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If anything, the manga increasingly appears to have the opposite problem: that Isayama is (intentionally or not) equating the opposition modern Japan faces on the world stage with the historical oppression of the Jewish people.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:45
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Kerning Chameleon posted:If anything, the manga increasingly appears to have the opposite problem: that Isayama is (intentionally or not) equating the opposition modern Japan faces on the world stage with the historical oppression of the Jewish people. Yeah this is the negative interpretation of the series that I'm able to buy. I have a hard time seeing how anyone who actually follows the series could interpret the story saying that what has happened to the Eldians is a positive thing, but this is pretty hard to deny.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:50
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This has come up before but yeah people read the “text” provided by the Marley government (which is propaganda and portrayed as such), and take is as the text of the story itself, and assume it’s anti Semitic. You can fault the story for using hamfisted holocaust imagery but it’s pretty straightforward that the analog for Nazis in this story are bad and generally are telling lies about the Eldians to maintain control.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:01
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I read that Twitter thread and 80% of it are people who have not read the thing, and are spreading misinformation.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:26
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MonsterEnvy posted:I read that Twitter thread and 80% of it are people who have not read the thing, and are spreading misinformation. Uninformed twitter addicts spreading bullshit? Oh no my monocle just embedded itself in the moon.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:30
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That Blog Post posted:Isayama has also paralleled the Eldians to Japanese people. Paradis is very obviously an analog to Japan. An island nation asserting itself on the world stage, yet dogged by past crimes? That’s Japan, I don't feel like the blog post is doing enough to actually establish this. Paradis just asserted itself on the World Stage (without introducing themselves first) by dropping a nuclear device on the nearest port city. Like if that is supposed to be a parallel to Japan in the 80's/90's, then what the heck is it a parallel to? If it is supposed to be a parallel to what Japan did in the first half of the 20th century, then isn't that admitting that what Japan did is bad? Maybe the reason it isn't gelling with me is that I don't think that what Eren and crew did in Marley was supposed to be portrayed as good? Also a "Japanese" character in this analogy was the one provoking the mainland to attack Japan. I just don't feel like it holds up other than "they're on an island."
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Feb 17, 2019 01:33
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Captain Cappy posted:I don't feel like the blog post is doing enough to actually establish this. Paradis just asserted itself on the World Stage (without introducing themselves first) by dropping a nuclear device on the nearest port city. Like if that is supposed to be a parallel to Japan in the 80's/90's, then what the heck is it a parallel to? If it is supposed to be a parallel to what Japan did in the first half of the 20th century, then isn't that admitting that what Japan did is bad? He goes into more detail on that in his 113 review: quote:So I’ve noticed that the Survey Corps is still training recruits to fight titans. Who don’t exist anymore. I like this guy because he appears to be the only person on tumblr actually reading the manga, and not just looking at pictures of pretty boys to smooch together.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:39
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If you wanna read Paradis as Japan you probably have to read it as Japan circa Meiji Restoration, except they were a legit powerhouse before they went into isolation. Hell, it's easier to call Paradis a neutered 1920's Germany then.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:42
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Captain Cappy posted:I don't feel like the blog post is doing enough to actually establish this. Paradis just asserted itself on the World Stage (without introducing themselves first) by dropping a nuclear device on the nearest port city. Like if that is supposed to be a parallel to Japan in the 80's/90's, then what the heck is it a parallel to? If it is supposed to be a parallel to what Japan did in the first half of the 20th century, then isn't that admitting that what Japan did is bad? Oh it for sure was not portrayed as good. Almost all of the rest of the cast was like "Eren what the gently caress were you thinking." Then he was thrown in prison and was going to go on trial for treason with them planning to possibly feed him to another titan.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:42
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So Marley's titans don't exist huh.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:56
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People dont understand that Paradis' victimization is inherently bad, but also Eren Jaeger is still a villain who you're not meant to agree with.
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Feb 17, 2019 01:59
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Beefstew posted:People dont understand that Paradis' victimization is inherently bad, but also Eren Jaeger is still a villain who you're not meant to agree with. That remains in dispute. With the reveal of Zeke's actual plan, it's possible Eren will ultimately be revealed to really be the hero all along, and the horrible things he's done are just "unfortunate but necessary."
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Feb 17, 2019 02:05
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The series at its core I’ve always felt is about freedom and the struggle to obtain it. I feel both that blog and the anyone on twitter talking about facist overtones are really missing the point of the series and ignoring moments where Isayama is pretty much outright codemning each terrible act.Kerning Chameleon posted:That remains in dispute. With the reveal of Zeke's actual plan, it's possible Eren will ultimately be revealed to really be the hero all along, and the horrible things he's done are just "unfortunate but necessary." No matter what Eren’s actual plan is, his wholesale massacre of innocent people is an inherently bad act. Whatever good outcome he may have planned doesn’t wash away the suffering and destruction he caused, not just for the Marley civilians and the Eldian ghetto, but for the inevitable conflict he forced his own people into where many of them will die or suffer greatly.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:07
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Asuron posted:
Uhhh Eren's attack was literally during Marley's attempt to declare global war on Paradis so you could say the conflict was inevitable regardless of what Eren did
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Feb 17, 2019 03:22
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Good links, that review blog is interesting. The issue with the series, if it really is trying to make Eren out to be the bad guy, is his traits that are very similar to a shonen hero means it’s difficult to think he could be bad. We never really judge whether a Naruto or Luffy is immoral, it’s always kinda assumed they’re the hero. So if that hero really is gonna end up as a villain then it’s gonna be whiplash for a ton of readers. Many probably won’t even accept it and will just condone whatever Eren does unless there’s something really explicit in the narration to point out he’s the bad guy.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:34
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Ccs posted:Good links, that review blog is interesting. One of the things that made me first fall in love with this series is it takes a typical shonen hero and drops him in a more realistically grounded world (as grounded as a setting with man-eating giants rushing germanic castle cities can be, anyway) and shows how such a person would be perceived: like a goddamn psychopath. Armin and Mikasa are the only characters who consistently care about Eren as a person and friend, literally everyone else is either scared of him or trying to use him to further their own agenda. Often, both at the same time. If Eren didn't have his shoenen protagonist special abilities and somehow lived through the Trost attack, he'd be seen in-universe as... well, as Floch looks to us now: a violently insane loose cannon trying to make himself feel more important through violence and revenge than he really is, and would be treated and denigrated as such.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:43
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Ccs posted:The issue with the series, if it really is trying to make Eren out to be the bad guy, is his traits that are very similar to a shonen hero means it’s difficult to think he could be bad. We never really judge whether a Naruto or Luffy is immoral, it’s always kinda assumed they’re the hero. So if that hero really is gonna end up as a villain then it’s gonna be whiplash for a ton of readers. Many probably won’t even accept it and will just condone whatever Eren does unless there’s something really explicit in the narration to point out he’s the bad guy. Eren has killed several civilians and, regardless of what comes next, he will almost assuredly kill several more. It ain't quite a giant leap to think he might be a bad person.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:47
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Schwarzwald posted:Eren has killed several civilians and, regardless of what comes next, he will almost assuredly kill several more. It ain't quite a giant leap to think he might be a bad person. There's also his recent rant at Armin and Mikasa. Even if someone's willing to excuse the horrific things Eren's done in war for the sake of making tough decisions for some bigger picture... now he's also looking like a hosed-up rear end in a top hat for how he acts on the more personal level with his closest friends.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:52
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Super Rad posted:Uhhh Eren's attack was literally during Marley's attempt to declare global war on Paradis so you could say the conflict was inevitable regardless of what Eren did I'm pretty sure I hated that chapter at the time (and now) because it basically did setup a "I had to do it to 'em!" justification for Eren's actions. I'm fine with Willy being able to get a crowd of plebs riled up, but I would have liked to see a panel of diplomats with a "you fuckers unleashed titans on us last week and now you want our help? gently caress off" look on their face. It's extra weak because anyone could point out that if Paradis was going to release the Wall Titans that they were going to definitely do it when everyone comes knockin' at their door. Might as well leave them alone rather than poke a hornet's nest.
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Feb 17, 2019 03:55
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I also think it’s a bit dangerous to keep drawing comparisons between fiction and reality. The author has clearly taken inspiration from both Japanese history and the plight of Jewish people and mashed it up a bit. But it’s more interesting to judge the actions of these characters in their environment instead of trying to figure if the work is some ploy to further nationalistic ambitions in the real world, or has a direct analogue, etc. This gets into issues of whether authorial intent even matters, etc.
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Feb 17, 2019 04:03
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Ccs posted:I also think it’s a bit dangerous to keep drawing comparisons between fiction and reality. The author has clearly taken inspiration from both Japanese history and the plight of Jewish people and mashed it up a bit. But it’s more interesting to judge the actions of these characters in their environment instead of trying to figure if the work is some ploy to further nationalistic ambitions in the real world, or has a direct analogue, etc. That is probably where most peoples concerns come from. Japan is really not good at teaching their own history in regards to WW2 and the atrocities they specifically committed.
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Feb 17, 2019 04:38
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I think those fears are completely unfounded given just how much other characters codemn the terrible acts that are being committed by both countries. It has never at any point painted these actions as good.Super Rad posted:Uhhh Eren's attack was literally during Marley's attempt to declare global war on Paradis so you could say the conflict was inevitable regardless of what Eren did Nah it was an attempt at winning over the people there, but given Marleys history it would take more than that to provide a united force against Eldia. That was the whole thrust of Willy’s and McGaths plan, have the terrorist attack take place in the ghettos with Willy as bait to draw them out, with military officials and diplomats present to go back with reports of the incident. It was designed to minimise the damage and also get rid McGath’s rivals. It just so happened that Eren and Zeke wanted that to happen as well, so they gave them the fuel they needed Asuron fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 05:01
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I don't think it's fair to say you have to disassociate fiction from reality when the fiction is so clearly heavily influenced by reality. You can watch Star Wars a dozen times and not make the stormtroopers = nazis connection but you sure as hell would if Luke Skywalker lived in an European ghetto with an armband on.
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Feb 17, 2019 05:18
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Asuron posted:
 The title of the chapter is also "Declaration of War"
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Feb 17, 2019 05:20
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You people shouldn't even entertain KC.
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Feb 17, 2019 05:47
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Super Rad posted:
.... did you actually read what I wrote or? I don’t know how I could have been more clear about how McGath and Willy planned for the attack and put him out in the open on purpose, in order to seal the deal because they knew Willy coming out talk to about it wouldn’t be enough. They talk about it in chapter 99 and McGath reflects on it in 101. The title is also a reference to how Eren’s actions have started the conflict and the way in which it happened at how destructive it will be.
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Feb 17, 2019 06:23
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Asuron posted:.... did you actually read what I wrote or? So you're seriously saying that if Eren hadn't attacked that Willy would have ended the whole speech with a "lol just kidding we're not declaring war on Paradis"? It's almost like they were doing both things, declaring war and setting the stage for the rest of the world to be sympathetic to Marley.
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Feb 17, 2019 07:43
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Video evidence of the inevitable Eren/Zeke debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6GLoKkkCtY
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Feb 17, 2019 08:00
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Ccs posted:I also think it’s a bit dangerous to keep drawing comparisons between fiction and reality. The author has clearly taken inspiration from both Japanese history and the plight of Jewish people and mashed it up a bit. But it’s more interesting to judge the actions of these characters in their environment instead of trying to figure if the work is some ploy to further nationalistic ambitions in the real world, or has a direct analogue, etc. I think another factor is that it's hard to say what the point is since the story isn't over yet. Given all the mutations it's gone through from back when it was just a story about "We want freedom from flesh-eating giants" there's no telling what note it'll end on Of course, that means it could have some hosed up ending too, whether the hosed up part is some questionable real life thematic stuff or just ending on a super nihilistic and depressing note.
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Feb 17, 2019 08:22
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Ccs posted:I also think it’s a bit dangerous to keep drawing comparisons between fiction and reality. The author has clearly taken inspiration from both Japanese history and the plight of Jewish people and mashed it up a bit. But it’s more interesting to judge the actions of these characters in their environment instead of trying to figure if the work is some ploy to further nationalistic ambitions in the real world, or has a direct analogue, etc. Not just Jewish people; there were other groups of actual secondhand citizens/slaves that were basically conditioned to fight for the people that did that to them, but thought to be at least physically superior or equal. Babbys first attempt at subtext is as limited as you'd expect due to not enough worldview to understand more, basically. That whole write up tells me someone didn't read enough history at all.
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Feb 17, 2019 09:29
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The Author has confirmed the ending is not going to be a bleak one.
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Feb 17, 2019 10:54
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Super Rad posted:So you're seriously saying that if Eren hadn't attacked that Willy would have ended the whole speech with a "lol just kidding we're not declaring war on Paradis"? It's almost like they were doing both things, declaring war and setting the stage for the rest of the world to be sympathetic to Marley. No, what I'm saying is that Marley would not have had the united support to take on Paradise. Willy stepped into the open and provoked a terrorist attack to guarantee worldwide support of the military campaign, which was looking dubious even within their own forces because the military officers no longer wanted to rely on Titans as a military force. Eren's attack both ensured that the Marley military would 100% engage and that they would have countries being sympathetic to the Marley cause, something they would not have had unless he had engaged in that action. It is why all the characters are shocked at Eren's actions, because even if have Willy get up on that stage, there was still a pretty strong chance for diplomacy due to Marleys past of conquest. Eren erased any chance of that happening. Does that make sense now?
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Feb 17, 2019 14:29
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No, that wasn't it. Marley could've taken on Paradis regardless - Willy's goal was to stabilize the world's geopolitical situation by setting Paradis up as the big villains. The world uniting against a common threat would to a degree ameliorate the friction caused by a century of Marleyan imperialism, and the catharsis of finally exterminating the Paradisians would, in a way, exonerate the rest of the Eldian race. It wasn't an ideal nor guaranteed outcome, of course, but him and Maghart were doing their best with the hand they where dealt with - to the point Willy was willing to put his life on the line for it. The invasion would've proceeded regardless of whether Eren had taken the bait, at best all they'd have earned themselves was some time by failing to martyrize the Tyburs.
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Feb 17, 2019 14:55
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Kerning Chameleon posted:Of course, this means like the Ackermans might get slaughtered in meantime, but Eren's made it explicitly clear he thinks they're subhuman mongrels unworthy of life anyway, so he may just see that as a nice bonus. These last two chapters(maybe it was more that that) touch on this and I was thinking that maybe Eren has put it together that the founding titan changed them to how they are now because he was so familiar with how they gained their strength. Maybe he plans to free them also. Asuron posted:No matter what Eren’s actual plan is, his wholesale massacre of innocent people is an inherently bad act. Whatever good outcome he may have planned doesn’t wash away the suffering and destruction he caused, not just for the Marley civilians and the Eldian ghetto, but for the inevitable conflict he forced his own people into where many of them will die or suffer greatly. It felt like it was just all planned out anyway to make Eren show himself. They did set it up to be announced in a place the eldian part of the city, so they had to know something would happen. Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 22:07
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Asuron posted:Does that make sense now? Totally - Eren definitely played into Marley's hands by attacking when he did and completely ensured global support - but I think Isayama implied that the support would have come either way with this panel:  I think the fact that the declaration came from an eldian Tybur rather than a Marleyan also made the declaration carry more weight among the global audience.
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Feb 18, 2019 04:12
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Even Willy Tybur was nothing but a pawn. They basically sent him up to be killed instantly.
Tenzarin fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Feb 18, 2019 |
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Feb 18, 2019 06:25
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https://twitter.com/djoats02/status/1099769034210455553?s=20
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Feb 25, 2019 15:39
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Hmmmery. A Lot To Think About.
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Feb 25, 2019 15:44
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We still on that old poo poo, huh.
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Feb 25, 2019 15:46
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At least twitter users are making it easy to know who to ignore with this poo poo
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Feb 25, 2019 17:19
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