader by taking that scenario into a different outcome. I guess my two issues on the face of it are that a patriarchal society is not a story element as much as it is a reflection of social realities. If you are going to present a society that has a power balance opposite of our own, there needs to be a point that you are speaking to. If men and women can have different power but still be men and women and society is still society it seems a relatively superficial alteration
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Feb 8, 2019 22:31
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Take, for instance, "The Power" by Naomi Alderman in which the switch from a patriarchal to matriarchal culture is caused by a very tangible shift in the power dynamics between the genders. If you switch the foundational prejudices of a culture you will end up with a wholly different culture that operates on wholly different assumptions. You cannot simply "switch" the roles of power and have that be the only tangible change.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:33
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Sab669 posted:No one's saying you need to read the whole series, but you can't say "Yes I read it" if you read 1/7th of one book in a 14 book series. I don't get this attitude. Ignore the percentages; 100 pages is more than enough time to get a sense of a person's ability with prose and their tendencies towards characterization. That's enough to have written three competent short stories, or a significant amount of a novel in the days before publisher-enforced bloat began. If by the end of 100 pages you are left with leaden prose, stock characters, and a plot that is cliched as all hell to that point, and you know you're dealing with a series where even its fans say it's riddled with issues, why would you continue? Exactly how much of a poo poo sandwich do you have to eat before you can safely say that it's poo poo? I'm trying to picture convincing an editor that, though they've "only" read one hundred pages of my manuscript, just hang in there, because it really kicks into gear by page 300 or so. Instead of ensuring that people give things a fair chance, I think the idea either a) says a lot about the average person's inability to rapidly understand what they want out of a book or b) raises plot above all other considerations (the only thing that realistically might get markedly better over time and so potentially be worth waiting for; the prose isn't likely to jump in quality in a consistent fashion halfway through), not understanding that plot alone cannot save a book for many people. And yes, I've read the entire WoT series, god help me.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:39
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Goondolences.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:44
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Xotl posted:I don't get this attitude. Ignore the percentages; 100 pages is more than enough time to get a sense of a person's ability with prose and their tendencies towards characterization. Of course it is. But it's not enough to say you've "read the series". To say that is dumb and wrong, you should say "I started it and didn't like it so I stopped". I've never read WoT and I never plan to, because the posts in this thread about it even by the "fans" make it sound like an exceptionally tedious slog.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:47
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Taffer posted:Of course it is. But it's not enough to say you've "read the series". To say that is dumb and wrong, you should say "I started it and didn't like it so I stopped". To be fair I never said I read the series. I said I read Wheel of Time, which is true.
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Feb 8, 2019 22:48
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Well, I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on how we define tropes. To me, to subvert a trope is to analyze how and why we return time and time again to certain narrative patterns and to create discomfort in the reader by taking that scenario into a different outcome. I would argue that what you describe in the first paragraph is what the Wheel of Time does. The ruling class of wizards are all women and very early on they attempt to gain control of the make protagonist for reasons tied directly to the character's gender. Essentially they believe that the main character (or any man) will go mad if allowed to wield power, and there are women dedicated to put men down when they show signs of exercising this power. Of course an element to this discomfort is that women can be overbearing nags and there's basically nothing the men can do about it, but then we're barely two years removed from an election where one of the two major candidates was dismissed by a good portion of the electorate as an arrogant bitch, so it does work at times as an effective reflection of our own society. When the women are annoying it is because they are annoying from the perspective of the male protagonist whose agency is impeded, in much the same way that many fans of Breaking Bad thought Skyler was annoying for getting in Walt's way even though she was totally justified in almost everything she did. What Jordan is speaking to is that women can wield power, can have agency, and can be effective if given the opportunity. To the degree that he succeeds in conveying this is questionable but it is obviously one of his intentions. He is playing with the reader's existing preconceptions of gender roles in the way he portrays his society and character interactions. This doesn't make Jordan high literature and I will freely admit to the story's many shortcomings, but it's also not a lazy or poorly executed story element but rather a core focus of the story's themes
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Feb 8, 2019 22:57
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chernobyl kinsman posted:lol that fantasy is so rear end-backwards that it took until 1990 before someone put a girl in a book, and this is seen as a defense the worm ouroboros has women in it and it's from 1922. hell, it looks to me like fantasy fans don't even know anything about the history of their genre of choice
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Feb 8, 2019 23:02
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