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Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

Internet Kraken posted:

Zin gives you immunity to mutation at max piety though, so random mutations aren't an issue. You're never gonna not be at max piety when following Zin late game as well since you can just pay more of your otherwise useless gold to make him love you forever.
That kind of really only works in favor of the change, though - the only mutations you'll even be getting are when you're too far from an altar and your piety drops to five stars for a while. A few small cures would be far more helpful than a single big one in those cases. (Also, shout-out to my autocorrect for translating piety drops as pretty dogs.)

I mean, you're right, having both abilities wouldn't really be overpowered. If I had to pick, though, I'd prefer having the new version.

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Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
You don't need to be at an altar to get Zin piety. You just drop gold right out of your pocket into his magic donation bucket.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
Alright then. Sorry, that used to be a thing and I haven't really used him lately.

Shady Amish Terror
Oct 11, 2007
I'm not Amish by choice. 8(

Floodkiller posted:

Speaking of, I would like to ask again for feedback on permabuff power levels from anyone who has messed with them. Are any of the current MP reservation rates (only reserves the spell level's worth of MP) too low for the power they give? If they are, any pushes for specific ways to make them higher?

Might vary by the spell? I love how they work now, it's so much less of a hassle, but it does become kind of a no-brainer to pick up RMsl and Regen for anyone who has any business casting any spells at all.

This makes their presence in Trunk even more hilarious, because it implies a large part of the balancing mechanism for them is just tedium.

The only idea that readily comes to my mind is making them only be sustained if you keep their miscast rate sufficiently low, though that is a bit abstruse and would need to be reflected in their spell description. That would also create the weird threat that getting confused, sapped, anti-magic'd, or stat-drained at the wrong time could cause your buffs to go onto the failure timer, which is an interesting and dynamic challenge, but also a huge pain in the rear end on the relatively rare occasions it ever came up. Unsure, perhaps this is why I don't design games. :v:

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

Jon Joe posted:

I played around with a fighter type character I usually do and it was pretty trivial to cast every permabuff by equipping two rings of wizardry and then unequipping them. The only one I needed to train for was Ring of Fire.

Also, hello again! I could not for the life of me figure out how to rebase my commits for the abomination species, so I've just done away with the pull request until and unless people start clamoring for that silly 8-ring full armor badman species.

In other news, I think I'll try my hand at some unrandart changes and additions. At minimum I want to add the change from the main branch that turned the Vampire's Tooth from a +4 dagger of vampirism to a +12 quick blade of vampirism.

Without looking at your branch at all, try merging gooncrawl_master (or w/e) into your branch. Rebase is the devil if you’ve pushed.

redneck nazgul
Apr 25, 2013

ZeeToo posted:

I've got you added, and you haven't shown up, and I gave it some time, and I still don't see you, so... :shrug:

Doublecheck that your 0.23 RC file says this as its first line:

# TEAMCAPTAIN ZeeToo

I threw it in there, I don't know why it's not showing up.

make mockery
Jan 31, 2019

Jon Joe posted:

I played around with a fighter type character I usually do and it was pretty trivial to cast every permabuff by equipping two rings of wizardry and then unequipping them. The only one I needed to train for was Ring of Fire.

Also, hello again! I could not for the life of me figure out how to rebase my commits for the abomination species, so I've just done away with the pull request until and unless people start clamoring for that silly 8-ring full armor badman species.

In other news, I think I'll try my hand at some unrandart changes and additions. At minimum I want to add the change from the main branch that turned the Vampire's Tooth from a +4 dagger of vampirism to a +12 quick blade of vampirism.

give people a chance at a miscast effect each turn an enemy is in site when wearing ring armour or heavier :getin:

jon joe hit me up on the discord ill help you out w the rebase

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005

恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー

Jester Mcgee posted:

The most problematic thing I noticed about permabuffs was that I could put on armor that was a little too heavy for me. For example, I could put on chain mail in the beginning of the game and have a 50% or so chance to cast my buffs, then I would just cast them as many times as it took to get them up, then I had them forever. I don't have any input into how to fix it, but I felt scummy while I was doing it.

It's funny to me. I'm not the guy doing any code so my opinion is just background noise, but I always thought that the most obvious way to implement perma-buffs was just to auto-recast them as a free action upon expiring. Basically like Tengu and their flight. Solves that whole issue above; either you can keep the spell up, or you can't. The downside of doing this exactly is oddities with your mana getting used randomly, but then just docking max mana instead as implemented kinda solves that.

My 2c.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo

Jester Mcgee posted:

The most problematic thing I noticed about permabuffs was that I could put on armor that was a little too heavy for me. For example, I could put on chain mail in the beginning of the game and have a 50% or so chance to cast my buffs, then I would just cast them as many times as it took to get them up, then I had them forever. I don't have any input into how to fix it, but I felt scummy while I was doing it.

Imho just divide the reservation cost by the success rate; 90% success rate increases reservation by 10%, 50% success rate doubles it, 10% success rate increases it tenfold. In theory you end up at the same amount of mana spent to get it up. If that still feels too strong because you're still not compensating for the turns wasted and miscast effects, I think you could just add a chance on each action to put a miscast effect onto you, or to make you spend the turn struggling with your buffs (no extra input necessary, just "you spent a while fumbling with your magic...")

Cynic Jester
Apr 11, 2009

Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

Teal posted:

Imho just divide the reservation cost by the success rate; 90% success rate increases reservation by 10%, 50% success rate doubles it, 10% success rate increases it tenfold. In theory you end up at the same amount of mana spent to get it up. If that still feels too strong because you're still not compensating for the turns wasted and miscast effects, I think you could just add a chance on each action to put a miscast effect onto you, or to make you spend the turn struggling with your buffs (no extra input necessary, just "you spent a while fumbling with your magic...")

Cost increases I'm down with, particularly increasing costs as miscast rate gets higher. Random "You get hosed now" not so much. Especially if it still happens at lower miscast rares, just more rarely.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
This makes sense. I wonder if it would be possible to have the costs go up dynamically even after casting? And then have them fizzle out if it goes past your mp max. That would solve exploits like stacking +casting rings to permabuff yourself with things you ought not to be able to sustain anymore.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo
Can anyone share their good tryhard rc files? I finally bothered to compile from source on Windows Linux and I'm too lazy to look up how to make autoexplore and waiting instant, autobutcher, sane health limits, that nifty "skill screen pops up automatically" etc..

Hooplah
Jul 15, 2006


How come I don't see anyone else on x-crawl playing gooncrawl? Is everyone compiling their own and playing offline? Is there another server I'm not aware of?

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo
I'd play on X-Crawl but it doesn't have permabuffs (or at least not infusion) yet :smith:

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

Just tried and effort-failed to play a new game on CBRO. Devs if you're reading: keymaps should be in the RC file. I'm loving tired of remapping keys for the Nth time every time someone decides to patch-bump the version number. (Also semantic versioning is a thing, give it a shot.)

E: That was at mainline devs.

Scaramouche
Mar 26, 2001

SPACE FACE! SPACE FACE!

Hooplah posted:

How come I don't see anyone else on x-crawl playing gooncrawl? Is everyone compiling their own and playing offline? Is there another server I'm not aware of?

Tournament is on so that's where most people be at until it ends

Infinite Monkeys
Jul 18, 2010

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Played over 100 games for the tournament, and wow, I see why everyone's pissed off with the main branch now. Mutations are bullshit, unavoidable mark traps are loving bullshit. Switching to gooncrawl after the tournament, I think.

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

Forgot to work on a weekend update after finishing my taxes, I'll try to get one out tomorrow thanks to the power of federal holidays.

Edit: Monday Gooncrawl update - Hell effects will now end with the death of the Hell lord (per branch).

Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Feb 18, 2019

Hooplah
Jul 15, 2006


I've been running a HEAM^Oka that's been such an absolute grind. Not a single bow upgrade until I met Nessos in Orc and took his longbow. I finished Lair, Orc and down to first level of depths, and have found one single spellbook (it had confuse! hooray) Not a single bow gift from Oka, which isn't as big a deal now that I have the longbow. No wearable randart armor or jewelry.

Lair was very painful. Anything even slightly threatening (yaks and above, basically) I had to pull away individually and confuse, then spend like 30 turns needling them with a +0 shortbow.

make mockery
Jan 31, 2019
the secret power strat to arcane marksman is to play it like its a hunter for the early game

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

Mid-week Gooncrawl update:
-Added Skeleton species (by Steel Neuron, with tiles by Metoron). Rattle and self-mesmerize your way into constant fights to the death!
-Changed the species select menu to make room for more species (since the current three categories are close to overflow).
-Found some disabled code that said Sludge Elves were originally set to start with blonde hair, so I re-enabled it for kicks. I can disable it again if anyone really cares.
-Banned undead from being priests (I choose to blame you all for not bringing this up, instead of myself for forgetting).

Gonna make a species poll soon for Abominations and a bunch of ones that Tollymain created (as well as a pull request for a Riposte change). Species are relatively quick to add, which might make up for how slow development pace is currently going.

Teal posted:

Imho just divide the reservation cost by the success rate; 90% success rate increases reservation by 10%, 50% success rate doubles it, 10% success rate increases it tenfold. In theory you end up at the same amount of mana spent to get it up. If that still feels too strong because you're still not compensating for the turns wasted and miscast effects, I think you could just add a chance on each action to put a miscast effect onto you, or to make you spend the turn struggling with your buffs (no extra input necessary, just "you spent a while fumbling with your magic...")

Just quoting one from this discussion, but the way I implemented it doesn't mix well with a per-spell success rate check: it adds/subtracts from a total MP reserved on casting the spell, instead of based on what the current success rate is (like Hellcrawl). This is because Hellcrawl makes each permabuff something that has to be checked at the beginning of each turn, and I didn't want to too much stuff to the game like that in case it starts slowing stuff down as I add more garbage code. I can try and come up with some formula based on Encumbrance Rating/Armor Skill/Spellcasting to apply a multiplier to the total MP reserved to have something similar, since that's probably easier than testing out balanced static reservation numbers for each permabuff.

Shady Amish Terror
Oct 11, 2007
I'm not Amish by choice. 8(
Hahaha, shiiiit, I didn't know you could actually die to a mummy's curse. For some reason, I had it in my mind that it was functionally identical to torment and couldn't actually kill you. Well. Lesson learned!

Oh, huh. Torment resistance is what resists that effect, but the damage is fixed. I may have been half-remembering things from years ago and rightly died. It's still pretty great having a high score list with one failure, one win, and at the top, one dumb zig-raider who died to a mummy curse, which I can't imagine is a common epitaph.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo

Floodkiller posted:

Just quoting one from this discussion, but the way I implemented it doesn't mix well with a per-spell success rate check: it adds/subtracts from a total MP reserved on casting the spell, instead of based on what the current success rate is (like Hellcrawl). This is because Hellcrawl makes each permabuff something that has to be checked at the beginning of each turn, and I didn't want to too much stuff to the game like that in case it starts slowing stuff down as I add more garbage code. I can try and come up with some formula based on Encumbrance Rating/Armor Skill/Spellcasting to apply a multiplier to the total MP reserved to have something similar, since that's probably easier than testing out balanced static reservation numbers for each permabuff.

I'm not sure I understand.

Adding encumb drops your buffs anyway; there's no need to check it every turn (I think wild magic fails to drop them but that seems like a fairly minor and hard to exploit circumstances so I'd ignore that). I haven't yet looked into crawl code structure yet (even though I do C++ and it's only a question of me no longer being loving lazy piece of poo poo) but I'd presume that when casting the spell, you can apply a debuff (which could be a separate entity from the spell effect itself) and determine the the actual mana penalty to apply on basis of the current failure rate of the spell, or is the spell failure badly accessible in the logic of the casting time? I mean, the game displays it in the interface on multiple points even between turns so surely it has to be accessible somehow?

Feel entitled to call me a dipshit to do it myself if I'm so smart, but I'm just struggling to understand the actual issue outside of per-turn checking which does seem unnecessary to me.

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

Teal posted:

I'm not sure I understand.

Adding encumb drops your buffs anyway; there's no need to check it every turn (I think wild magic fails to drop them but that seems like a fairly minor and hard to exploit circumstances so I'd ignore that). I haven't yet looked into crawl code structure yet (even though I do C++ and it's only a question of me no longer being loving lazy piece of poo poo) but I'd presume that when casting the spell, you can apply a debuff (which could be a separate entity from the spell effect itself) and determine the the actual mana penalty to apply on basis of the current failure rate of the spell, or is the spell failure badly accessible in the logic of the casting time? I mean, the game displays it in the interface on multiple points even between turns so surely it has to be accessible somehow?

Feel entitled to call me a dipshit to do it myself if I'm so smart, but I'm just struggling to understand the actual issue outside of per-turn checking which does seem unnecessary to me.

Yes, I could modify it at cast time only, but what about when your spell success rate changes due to things like rings of wizardry, glow, or even just skill training? If I don't put in a per-turn check/adjustment to do it automatically, people are still going to want to drop their permabuffs and recast manually whenever the MP they would have reserved is lowered.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo

Floodkiller posted:

Yes, I could modify it at cast time only, but what about when your spell success rate changes due to things like rings of wizardry, glow, or even just skill training? If I don't put in a per-turn check/adjustment to do it automatically, people are still going to want to drop their permabuffs and recast manually whenever the MP they would have reserved is lowered.

Yeah, that's how I imagined it! Do you think that's that much of a HOM problem?

The issue as I see it is that you can ignore miscast to a point (in the end the pretty much only limits are starvation and contam mut as you desperately try to force that 99% failure through). If you implement MP reserve scaling at cast, people who want their "updated" whole manapool will have to recast once upon a time but it doesn't seem to break permabuffs as a concept to me.

If you think the micromanagement cost of forcing the recast (you're still forced to recast every time you put on body armor or shield anyway?) is too high, I guess you could do a recalcuation every time the character eats or something (I'd just hold the table of permabuffs and current success rates, force them through guaranteed for no cost but apply the appropriate new reserve), so it's not quite every turn but relatively regular.

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
It doesn't need to per turn, though, does it? Wouldn't it be fairly easy to just call the calc function on skill/stat changes and when (de) equipping items? Ought to do the same, but with less overhead. If that doesn't work, simply force-dropping and recasting current sustains on those events seems like it should be possible. Restore mp to previous value afterwards, no muss no fuss.

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

I mean, if nobody says they will be bothered by it, I'll throw it in because I know I'm HOM averse and that's why I put ignoring the HOM as a main goal for Gooncrawl if nobody else actually cares about it.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo
Honestly I'm lot more bothered that every time I put on a shield is a forced recast than it'd bother me if I had the optional benefit of recasting after putting on a Wiz ring, especially because I have to take shield off every time I want to use a ranged weapon that's not thrown/sling/handxbow - I'd actually really like if something could be done about that one, even if not even technically stronger, just less tedious.

How hard would it be to make it possible to swap to a bow without losing the encumb penalty of wearing a shield, while losing the SH rating, and the ability to switch back to my melee (including the shield) without loving around with the two inventory items AND recasting all permabuffs?

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

Teal posted:

Honestly I'm lot more bothered that every time I put on a shield is a forced recast than it'd bother me if I had the optional benefit of recasting after putting on a Wiz ring, especially because I have to take shield off every time I want to use a ranged weapon that's not thrown/sling/handxbow - I'd actually really like if something could be done about that one, even if not even technically stronger, just less tedious.

How hard would it be to make it possible to swap to a bow without losing the encumb penalty of wearing a shield, while losing the SH rating, and the ability to switch back to my melee (including the shield) without loving around with the two inventory items AND recasting all permabuffs?

It would involve reworking player equipment slots to make ranged weapons or shields not conflict while still taking hands, or reworking one or the other to not actually use hands as a slot. Both pretty major.

Alternatively, removing encumbrance penalties from shields would also fix the problem since there would be no point to unequipping/re-equipping one to reduce spellcasting penalties. That's a pretty major buff, though.

Worth putting on the vote list for whenever I get through v2.0 to the next round of feature request voting!

Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.

quote:

That's a pretty major buff, though.
Yeah, probably a bit too much of one. Letting already strong ranged attackers do things like wear a shield of reflection at zero investment cost is pretty heavy.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused
You're not supposed to use shields if you're using longbows/triple crossbows. If you wanna use a shield and have a ranged option there are better options for that.

To me though, a consistent problem with the throwing and slings schools in Crawl is that you have no source of ammunition. If shoals spawns you can get a bunch of sling bullets and javelins from there. If it doesn't spawn you just... don't. Its a weird bit of RNG that can totally change the power of your character. The whole dynamic of the Lair branches is weird in that regard.

Floodkiller
May 31, 2011

Internet Kraken posted:

You're not supposed to use shields if you're using longbows/triple crossbows. If you wanna use a shield and have a ranged option there are better options for that.

To me though, a consistent problem with the throwing and slings schools in Crawl is that you have no source of ammunition. If shoals spawns you can get a bunch of sling bullets and javelins from there. If it doesn't spawn you just... don't. Its a weird bit of RNG that can totally change the power of your character. The whole dynamic of the Lair branches is weird in that regard.

Small rocks work fine for slings once you get a hold of a greatsling (or whatever it's called), and you should probably stop training Slings too hard if you haven't found one by Lair (since normal slings don't take that much investment). You just have to use your actual sling bullets like you're playing a survival horror game: only on the big stuff. This is coming from a non-ammo gifting, sling using 3-rune win without getting Shoals.

Totally agree on throwing though, it takes way more investment than Slings with less payoff if you don't have ammo gifts or a find a nice source of throwing instruments. It's only a safe bet on characters who can use large rocks.

odiv
Jan 12, 2003

My biggest pet peeve about ammunition is that I can't (to my knowledge) ignore all the single arrows/bolts/stones that take a turn to pick up each. If I turn off the autopickup it just ignores the fresh piles of them, which is kind of the opposite of what I want.

Victory Position
Mar 16, 2004

Floodkiller posted:

Totally agree on throwing though, it takes way more investment than Slings with less payoff if you don't have ammo gifts or a find a nice source of throwing instruments. It's only a safe bet on characters who can use large rocks.

They're locked to very few species as well, more or less pigeonholing you into throwing those large rocks. I always wondered why something like Charms didn't have a spell that allows you to levitate and then throw large rocks for the other species.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo

Internet Kraken posted:

You're not supposed to use shields if you're using longbows/triple crossbows. If you wanna use a shield and have a ranged option there are better options for that.

To me though, a consistent problem with the throwing and slings schools in Crawl is that you have no source of ammunition. If shoals spawns you can get a bunch of sling bullets and javelins from there. If it doesn't spawn you just... don't. Its a weird bit of RNG that can totally change the power of your character. The whole dynamic of the Lair branches is weird in that regard.

I don't mean to dismiss the balance concern of perma reflect on a ranged character or anything but I'm honestly bit weirded out by "You're not supposed to do X"; again, specifically on gnolls and overall generalists worshipping Oka it's perfectly valid gameplay wise to run around with a bow and plink at the low intensity encounters saving lot of turns and sparing yourself of positioning risks and then whipping out a melee weapon and shield to crack the tougher nuts you can't kill before they make it to you and who are risky in ability to kill your face if you aren't wearing a shield. Right now, while gameplay/balance valid, it's just tedious, and that's what I think isn't justified.

Again, "you aren't supposed to be able to be super lethal and highly durable at the same time" makes sense to me, "you're not supposed to do a thing that makes logical sense and gameplay sense but is tedious" doesn't.

What if I found a super nifty shield and a super nifty bow and am in position to invest skill points into both? The limiter to make use of that should be skill points and encumb, not it taking like 15 key presses to swap between them every time, I mean, that was the entire point of permabuffs too, wasn't it?

Einwand
Nov 3, 2012

You idiot.
In this world it's pet or BE pet.

I feel like the difference there is that shields intentionally take a lot longer to unequip/equip than normal weapons and rings do, so presumably they're intended to be more of an intentional build than something you hotswap for the situation.

Teal
Feb 25, 2013

by Nyc_Tattoo

Einwand posted:

I feel like the difference there is that shields intentionally take a lot longer to unequip/equip than normal weapons and rings do, so presumably they're intended to be more of an intentional build than something you hotswap for the situation.

I'm okay with the turn time! It's fine! I can work around it! I just want it to take fewer taps and I don't see how's that unjustified if we can do it on technical level without messing with the balance.

And yes I could probably do this with some convoluted macro but Crawl is a game I often load up offline on some new random setup and it's pain in the rear end to drag these around.

Internet Kraken
Apr 24, 2010

slightly amused

Teal posted:

I'm okay with the turn time! It's fine! I can work around it! I just want it to take fewer taps and I don't see how's that unjustified if we can do it on technical level without messing with the balance.

And yes I could probably do this with some convoluted macro but Crawl is a game I often load up offline on some new random setup and it's pain in the rear end to drag these around.

Ah, well that's fair I suppose. TBh that's probably something even the mainline devs wouldn't object too. They're all about things that make Crawl more streamlined and accessible. Something that just simplifies key presses without affecting balance is fine.

FulsomFrank
Sep 11, 2005

Hard on for love
Didn't we have a big conversation a while ago about introducing infinite quivers or satchels for rocks and arrows that gets rid of the pointless and RNG-dependent meta game of ammunition? I always thought that sounded like a nice solution and even presented the opportunity to have some neat new items floating around. But then again I never use ranged weapons because I find them tedious so there's that too.

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Cardiovorax
Jun 5, 2011

I mean, if you're a successful actress and you go out of the house in a skirt and without underwear, knowing that paparazzi are just waiting for opportunities like this and that it has happened many times before, then there's really nobody you can blame for it but yourself.
I kind of like the simulationist aspect of having ammunition that is made of actual real objects in the game instead of just an abstraction, so I don't really want it gone entirely. There has to be a better way to deal with picking all your single arrows back up, though.

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