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Dijkstracula posted:be careful of the one pitfall of that scenario, where both companies livelock themselves waiting for the other to give you an offer for them to counter lol this is not a thing, unless their HR groups (illegally!) collude with one another (in which case, it doesn't matter what you do! you were hosed before you started!)
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Feb 11, 2019 07:00
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Ciaphas posted:For sake of discussion, how long can you sit on a potential or even formal offer of employment? (i know the real answer is 'it varies', i just don't know how much--same drat job for 10 years and all) there is no kind or reasonable amount of time to sit on an offer the reasonable thing to do is to communicate what you, personally, have in mind
the important thing is to set expectations don't leave some poor fucker imagining you're gonna say "yes" -- give'em a date, or give'em a counter-offer, or both
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Feb 11, 2019 07:05
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this thread has sadly grown relevant to yours truly after five years i have got a poo poo raise from a boss who has the political instincts of a toddler, so i have no way to actually fix the poor bastard now i have got to do my least favorite thing -- work up a new resume on the bright side, after that, i get to do the thing i most like in this horrible industry -- interview for jobs! the most fun part of a job. the part you do before you actually have it.
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Feb 11, 2019 07:08
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:there is no kind or reasonable amount of time to sit on an offer thanks for the advice. what would you change re: waiting for other offers if the other company is indeed a direct competitor? i literally have no idea what the social dynamics here are lmao
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Feb 11, 2019 07:48
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if you tell them the direct competitor you are waiting on it'll make them sweat (a good thing) and also give them notice to prepare a counter-offer
qhat fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 08:52
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at my first job in 2001 we had a candidate who accepted an offer from us where we beat an offer candidate got elsewhere. candidate took that back to convince them to increase their offer, then brought their increased offer to us so we would increase our offer my boss at the time was like “uh it’s not an auction” and rescinded the offer so maybe don’t do anything quite that brazen... even though if capitalists actually practiced what they preached all hiring would work like this
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Feb 11, 2019 10:56
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Cold on a Cob posted:at my first job in 2001 we had a candidate who accepted an offer from us where we beat an offer candidate got elsewhere. candidate took that back to convince them to increase their offer, then brought their increased offer to us so we would increase our offer it totally is an auction
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Feb 11, 2019 11:03
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capitalism is great and the only/best way to do things until it doesn't benefit them. then it's like "wow this candidate is so rude, doesn't he know he's dealing with actual people with feelings here?"
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Feb 11, 2019 11:15
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Symbolic Butt posted:capitalism is great and the only/best way to do things until it doesn't benefit them. then it's like "wow this candidate is so rude, doesn't he know he's dealing with actual people with feelings here?" yep, exactly when the worker stands to benefit, then it becomes a matter of  this reminds me, don't be fully honest with recruiters either. we had a candidate who accepted an offer with my current employer then told the recruiter he was interviewing at a job across the road from his condo, and expected they would make an offer in a month or so and he would then quit with us. recruiter told my boss because we're trying to fill 10+ positions with her so OF COURSE she doesn't want to piss my employer off. my boss rescinded the offer immediately. so yeah be mercenary as gently caress but don't be HONEST about it 
Cold on a Cob fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 12:29
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lol whoops  nah, i'm not that brazen. really i have a hard time telling even white lies and am blindingly obvious about it--which sounds like me being all virtuous but trust me it's a pain in the rear end
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Feb 11, 2019 16:27
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These are learnable skills just like technical ones. No one came fresh from the womb knowing how to code or blarney your way into some dollar dollar bills.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:55
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Cold on a Cob posted:at my first job in 2001 we had a candidate who accepted an offer from us where we beat an offer candidate got elsewhere. candidate took that back to convince them to increase their offer, then brought their increased offer to us so we would increase our offer There's a difference between accepting an offer and continuing to interview, and saying maybe while being forthcoming on what the hold up is. Also, it sounds like the candidate still got the best deal? If you guys didn't want to compete with other companies for candidates then that's fine, but you probably spent another month interviewing if you didn't have a backup.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:56
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Boiled Water posted:it totally is an auction
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Feb 11, 2019 18:04
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Cold on a Cob posted:at my first job in 2001 we had a candidate who accepted an offer from us where we beat an offer candidate got elsewhere. candidate took that back to convince them to increase their offer, then brought their increased offer to us so we would increase our offer your boss is dumb, and the candidate got paid more
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Feb 11, 2019 18:12
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did y'all miss the fact it was 2001? people weren't getting a shitload of offers, especially in Calgary, Alberta. i wouldn't be surprised if he was lying to my boss and burnt himself. we just went with the next candidate (who i really liked working with incidentally).
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Feb 11, 2019 18:13
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Ciaphas posted:thanks for the advice. what would you change re: waiting for other offers if the other company is indeed a direct competitor? i literally have no idea what the social dynamics here are lmao nothing? a direct competitor only makes it better
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Feb 11, 2019 18:13
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Cold on a Cob posted:did y'all miss the fact it was 2001? 2001 was the hottest job market for tech up until today... salaries didn't reach 2001 levels until this year calgary is just a really lovely job market. but i guess you knew that already, didn't you?
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Feb 11, 2019 18:14
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:2001 was the hottest job market for tech up until today... salaries didn't reach 2001 levels until this year the hottest job market for tech was during the dot-com bubble crash? news to me
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Feb 11, 2019 18:16
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Cold on a Cob posted:the hottest job market for tech was during the dot-com bubble crash? yes in other unsurprising news, humidity tends to be highest when it is raining, and the highest daytime temperatures are typically found at sunset
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Feb 11, 2019 18:22
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There wasn't a poo poo load of job offers going around, but yet this candidate was able to pull in not one, not two, but three simultaneous job offers. And your company immediately turned this guy down.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:26
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:yes sure in 1999 at the beginning i would assume that, but i remember reading about a lot of people taking paycuts to keep their job or getting laid off because their employer didn't exist anymore by 2001 (this was late 2001) and to be clear i mean poo poo i read online, though calgary in particular was doing rough in 2001 because nortel was making GBS threads the bed around then
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Feb 11, 2019 18:26
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FMguru posted:it was, and one of the bidders dropped out when the price got too high interestingly the reverse is also true, where you leave your job or offer because its dog poo poo
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Feb 11, 2019 18:28
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qhat posted:There wasn't a poo poo load of job offers going around, but yet this candidate was able to pull in not one, not two, but three simultaneous job offers. And your company immediately turned this guy down. no, he had a single offer from a company, we beat it, he took our offer back to them and they upped their offer, he came back to us to get us to beat this new offer, and my boss rescinded the offer y'all are missing the point of the anecdote, which is managers are hypocrites and capitalism will gently caress you if you're not the one with the capital so do be a bit careful FMguru posted:it was, and one of the bidders dropped out when the price got too high except if the other offer fell through then the backup (us) was no longer on the table, we moved on and hired someone else e: also just saying, all of the advice given to ciaphis is spot on, none of this has anything to do with that
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Feb 11, 2019 18:30
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Cold on a Cob posted:sure in 1999 at the beginning i would assume that, but i remember reading about a lot of people taking paycuts to keep their job or getting laid off because their employer didn't exist anymore by 2001 (this was late 2001) it took literally three years for the crash to unfold it should not surprise you that peak industry wages were in the first year of the crash Cold on a Cob posted:and to be clear i mean poo poo i read online, though calgary in particular was doing rough in 2001 because nortel was making GBS threads the bed around then calgary was never a hot market for software developers. i don't know why i have to tell you this: a third tier city in the frozen north is not a major market for software jobs i can't imagine that losing canada's "national champion" in like 100 fields of technology was a great win tho
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Feb 11, 2019 18:31
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:2001 was the hottest job market for tech up until today... salaries didn't reach 2001 levels until this year wait- really? link?
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Feb 11, 2019 18:32
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:it took literally three years for the crash to unfold right but the crash started in 1999 and we're talking late 2001 also i already acknowledged calgary local market conditions don't really have bearing here, i'm now just responding to your assertion that 2001 tech salaries, in general, were at their peak. i'd really love a source on this.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:34
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nasdaq peaked in february 2000; by march 2001 it had lost almost 2/3rds of that value https://www.macrotrends.net/1320/nasdaq-historical-chart
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Feb 11, 2019 18:36
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Cold on a Cob posted:except if the other offer fell through then the backup (us) was no longer on the table, we moved on and hired someone else
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Feb 11, 2019 18:38
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:calgary was never a hot market for software developers. i don't know why i have to tell you this: a third tier city in the frozen north is not a major market for software jobs oh i missed how you wrote this. i already acknowledged that the local market was poo poo hence I was referring to stuff i was reading online as in NOT local data. thanks for the patronizing tone though, fucker
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Feb 11, 2019 18:39
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FMguru posted:so he managed to turn two firm offers in to zero jobs? wow nah i was speculating idk what happened to the guy vOv he probably wasn't lying and had a good offer but i mean, it was 2001 so not like i remember or was in any position to actually know
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Feb 11, 2019 18:40
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I mean if you turned him down because he was dishonest (if he actually accepted your offer and then reneged, this is definitely dishonest) then that is perfectly fine. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, this was still an auction and always was.
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Feb 11, 2019 18:47
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Cold on a Cob posted:right but the crash started in 1999 and we're talking late 2001 i would cite the bls but it's down lol 
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Feb 11, 2019 18:54
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qhat posted:I mean if you turned him down because he was dishonest (if he actually accepted your offer and then reneged, this is definitely dishonest) then that is perfectly fine. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, this was still an auction and always was. except my boss filled the job no problem so was it really an auction? don't get me wrong, i do wish that salary negotiation was a system where companies bid on you but of course if that's how the labour market worked there would absolutely be collusion by capital the day that poo poo went live
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Feb 11, 2019 19:03
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This morning I got a call from a recruiter saying they were putting me forward for a role, then fast forward a few hours and I get an email directly from that company saying "we saw your github" for that same role I applaud their effort to avoid recruiter fees, but I'm not sure I want to engage with a company that does shady poo poo like that Or maybe that recruiter somehow found out they were planning on emailing me and jumped in first? A+ scam if so, but I think the simpler hypothesis is more likely gonadic io fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 19:06
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lol either way that's a good way to burn a relationship and i'm extremely curious which party did it
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Feb 11, 2019 19:13
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this thread has sadly grown relevant to yours truly I just recall you saying that you're not going to take a job that requires you to fill out a form on the internet to apply, and I'm hoping to get updates about how that goes because I don't know how avoidable that is aside from just getting someone to put a word in for you (which is the way I got my last 4 jobs so I don't know how it goes anymore but I'm expecting a lot of forms and linkedins).
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Feb 11, 2019 19:29
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qhat posted:I mean if you turned him down because he was dishonest (if he actually accepted your offer and then reneged, this is definitely dishonest) then that is perfectly fine. But let's not get ahead of ourselves, this was still an auction and always was. We will absolutely rescind an offer if you accept then come back saying you've got a better one. We're happy to negotiate around what the offer is, but if you accept it then we call it done. We're not so desperate that we need to get into the world of offers and counter offers etc. Our offer is always money for 37 hours a week as well though which doesn't do it for some folk.
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Feb 11, 2019 19:45
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MononcQc posted:I just recall you saying that you're not going to take a job that requires you to fill out a form on the internet to apply, and I'm hoping to get updates about how that goes because I don't know how avoidable that is aside from just getting someone to put a word in for you (which is the way I got my last 4 jobs so I don't know how it goes anymore but I'm expecting a lot of forms and linkedins). never done it before, not going to start now of course unlike a lot of posters in this thread i'm not allergic to recruiters, either
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Feb 11, 2019 19:55
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Aramoro posted:We will absolutely rescind an offer if you accept then come back saying you've got a better one. We're happy to negotiate around what the offer is, but if you accept it then we call it done. We're not so desperate that we need to get into the world of offers and counter offers etc. Our offer is always money for 37 hours a week as well though which doesn't do it for some folk. so y'all are sore-assed losers, then i see
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Feb 11, 2019 19:56
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pro tip: if the candidate didn't genuinely prefer you, they would not have solicited a counter-offer passing up motivated talent because you're butthurt doesn't seem like a great negotiating tactic, but, hey, whatever floats your boat
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Feb 11, 2019 19:57
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