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Cardiovorax posted:No, you aren't. This is basically why Gooncrawl is even a thing. Trunk Crawl hasn't gone anywhere really new in years. That's not fair. Lots of cool stuff was added after 0.10, like a bunch of really unique and interesting gods (who doesn't love Gozag?). Stuff was removed and changed but it usually wasn't for the detriment of the game. And while I am usually against removal, there is a lot of stuff gone that I don't care about at all. And a bunch of the mechanical changes have made the game more fun as well. I dunno when my feelings about the game really turned sour but I'd guess it was around 0.18 or so. The rate of cool and interesting stuff being added was dwindling and a lot the changes were starting to annoy me. KoldPT posted:You can just look at the amount of posts in the threads for a more empirical way to look at this! I honestly thought Crawl had died when I couldn't find the thread because of how infrequently people have been posting about it. SA is just one part of the Crawl community though. I have no idea how the larger fanbase has grown and shifted over the years.
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Feb 9, 2019 00:12
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It would be nice if they improved some things (cough extended cough), but for the most part Crawl is a complete game as is. What I got tired of is all the arbitrary balance content changes that remove things I like or change things that are fine. Boulder beetles were fun goddammit
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Feb 9, 2019 00:12
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Internet Kraken posted:That's not fair. Lots of cool stuff was added after 0.10 I mean, no offense if it doesn't bother you, but I liked LHDC for what it was and simply wanted it to be more of itself. Stone Soup isn't really designed for people like me anymore, though. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 00:21
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Cardiovorax posted:The dev team aren't designers at this point. They're curators. Well said.
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Feb 9, 2019 04:17
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Cardiovorax posted:It's totally fair if you don't actually like the majority of the changes since then. Gozag is cool, but when was the last time they added a new branch to the game, or a new skill, or a genuinely new mechanic? I don't even remember, and I've been playing this game since it was still Linley Henzell's Dungeon Crawl. The dev team aren't designers at this point. They're curators. Well, I guess i'm just saying a lot of the new content is good so I wouldn't wanna throw it all under the rug. I haven't played the game as long as you, so I dunno what stuff pre 0.10 you really miss. It seems like we have the same opinion though, just spread across a time gap. Its just so disheartening... I really used to look forward to every new version. Now it just feels like the devs wanna make the game harder in pursuit of what they consider interesting gameplay. I see a lengthy discussion about cutting all resists down to one pip and making them all rarer and I wonder... why? Why do they not think gearing, the part of almost every RPG in existence, is now a bad part of Crawl? They say is always simple and straightforward and even with over a hundred wins I don't understand where the hell they are coming from. Why even focus so much on stuff like that? Why constantly rework systems people are enjoying while ignoring the stuff everyone agrees still sucks? I don't get it.
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Feb 9, 2019 05:08
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Is there an issue with Gooncrawl on Webtiles and saves? Was playing CPO last night, logged in today and my save is entirely gone. 
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Feb 9, 2019 05:54
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Kinda funny it's still called stone soup when they just turn away people bringing stuff to toss in now
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Feb 9, 2019 06:05
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Internet Kraken posted:Honestly I don't understand what the heck the devs think of mutations these days. There was a discussion in a Crawl discord about Zot and I said I actively avoid going there unless I need EXP now, because I don't wanna pick up irresistible mutations from OOFs. I usually stand in a moderate position on how much the dev team sucks and how much they’re ruining the game, but this perfectly encapsulates one of the things I find most frustrating about the way development is handled now. Even if gammafunk’s position that “mutations aren’t dangerous” is 100% true, his statement is still ridiculous. I actually don’t feel too bothered by malmutate, especially in Zot, but I can recognize that outside of a certain limited group of players, negative mutations, even when they don’t damage your chance of victory much, feel bad. Getting an awesome set of positive mutations feels good. I don’t think I need to cite much evidence to support that. It’s common sense and the way a very large number of people play the game makes it extremely clear. But rather than accepting that players don’t like unavoidable malmutate, gammafunk dictates to players what they’re supposed to like and how they ought to feel. You’re not supposed to feel bad about malmutate because it doesn’t actually lower your chance of victory much. If you do feel bad, your feeling is wrong. There is only one way to appreciate the game, and it is through a purely analytic lens. It’s fine for the devs to focus on catering almost entirely to the really analytic, competitive-minded players. But it’s no surprise when people who aren’t in that group complain. What really drives me nuts is when the devs, in response to those (legitimate) complaints, don’t say something like, “sorry, that isn’t the kind of game we’re interested in building”, but rather say, or imply, “you’re wrong and you don’t understand the game and our vision”.
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Feb 9, 2019 10:13
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quote:Well, I guess i'm just saying a lot of the new content is good so I wouldn't wanna throw it all under the rug.
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Feb 9, 2019 10:59
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Heithinn Grasida posted:I usually stand in a moderate position on how much the dev team sucks and how much they’re ruining the game, but this perfectly encapsulates one of the things I find most frustrating about the way development is handled now. Even if gammafunk’s position that “mutations aren’t dangerous” is 100% true, his statement is still ridiculous. I actually don’t feel too bothered by malmutate, especially in Zot, but I can recognize that outside of a certain limited group of players, negative mutations, even when they don’t damage your chance of victory much, feel bad. Getting an awesome set of positive mutations feels good. I don’t think I need to cite much evidence to support that. It’s common sense and the way a very large number of people play the game makes it extremely clear. It reminds me of the old tradition of the thread that literally drove me away from crawl or commenting in the thread of someone complaining about getting shanked by something really dumb and the devs stopping in to condescendingly tell them if they had only seen this one item fifty floors ago that they might not have even had money for in a shop they could have purchased it and it would have completely fixed everything because RNG doesn't exist in their condescending lecture. It made me straight up quit Crawl.
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Feb 9, 2019 11:42
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Internet Kraken posted:Why even focus so much on stuff like that? Why constantly rework systems people are enjoying while ignoring the stuff everyone agrees still sucks? I don't get it. they dont have any new ideas, arent interested in putting in the work required to fix current issues that only affect a small portion of the playerbase*, and dont want to let anybody else touch their baby * (small because those issues and the community awareness of such end up actively discouraging people from attempting the content at all lmao)
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Feb 9, 2019 12:16
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make mockery posted:they dont have any new ideas, arent interested in putting in the work required to fix current issues that only affect a small portion of the playerbase*, and dont want to let anybody else touch their baby It's a common problem for this kind of long-running development project, especially the type that starts as a niche interest and then becomes a runaway success.
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Feb 9, 2019 12:23
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make mockery posted:they dont have any new ideas, arent interested in putting in the work required to fix current issues that only affect a small portion of the playerbase*, and dont want to let anybody else touch their baby I wonder if someone tried to push a commit to remove Hell Glow if they would even allow it. Like, I can't think of any objective reason it should still exist other than nobody bothering to remove it. What grounds would there be for it to stay? i can't think of any. Can anyone just submit code? I have no idea how Crawl development even works. I just know every time I've tried making a suggestion its never been seriously considered.
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Feb 9, 2019 13:38
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join us
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Feb 9, 2019 15:06
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Mainline Crawl has a fair mix of outright gains to go along with the outright befuddlements---but between Gooncrawl and bcrawl the overall scene hasn't been this lively since Hellcrawl and Circus Animal Variation briefly burned brightly, the latter being Particularly Out There in terms of stepping back from curation and slaughtering/mutating much of what had been.
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Feb 9, 2019 15:11
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I really want to take the engine of DCSS and then put an entirely new 'top layer' (classes, monsters, areas, the quest etc) on top of it. Shame I am code allergic and also, very stupid
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Feb 9, 2019 16:43
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I'd say all of the changes have been universally positive, and that folding curemut, benemut, and purple chunks in to potions of mutation made the mutation system a lot more engaging. The problem is more the things they haven't been willing to change, like teleportitis, berserkitis, and extended.
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Feb 10, 2019 00:52
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Any change that removes purple chunks as a thing you can just get and eat is a bad one
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Feb 10, 2019 00:55
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Microcline posted:I'd say all of the changes have been universally positive, and that folding curemut, benemut, and purple chunks in to potions of mutation made the mutation system a lot more engaging. Really disagree with that. All rolling all the potions together did was make mutations even less of something you should engage with. Cause now that you can't just use cure mut to purge your system, the odds of ending up with mutations you don't want is higher. Also benemut being gone removes the fun of getting a positive mutation, even if statistically its impact is minor. The whole mutation thing is a good example of the devs going with something that seems better mechanically but just feels worse. People had fun with purple eating but didn't like the way malmutate worked. So the devs responded by making it easier to get rid of mutations but harder to have fun with them. It was always a "bad" choice to eat purple but it was fun, and it didn't feel like you were gimping yourself because you had a dedicated option for cleaning yourself out. Now you just get a few minor mutations sloshing through your body as you chug mutation to get rid of the bad ones. The fact that every mutation has 3 tiers is barely relevant now. You'll never see them in the majority of games because of how mutation potions work. But devs don't seem to care how fun or bad something feels because that's not something you can objectively measure in numbers. Like the new trap system in 0.23 is okay, but it feels really lovely to go down the stairs and instantly get teleported before you can gather your bearings. Also apparently you can end up triggering a trap without even moving, which is just silly. But when I tried to talk about how crummy this felt the devs didn't even care.
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Feb 10, 2019 02:46
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Well, that trap system on exploration is silly. It can occur at any point you reveal a new floor tile and the chance is [1 + absoluteDepth / 10] out of 9 * numberOfOpenSpaces on that level. AbsoluteDepth maxes out at 72 IIRC. Levels that are valid are any direct connection to the Dungeon levels excluding the Temple, Pan is also valid. Thus smaller levels are more dangerous and the HOM will want to reveal as many floor squares as possible or take up worship of Ashenzari (they are immune to it). After that, it rolls a 1 (SHAFT), 2 (ALARM) or 3 (TELEPORT). - Shafting cannot occur where invalid and it does not roll for an attempt again. Branch ends and Pan are a third less dangerous automatically. - Alarm does not occur for the first three floors BUT it will always succeed in Marking you, marginalizing Stealth as a defense option. - Teleport always works. So I'm not seeing why this is a good move as it doesn't change the random nature of traps as before, just amplifying the effects that are out of the player's control. Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 03:44
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quote:The whole mutation thing is a good example of the devs going with something that seems better mechanically but just feels worse.
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Feb 10, 2019 10:35
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Wasn't aware of this exploration trap thing. It sounds a bit over-the-top to be honest; it does make some sense mechanically, in that traps had mostly become a non-issue outside of certain places like Zot and Tomb, and this forces you to occasionally deal with traps and creates dangerous situations for you to navigate. But ha, man, the complete gently caress-you of 'you revealed some more tiles, have a non-resistable trap effect' is crazy. So your stealthy-ish early game nerd hides out next to a vault feature that's generating clouds obscuring vision while you heal up from a fight, the clouds clear a little, revealing some tiles, and then gently caress you it's just go-time again? Hahaha. I'm sure that ramps up the tension for players who are already good at the game, but what happened to being transparent with the player, or not randomly loving them over? I mean, getting randomly struck with invisible non-resistable effects you can't mitigate much before-hand is one of the worst parts of hell, and they wanted to port a little of the essence of THAT to the main dungeon crawl? Not every game is to everyone's taste, so I'm not saying it's objectively a bad thing, but man, that does feel like a step away from creating a friendly new-player experience, which I always kind of felt was one of Crawl's strengths as a roguelike. I guess there's other games that fill that niche better now, so, godspeed, Trunk.
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Feb 10, 2019 14:00
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I really do wonder how hard it is for new players to pick up Crawl now. On one hand the UI has come a long way and a lot of obscure, weird mechanics have been expunged. On the other hand, the game has been made significantly harder and a lot more punishing. Either way I thin the way the traps work now really makes no sense. If they wanna create the illussion that you're exploring the dungeon and stepping on traps they need to actually have it tied to movement. But the devs told me that would be "inconsistent" and that anything that reveals a tile should trigger a trap. But as you said, that just creates weird meta knowledge needed about the system to know not to rest near any opaque dungeon features.
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Feb 10, 2019 14:18
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What are the dev arguments for the trap change? I’ve only seen one side of the discussion so far, but it seems pretty head scratching to me. For one, from the player’s perspective, it makes sense for traps to be something you can detect and imagine as an actual object in the game, not just a random chance for something to trigger when tiles are revealed. Second, I always thought one major purpose of traps was to force you to interact with terrain in unusual ways, for example even if you’re not in danger of stepping on to that zot trap over there, you still don’t want the enemies to, or you could lure scary melee enemies in the early game on to teleport traps
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Feb 10, 2019 14:29
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quote:For one, from the player’s perspective, it makes sense for traps to be something you can detect and imagine as an actual object in the game So the obvious thing to do, of course, is to put them back in, but make it even more arbitrary and obnoxious. This is the kind of thing you only do if you have your head so far up your own rear end you can lick your tonsils.
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Feb 10, 2019 14:59
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Getting rid of traps and doors as an arbitrary experience tax on all characters was a great move. Same with removing damage traps that were harmless to high level characters but would randomly kill you instantly in the early game with no warning. Those were legitimately bad. From the descriptions posted here, I don’t think the devs brought the bad traps back. I imagine the reasoning was something like, “traps are only interesting when you step on them, players will never step on a revealed trap, and eventually you reveal all traps before you step on them, so lets make it so traps are never revealed and their effects are just things that can randomly happen to the player when they explore.” I don’t really agree with that, but I don’t know if that’s the actual motivation behind the change, either.
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Feb 10, 2019 15:09
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Heithinn Grasida posted:What are the dev arguments for the trap change? I’ve only seen one side of the discussion so far, but it seems pretty head scratching to me. For one, from the player’s perspective, it makes sense for traps to be something you can detect and imagine as an actual object in the game, not just a random chance for something to trigger when tiles are revealed. Second, I always thought one major purpose of traps was to force you to interact with terrain in unusual ways, for example even if you’re not in danger of stepping on to th at zot trap over there, you still don’t want the enemies to, or you could lure scary melee enemies in the early game on to teleport traps I really liked the tasks setup before of tele, holes and alarms because they were static and if you noticed them you could use them. It was a cool evolution of "gently caress traps" to hmmm if I cause an alarm take these states and then run to the fart stairs I can easily Dodge this scary unique. Or using telescope as a nice static get outta jail
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Feb 10, 2019 15:13
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Imho traps that relocate you be it by shafting or Tele should have a chance to spawn a beneficial, otherwise inaccessible vault with good loot or shop in it and shove you into it.
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Feb 10, 2019 15:16
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Teal posted:Imho traps that relocate you be it by shafting or Tele should have a chance to spawn a beneficial, otherwise inaccessible vault with good loot or shop in it and shove you into it. That sounds like fun. Fun is not competitive.
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Feb 10, 2019 16:45
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Internet Kraken posted:Really disagree with that. All rolling all the potions together did was make mutations even less of something you should engage with. Cause now that you can't just use cure mut to purge your system, the odds of ending up with mutations you don't want is higher. Also benemut being gone removes the fun of getting a positive mutation, even if statistically its impact is minor. That's what I initially thought as well. But then I found that the change made me more likely to roll for mutation on characters. Potions of mutation are strongly weighted towards good mutations meaning it's often a good idea to drink one or two early on most builds. Purple chunks were fun but it was mostly a "gently caress it this is a joke character" thing because the 50/50 weighting means you're more likely to gently caress up your character than get something complementary. The change also deals with the problem that curemut was rare , which frequently became an issue in extended. But yeah it doesn't fix the problems that later mutation tiers are rarely accessed or that teleportitis and berserkitis are wildly out of line with other negative traits.
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Feb 10, 2019 18:05
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quote:Potions of mutation are strongly weighted towards good mutations meaning it's often a good idea to drink one or two early on most builds. Bit of a gambler's fallacy thing, maybe, but it matters to how I play.
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Feb 10, 2019 19:07
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Just wanted to say thanks for the Gooncrawl fork; I've been enjoying it quite a bit lately (particularly the summon XP change, been having a lot of fun trying to get a Mummy Summoner going). The last time I played seriously was years ago, and it's been great to revisit the game. I do have a question, though. What happened to the Enchanted Forest? I always liked it as an alternative to Crypt, but it seems to have been removed. Does anyone know why, and is there any interest in resurrecting it?
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Feb 10, 2019 20:02
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JfishPirate posted:Just wanted to say thanks for the Gooncrawl fork; I've been enjoying it quite a bit lately (particularly the summon XP change, been having a lot of fun trying to get a Mummy Summoner going). The last time I played seriously was years ago, and it's been great to revisit the game. I think the forest (and the enchantress) still exists as a partial floor vault in the depths. I’m not sure if it spawns every run though.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:39
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JfishPirate posted:Just wanted to say thanks for the Gooncrawl fork; I've been enjoying it quite a bit lately (particularly the summon XP change, been having a lot of fun trying to get a Mummy Summoner going). The last time I played seriously was years ago, and it's been great to revisit the game. Forest got cut because it was more annoying than challenging as a replacement for Crypt, but all the new monsters from it got taken out and scattered across the rest of the game. That, plus some Forest-themed vaults for Depths with the Enchantress taken from the end vaults of Forest helped cover the gaps of all the new content.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:53
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What was the Forest like, anyway? I never even got to see it before it was removed again. I'm guessing it's not like ADOM's.
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Feb 10, 2019 21:08
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can we remove swamp please
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Feb 10, 2019 21:11
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Beamed posted:Is there an issue with Gooncrawl on Webtiles and saves? Was playing CPO last night, logged in today and my save is entirely gone. I dunno if this got fixed for you, but just logged in and uh, Gooncrawl is gone from CPO. Is there a tournament or something going off? That's how much I've been paying attention, I know the forks sometimes fall off in tournament time. Mind, the other forks all look to still be there.
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Feb 11, 2019 00:06
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Cardiovorax posted:What was the Forest like, anyway? I never even got to see it before it was removed again. I'm guessing it's not like ADOM's. I played it a few times. It didn't feel particularly different than Lair and/or a Lair branch, which is why so many of its denizens got scaled back a bit and put there. The rest of them pretty much ended up in Depths or Cocytus. Probably the biggest impact was going from a place with no food but lots of undead (which could change how much piety you got there) to a place with lots of food and no real undead/evil enemies. So without Crypt it was a little harder to swap to TSO and piety up for extended, but if you were a Trog bro, you could just go "sweet, something more worthwhile to tab at". It wasn't all that meaningful and I wish I missed it more than I do.  Wolfechu posted:I dunno if this got fixed for you, but just logged in and uh, Gooncrawl is gone from CPO. Is there a tournament or something going off? That's how much I've been paying attention, I know the forks sometimes fall off in tournament time. There is, indeed, a 0.23 tournament on now. I'm even running a team and sort of half-heartedly trying to put a win or two on the board, because, heck, I still like trying to be competitive.
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Feb 11, 2019 00:36
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ZeeToo posted:There is, indeed, a 0.23 tournament on now. I'm even running a team and sort of half-heartedly trying to put a win or two on the board, because, heck, I still like trying to be competitive. If you have space, I'll join in and give you a bunch of VS 15-runers.
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Feb 11, 2019 01:29
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Wolfechu posted:I dunno if this got fixed for you, but just logged in and uh, Gooncrawl is gone from CPO. Is there a tournament or something going off? That's how much I've been paying attention, I know the forks sometimes fall off in tournament time. Yeah, was coming in today to note the same. Not sure what's going on, but CXO(?) has Gooncrawl fine still, not sure if it posts scores though.
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Feb 11, 2019 01:43
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