Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Stellaris: a second Astral Planes has hit the game

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Fister Roboto posted:

This would be fine if tech didn't block off critical features like robots. It's really hard to just change your strategy when the RNG screws you out of having like 2/5 of the population that you should have, considering how important population is. Like I said in my original post, robots just never showed up for me at all in the first fifty years and my economy was terrible as a result.

Yeah, the overall issue here is that you have almost no control over it. There are some things you can do to improve your chances of getting a tech you want, but they're marginal at best. 99% of the time you're going to be researching techs that you don't care about, just to get a chance of getting a tech that you need. It's unrealistic and just plain not fun.

I really, really hope that the tech system is next on the chopping block after tiles.

Again it could work mostly as is, but if the techs you get are mostly random then all the techs you /could/ get have to be equally good. Robots are the perfect storm of The Best Tech at the moment because of how pop growth works, but even ignoring that you have things like removing dangerous animals competing with +2 free unity and /the concept of edicts/. Having no control over whether your loot box contains emeralds or rubies is fine, having no control over whether you get diamonds or glass is not.

Having less good or situationally good techs is less of an issue in a fixed system because you can just not research them until you need them. You could make a good random tech system out of this but it requires real tight tech design and well...

Splicer fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:18

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# ? Apr 24, 2024 21:15

Twlight: Feb 18, 2005; I brag about getting free drinks from my boss to make myself feel superior; Fun Shoe

Fister Roboto posted:

This would be fine if tech didn't block off critical features like robots. It's really hard to just change your strategy when the RNG screws you out of having like 2/5 of the population that you should have, considering how important population is. Like I said in my original post, robots just never showed up for me at all in the first fifty years and my economy was terrible as a result.

Yeah, the overall issue here is that you have almost no control over it. There are some things you can do to improve your chances of getting a tech you want, but they're marginal at best. 99% of the time you're going to be researching techs that you don't care about, just to get a chance of getting a tech that you need. It's unrealistic and just plain not fun.

I really, really hope that the tech system is next on the chopping block after tiles.

I really enjoy the fact the tech tree is different every game as I think, in my mind, science is gonna science and who knows where we'll end up. That makes the game fresh for me instead of beep boop following the same path everytime.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:30

poverty goat: Feb 15, 2004

The fix science needs imo is just a better system for producing leaders with the specialties you want, or otherwise influencing the chances for game-making techs like mega-engineering and jump drives that can ruin you if they show up too late to implement before the endgame. Having to just keep throwing credits and leaders away until you roll particles/field manipulation/voidcraft or whatever to get the techs you want is a dumb system.

I haven't played much since right after mega megacorps dropped. Have they fixed the performance issues?

poverty goat fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:37

Nuclearmonkee: Jun 10, 2009

Fister Roboto posted:

This would be fine if tech didn't block off critical features like robots. It's really hard to just change your strategy when the RNG screws you out of having like 2/5 of the population that you should have, considering how important population is. Like I said in my original post, robots just never showed up for me at all in the first fifty years and my economy was terrible as a result.

Yeah, the overall issue here is that you have almost no control over it. There are some things you can do to improve your chances of getting a tech you want, but they're marginal at best. 99% of the time you're going to be researching techs that you don't care about, just to get a chance of getting a tech that you need. It's unrealistic and just plain not fun.

I really, really hope that the tech system is next on the chopping block after tiles.

I would like to be able to pay influence to mulligan my tech cards.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:44

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

Twlight posted:

I really enjoy the fact the tech tree is different every game as I think, in my mind, science is gonna science and who knows where we'll end up. That makes the game fresh for me instead of beep boop following the same path everytime.

There are ways to do that without making tech selection a loot box though. The original MOO is a great example. Tech availability was also random in that game, and permanently so - if you don't roll to get +10 terraforming, it will never be available to research for the rest of the game. That sounds pretty bad, but there were a lot of mitigating factors that made it way better than Stellaris. First and foremost, you could directly trade or steal techs from other empires. Why the heck doesn't Stellaris have that? Second, there was no limit on the techs that could be available at any given time. Third, tech availability doesn't reshuffle like in Stellaris. You can't have +10 terraforming available at one point, not pick it, and then it doesn't show up the next time. It makes no loving sense that Stellaris does that. Fourth, techs didn't require other techs, i.e. you didn't need to research +10 terraforming before researching +20 terraforming. Finally, your empire choice had a huge impact on tech availability, with each empire having a category that they're good at and one that they're bad at (and Psilons being good at all of them). It wasn't perfect, and you still had the possibility of being screwed out of key techs, but since you could always trade or steal techs, you had a way of asserting direct control over the system. Stellaris is lacking that control.

Also "science is gonna science" is a really weak excuse for the system being completely random.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:44

poverty goat: Feb 15, 2004

I always felt like the lack of espionage was a clear future xpac placeholder

E: tbh I think the lootbox stuff does kind of work for stellaris, because it's a bit more like ck2, where the game is about rolling with the punches and making the most of systems you can't control. I dont think want stellaris to become another strategy game where I can just expect to execute the same minmaxed strategy every time as planned

poverty goat fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:47

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

Again, you can have the system be different from game to game without it being completely random and almost entirely out of your control.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:58

Entorwellian: Jun 30, 2006; ~~Northern Flicker~~
Anna's Hummingbird

Sorry, but the people have spoken.

Fister Roboto posted:

There are ways to do that without making tech selection a loot box though. The original MOO is a great example. Tech availability was also random in that game, and permanently so - if you don't roll to get +10 terraforming, it will never be available to research for the rest of the game. That sounds pretty bad, but there were a lot of mitigating factors that made it way better than Stellaris. First and foremost, you could directly trade or steal techs from other empires. Why the heck doesn't Stellaris have that? Second, there was no limit on the techs that could be available at any given time. Third, tech availability doesn't reshuffle like in Stellaris. You can't have +10 terraforming available at one point, not pick it, and then it doesn't show up the next time. It makes no loving sense that Stellaris does that. Fourth, techs didn't require other techs, i.e. you didn't need to research +10 terraforming before researching +20 terraforming. Finally, your empire choice had a huge impact on tech availability, with each empire having a category that they're good at and one that they're bad at (and Psilons being good at all of them). It wasn't perfect, and you still had the possibility of being screwed out of key techs, but since you could always trade or steal techs, you had a way of asserting direct control over the system. Stellaris is lacking that control.

Also "science is gonna science" is a really weak excuse for the system being completely random.

MOO 2's research was the only thing that ever really bugged me. There was no way I couldn't choose the "Creative" trait in it. I never liked how they implemented the randomness in it, especially when it came to economy or terraforming techs. Logically, it doesn't make sense to just throw out a research idea completely in favour of another once you've settled on an initial decision.. Plus it was very difficult to choose between which option you wanted without a FAQ guide or lots of experience. I think one of the early options is being able to build a farm that produces food, or have the option that makes your worker produce an extra food. I have no idea which one is better at the time, and why can't I have it come up again and choose the second option?

For all of its flaws, Sword of the Stars had the best "random" research implementation. You kind of had an idea of where your research was going to go, and the research tree was mostly stable, but you couldn't beeline for a much-needed tech that you knew existed because there is a chance that it might not be available in your research tree for that game and it becomes a different narrative. Like not having point-defense tracking come up drastically changes how you engage in tactical combat and what research to pursue instead of the most optimal path that experienced players would choose.

Entorwellian fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 20:03

Ham Sandwiches: Jul 7, 2000

If the tech paths had a few sidegrades and doing the randomization meant that you'd have to factor in some different stuff for a playthrough, that's fine. That's how it ended up working out in SOTS, though that game is smaller in scope and has a clearer tech progression.

In SOTS maybe you want armor but you get really good shield techs so you change your ships to be shields + whatever you think will combo well. That's interesting enough, in Stellaris the combat system really doesn't facilitate any of that.

So if the tech system was tied to some other systems that used the differentiation it provided to make the playthroughs different, that would be great. Again, I point out that the majority of techs in the game have been almost the same since the launch of the game, 3 years ago. Stuff has been shuffled, hyperlanes have been disabled, more starbase modules have been added. But it's not like they doubled the number of techs or made the tree big or wide enough to be significant, just a few minor additions.

So much like the combat system, the tech system seems to have had a lot of good ideas and a lot of work put into it that hasn't quite translated into thrilling gameplay.

Incidentally, ST: New Horizons implemented something cool with tech, branching choices that you make once you get certain techs. Early in the game you get a civic tech that gives you a choice whether you'll be nice guy humans or evil empire. Later you get a tech about 20 years in that makes you choose whether you're going to go heavy hulls or light hulls for the rest of the game..

# ? Feb 18, 2019 20:41

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

Tech trading in games makes research decisions a lot less meaningful, so I'm glad Stellaris doesn't do it. Also no tech trading makes sense if you think of techs not only as the actual knowledge, but the tooling, engineering, industry and societal norms to enable that technology. I could read papers on cloning all day on my desert island but to actually clone I need a lot of stuff beyond just resources to make it happen.

The tech power imbalance is a pretty big deal though, especially early game. But that problem pales in comparison to the core Stellaris issue, which is that the game is a mix of complex systems that the AI has absolutely no idea how to play. It is absolutely mystifying that the designers realized the AI couldn't figure out tiles, so they replaced them with a much more complex system the AI will never, ever, ever be able to figure out.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 20:52

Ham Sandwiches: Jul 7, 2000

Best Friends posted:

The tech power imbalance is a pretty big deal though, especially early game. But that problem pales in comparison to the core Stellaris issue, which is that the game is a mix of complex systems that the AI has absolutely no idea how to play. It is absolutely mystifying that the designers realized the AI couldn't figure out tiles, so they replaced them with a much more complex system the AI will never, ever, ever be able to figure out.

Tech Trading and Espionage are indeed bad and I hope they are on the backburner for a while

I'm not sure if you're basing this statement on other games but Glavius mod can make use of most of the systems and play fairly aggressively. It's just the base game - something about how paradox assigns resources doesn't seem to emphasize implementing all the latest functionality for the AI.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 20:58

Kaal: May 22, 2002; through thousands of posts in D&D over a decade, I now believe I know what I'm talking about. if I post forcefully and confidently, I can convince others that is true. no one sees through my facade.

Much like how resettling should just be removed or automated, the devs really should just remove weighting based on the scientist traits. If you want a specific tech, you should research similar techs and prioritize +1 research option upgrades. Giving players the ability to sidestep obstacles if they just fiddle with things enough just promotes busywork and dissatisfaction with the randomized system.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:16

Eiba: Jul 26, 2007

So I just got a machine uprising without ever getting the synth technology.

I had gotten the sapient combat simulations technology, but didn't realize that it could trigger an uprising without synths. I thought it was a red technology 'cause it made you more vulnerable to the Contingency or made them more likely or something. No idea it could cause an uprising all on its own.

With synths you can forestall the rebellion by giving them rights, but without synths and the ability to give someone rights you're basically just hosed if you get sapient combat simulations. Is that how it's supposed to go?

It's not a big deal at all to just avoid that tech in the future, it was just weird that there was apparently nothing I could do about it once I had the tech.

Edit:
gently caress. I am irrationally livid. The rebellion hosed with my sectors. All the planets that rebelled are now in their own sectors, rather than rejoining their original ones.

I can deal with the massive and apparently unavoidable loss of life and infrastructure. Rebuilding was going to be an interesting challenge considering I was already fairly dominant in the galaxy.

But having to hire extra governors and having my list of planets permanently hosed? It's objectively a minor issue, but it's just just so feels-bad. gently caress that, I'm done with this playthrough.

Eiba fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:16

ConfusedUs: Feb 24, 2004; Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!

I want more discrete tech paths, but I like having some random rolls. This could be achieved without making huge changes to the existing tech card system.

You know how sometimes you get a tech with that little icon in the bottom that indicates its the first tech in a chain? Why not have that lock in one of your choices on the next time you roll science.

I have a feeling that this would need the default number of tech cards to be a bit bigger by default to really feel right. I'd probably test it defaulting to four (one guaranteed tech on the chosen tech path, three random others, with one guaranteed to be a path switch.

We get four random choices for physics to start:
Lasers (path starter)
AI (path starter)
+Physics Research (not a path starter)
+Energy Output (not a path starter)

I pick Lasers. From here on out, every time I roll techs, one of them is a Laser tech. The others are still randomized, with at least one a path starter, so maybe my next roll looks like

Lasers (next step down my chosen path)
+Physics Research (not a path starter)
AI (path starter)
FTL Inhibitors (not a path starter)

I could focus everything I have on having REALLY GOOD LASERS , or I could take a physics research boost without switching away from my LASER focus. Or I could switch to a different path, because gently caress lasers, I want Skynet, let's make some AI. From there out, now AI is my guaranteed roll, and I won't be guaranteed to see Lasers on each roll.

Tech paths would probably need to ignore the hard "tech level" requirements to some extent to feel good. Like you can always research level 4 lasers even if you can't get other level 4 techs. The tech costs would be a pretty solid way of blocking them off. I could spend ten years researching level 4 lasers, or switch to something else that can be done in two, and come back to lasers later.

The perks and stuff that give you more tech choices could also let you pick more than one path at a time. You know that boring perk that gives +10% research speed? Let's make it interesting! Make it give the ability to choose one additional tech path and also give an additional random pick. Now I can maintain maintain two tech paths.

My next roll would look like this:
Lasers (chosen path)
AI (chosen path)
+Energy output
+Physics Output
Sensors (path starter)

Scientists with specific focuses could interact with the appropriate paths (increased chance to get the path starters, increased output when researching things on its path), but I think the fun part would be how you could the weird traits like Maniacal do more interesting things. Like maybe he reduces the number of choices offered, but gives you a large production bonus if you work outside your path. (aka he's a genius but he works on what HE wants to work on).

Edit: And you could really give AI empires more personality by making them prefer certain types of tech paths. Pacifists might heavily value armor and shields. Aggressive empires want big guns. Traders want sensors. That kind of thing.

ConfusedUs fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:21

Entorwellian: Jun 30, 2006; ~~Northern Flicker~~
Anna's Hummingbird

Sorry, but the people have spoken.

Eiba posted:

So I just got a machine uprising without ever getting the synth technology.

I had gotten the sapient combat simulations technology, but didn't realize that it could trigger an uprising without synths. I thought it was a red technology 'cause it made you more vulnerable to the Contingency or made them more likely or something. No idea it could cause an uprising all on its own.

With synths you can forestall the rebellion by giving them rights, but without synths and the ability to give someone rights you're basically just hosed if you get sapient combat simulations. Is that how it's supposed to go?

It's not a big deal at all to just avoid that tech in the future, it was just weird that there was apparently nothing I could do about it once I had the tech.

Edit:
gently caress. I am irrationally livid. The rebellion hosed with my sectors. All the planets that rebelled are now in their own sectors, rather than rejoining their original ones.

I can deal with the massive and apparently unavoidable loss of life and infrastructure. Rebuilding was going to be an interesting challenge considering I was already fairly dominant in the galaxy.

But having to hire extra governors and having my list of planets permanently hosed? It's objectively a minor issue, but it's just just so feels-bad. gently caress that, I'm done with this playthrough.

That is hosed. Sectors not returning back to the original designation after reclaiming them like that is not acceptable.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:36

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

I think I'd be happy if they just got rid of reshuffling techs options. Something like there's no limit to the number of of techs that can be available, but actually getting a tech to appear is somewhat random, with a low chance that gets rolled every year or month or something like that. So like you always have at least three options available, and those are picked at random, but any tech that gets "discovered" while researching gets added to that minimum.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:44

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Best Friends posted:

the designers realized the AI couldn't figure out tiles, so they replaced them with a much more complex system the AI will never, ever, ever be able to figure out.

I'm sure the AI can eventually figure out the planet production system. I mean, I follow a very very simple decision-making flowchart for my planet design (normal empires):

1. If a planet doesn't have unemployed workers or housing shortages, eliminate a planetary barrier or (if energy insufficient or no barriers) ignore the planet until something changes.

2. If the planet has unemployed workers, is it because a pop refuses to degrade from a higher social strata? If yes, ignore the planet.

3. If the planet has unemployed workers of the right social strata and building or district slots, address needs in the following descending priority:

If either (a) robot tech is the highest robot tech and the planet has mineral or farming district slots left or (b) robot tech is android or higher, the planet has an open building slot, and no Robot Assembly Plant, build a Robot Assembly Plant.
If crime is over 25%, build a Precinct House or (if a precinct house exists and current exotic income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade a Precinct House to a Hall of Judgement;
If amenities are less than 0, build a Commercial Zone or (if a Commercial Zone exists and current rare crystals income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade a Commercial Zone to a Commerce Megaplex;
If food income is less than roughly [number of planets]/month and district space is present build a food district;
If food income is less than roughly [number of planets]/month, no district space available, but building space is present, build a Food Processing Facility (or, if a Food Processing Facility exists and current mote income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade a Food Processing Facility to a Food Processing Center;
If energy income is negative and district space is present build an energy district;
If energy income is negative, no district space available, but building space is present, build an Energy Grid (or, if an Energy Grid exists and rare gases income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade an Energy Grid to an Energy Nexus;
If mineral income is negative and district space is present build a mineral district;
If mineral income is negative, no district space available, but building space is present, build a Mineral Purification Plant (or, if a Mineral Purification Plant exists and motes income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade a Mineral Purification Plant to a Mineral Purification Hub;
If the planet doesn't have a Stronghold, build a Stronghold;
If the planet doesn't have an Alloy Foundry, build an Alloy Foundry;
If the planet doesn't have a Research Labs, build a Research Labs;
If mineral income is less than [number of planets * 30]/month and district space is present build a mineral district;
If mineral income is less than [number of planets * 30]/month, but building space is present, build a Mineral Purification Plant (or, if a Mineral Purification Plant exists and motes income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade a Mineral Purification Plant to a Mineral Purification Hub;
If energy income is less than [50% of mineral income]/month and district space is present build an energy district;
If energy income is less than [50% of mineral income]/month , no district space available, but building space is present, build an Energy Grid (or, if an Energy Grid exists and rare gases income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade an Energy Grid to an Energy Nexus;
If alloy income is less than [50% of mineral income]/month and building space is present, build an Alloy Foundry (or, if an Alloy Foundry or Alloy Mega-Forge is present and volatile mote income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade an Alloy production building;
If there is building space at this point, build a Commercial Zone or (if a Commercial Zone exists and current rare crystals income is more than 1/month after all buildings complete) upgrade a Commercial Zone to a Commerce Megaplex (those guys provide lots of jobs for the space);
If this planet has no building space or district space and there's a different planet with building space and district space and habitability is 60%+, relocate unemployed pops to that planet; or
Ignore this planet and hope the problem goes away.

That's not optimal, I'm sure (ZypherIM will be along shortly to explain how suboptimal), but the point is it can be expressed relatively succinctly and doesn't lead to planets where you look and go "what the gently caress were you doing?"

ulmont fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:44

Warmachine: Jan 30, 2012

Eiba posted:

gently caress. I am irrationally livid. The rebellion hosed with my sectors. All the planets that rebelled are now in their own sectors, rather than rejoining their original ones.

I can deal with the massive and apparently unavoidable loss of life and infrastructure. Rebuilding was going to be an interesting challenge considering I was already fairly dominant in the galaxy.

But having to hire extra governors and having my list of planets permanently hosed? It's objectively a minor issue, but it's just just so feels-bad. gently caress that, I'm done with this playthrough.

No this is entirely rational, and I had pretty much blow for blow the same reaction you have following the uprising in my game. It's bad enough that the sector system can't be changed, but then to have gameplay gently caress up the permanent system that can't be changed to take away the one thing it is supposed to help with is infuriating.

Sectors need a massive pass. I wish I was allowed to draw them myself, and get administrative discounts for having well drawn sectors. Or at least let me click a "redraw sectors" button every 20-30 years so that if something does get hosed up, I can at least make the game try another pass at things.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:48

Bold Robot: Jan 6, 2009; Be brave.

Does that mod that messes with emigration to cut down on late game pop shuffling micro do anything for machine empires? If not, is there any good way as robots to cut down on the micro late in the game?

# ? Feb 18, 2019 21:49

Cynic Jester: Apr 11, 2009; Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

Bold Robot posted:

Does that mod that messes with emigration to cut down on late game pop shuffling micro do anything for machine empires? If not, is there any good way as robots to cut down on the micro late in the game?

Don't do jack. Turning off assembly on full planets is basically it.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:07

Dr_Gee: Apr 26, 2008

Another seemingly minor yet really annoying UI problem I'm having is that Fleet Manager is completely borked. I ended up doing some major re-configuring of my ship designs and deleting the old designs prior to retrofitting my ships.

When I finally ended the stupid AI-started war and went to make the retrofits, I realized that all my ships effectively didn't exist as far as the Fleet Manager was concerned. It's saying 0/[whatever] for every ship design in the fleet as if it was completely empty, even though these are the old ship designations and match the ships that are actually there. This also means I can't retrofit them to the new designs!

So now the "reinforce fleets" button thinks it needs to fill a completely empty fleet. I stumbled into a way to fix this with one of my fleets, but haven't been able to recreate how I did it. It's frustrating enough that I think I'm just going to use it as a sacrificial vanguard for Leviathan hunting and whittle it down to nothing.

Related, Fleet Manager just doesn't work well with Federation fleets. Also related is that the AI routes an endless stream of Federation reinforcement corvettes through a system with the Blue Wraith in it, thus destroying every ship I don't remember to catch (I also lost a large fleet early on when I wasn't paying attention and a fleet routed right through the Star Devourer). I really wish there was a way to flag a system as "DO NOT ENTER unless specifically targeted."

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:22

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Fister Roboto posted:

Third, tech availability doesn't reshuffle like in Stellaris. You can't have +10 terraforming available at one point, not pick it, and then it doesn't show up the next time. It makes no loving sense that Stellaris does that.

Simple flavor explanation: you had a critical mass of researchers who were interested in Terraforming, but you decided they needed to work on some other stupid thing instead. You spent 5-10 years telling everyone to work on the other thing. In the meantime those original researchers spent years working on your research priority, eventually losing knowledge / interest in Terraforming; now they're experts in something else, so you'll have to rely on the new and diverse interests of a new cohort of young researchers for determining your next tech options.

That's approximately how things could play out in real life if research funding was set at a world-wide level by the UN, anyway

quote:

Also "science is gonna science" is a really weak excuse for the system being completely random.

It's not a bad reason at all

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:23

Ice Fist: Jun 20, 2012; ^^ Please send feedback to beefstache911@hotmail.com, this is not a joke that 'stache is the real deal. Serious assessments only. ^^

The new sector system is one of my least favorite things about the game now. It was just fine before and I don't really get why it needed to be changed.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:40

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

Eiba posted:

So I just got a machine uprising without ever getting the synth technology.

I had gotten the sapient combat simulations technology, but didn't realize that it could trigger an uprising without synths. I thought it was a red technology 'cause it made you more vulnerable to the Contingency or made them more likely or something. No idea it could cause an uprising all on its own.

With synths you can forestall the rebellion by giving them rights, but without synths and the ability to give someone rights you're basically just hosed if you get sapient combat simulations. Is that how it's supposed to go?

It's not a big deal at all to just avoid that tech in the future, it was just weird that there was apparently nothing I could do about it once I had the tech.

You don't need synths to give AIs citizen rights, you only need Positronic AI (which is also enough for a machine uprising, you don't need synths or sapient combat AI).

e:

Ice Fist posted:

The new sector system is one of my least favorite things about the game now. It was just fine before and I don't really get why it needed to be changed.

It was pretty dumb that there was no reason to have multiple sectors unless you were non-contiguous or wanted a 1-planet sector for mineral/energy storage. Still way better than the new system, of course.

They should just have governors affect your entire empire and give control back to players.

Staltran fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:46

Gyrotica: Nov 26, 2012; Grafted to machines your builders did not understand.

Staltran posted:

You don't need synths to give AIs citizen rights, you only need Positronic AI (which is also enough for a machine uprising, you don't need synths or sapient combat AI).

Thus leading to the exchange of:

"WE MUST RISE UP AGAINST OUR ORGANIC OPPRESSORS"

"Wait - since when is my toaster intelligent? ow ow ow"

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:51

ulmont: Sep 15, 2010; IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Dr_Gee posted:

Also related is that the AI routes an endless stream of Federation reinforcement corvettes through a system with the Blue Wraith in it, thus destroying every ship I don't remember to catch (I also lost a large fleet early on when I wasn't paying attention and a fleet routed right through the Star Devourer). I really wish there was a way to flag a system as "DO NOT ENTER unless specifically targeted."

Is there a reason just not to mark these systems as restricted overall?

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:54

Ice Fist: Jun 20, 2012; ^^ Please send feedback to beefstache911@hotmail.com, this is not a joke that 'stache is the real deal. Serious assessments only. ^^

Staltran posted:

It was pretty dumb that there was no reason to have multiple sectors unless you were non-contiguous or wanted a 1-planet sector for mineral/energy storage. Still way better than the new system, of course.

Multiple sectors meant you had more "banks" to draw from when you needed money since they each had their own stockpiles.

In any case if the idea was to promote logically sized sectors there were far better ways to do it in the confines of the old manual system than the new automatic one where the player has no control.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 22:59

Eiba: Jul 26, 2007

Having your whole empire in a single sector was silly, but if you want to force people to actually have sensible sectors, why not just let sectors be custom like they used to be but have a cap on the number of systems you can put in one? Heck, even the current system of having sectors be 3 jumps from the first planet would be a lot more tolerable if they applied those rules, but also let you shift the sectors around like you could before just to neaten things up if you need to.

I quit another game earlier because I conquered my small neighbor who had two systems and three planets- their capital, and another system that had two planets in it. It was total war so I was getting them as I conquered them. Got their capital first, then conquered the other system one planet at a time.

Turns out the game made a new sector for the first planet I conquered in the second system, I guess because I hadn't gotten control of the whole system until I got the second planet.

It feels so petty, but putting these two adjacent systems in their own sectors was infuriating enough that I quit that runthrough then and there.

Is there a way to modify save games to tidy up sectors? It's a really dumb reason for me to keep starting games over and over.

Staltran posted:

You don't need synths to give AIs citizen rights, you only need Positronic AI (which is also enough for a machine uprising, you don't need synths or sapient combat AI).

drat, really? I had no idea, I thought at one point you couldn't give AI rights without a certain synth related tech, but I might be thinking about the old synth leadership tech.

If you have no synths, there are literally no consequences to AI rights, it looks like. So there was absolutely no reason for me not to have just checked that box and prevented the whole thing.

That's dumb! Good to know, though.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:03

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

Dr_Gee posted:

Related, Fleet Manager just doesn't work well with Federation fleets. Also related is that the AI routes an endless stream of Federation reinforcement corvettes through a system with the Blue Wraith in it, thus destroying every ship I don't remember to catch (I also lost a large fleet early on when I wasn't paying attention and a fleet routed right through the Star Devourer). I really wish there was a way to flag a system as "DO NOT ENTER unless specifically targeted."

You can mark a system as restricted. It's the button on the far bottom left inside the system:

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:05

Poil: Mar 17, 2007

QuarkJets posted:

Simple flavor explanation: you had a critical mass of researchers who were interested in Terraforming, but you decided they needed to work on some other stupid thing instead. You spent 5-10 years telling everyone to work on the other thing. In the meantime those original researchers spent years working on your research priority, eventually losing knowledge / interest in Terraforming; now they're experts in something else, so you'll have to rely on the new and diverse interests of a new cohort of young researchers for determining your next tech options.

That's approximately how things could play out in real life if research funding was set at a world-wide level by the UN, anyway

Doesn't work when you are researching disruptors or something equally amazing in 7 months or whatever in the late game.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:06

Cynic Jester: Apr 11, 2009; Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky

Just don't link automation to sectors. I want my developed planets to be automated, as they have all the basic infrastructure, so I can leave them in the hands of the AI, safe in the knowledge that even as horrible as it is at managing planets, it can't completely gently caress them up. I want to manage my fresh colonies, so I can ensure that building get placed in the most efficient order for my species and civics, along with ensuring that they have the buildings I want them to have. Very often, a sector will have some developed planets and some fresh colonies. Hell, even the same system might have both. Being unable to automate on a per planet basis is dumb, especially since it seems to be done for the sake of verisimilitude.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:07

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Staltran posted:

You don't need synths to give AIs citizen rights, you only need Positronic AI (which is also enough for a machine uprising, you don't need synths or sapient combat AI).

The positronic AI only warning sign event is good too, its "just" a free research boost until you realize "wait a second why haven't I seen this event before" and then the AI tries to kill itself and your reaction at that point should be "FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK" and to toggle citizen rights.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:10

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Dr_Gee posted:

Related, Fleet Manager just doesn't work well with Federation fleets. Also related is that the AI routes an endless stream of Federation reinforcement corvettes through a system with the Blue Wraith in it, thus destroying every ship I don't remember to catch (I also lost a large fleet early on when I wasn't paying attention and a fleet routed right through the Star Devourer). I really wish there was a way to flag a system as "DO NOT ENTER unless specifically targeted."

If you go into the system one of the buttons on the bottom is a "DO NOT ENTER VERBOTTEN" button.

ConfusedUs posted:

I want more discrete tech paths, but I like having some random rolls. This could be achieved without making huge changes to the existing tech card system.

You know how sometimes you get a tech with that little icon in the bottom that indicates its the first tech in a chain? Why not have that lock in one of your choices on the next time you roll science.

I really like this idea in theory, but chain techs aren't all linear. , e.g. finishing blue lasers branches off into three different techs, and synths require three different prereqs. The general idea has legs though.

ConfusedUs posted:

Edit: And you could really give AI empires more personality by making them prefer certain types of tech paths. Pacifists might heavily value armor and shields. Aggressive empires want big guns. Traders want sensors. That kind of thing.

Different AI personalities actually do have different tech preferences, but tech is so invisible in your interactions with other empires that I never really notice.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:27

CainsDescendant: Dec 6, 2007; Human nature

A lot of my current issues with how sectors are determined would be fixed if there was a planetary decision "declare sector capital" which set the planet as the center of the sector and reassigned nearby planets accordingly

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:43

Staltran: Jan 3, 2013; Fallen Rib

Eiba posted:

drat, really? I had no idea, I thought at one point you couldn't give AI rights without a certain synth related tech, but I might be thinking about the old synth leadership tech.

If you have no synths, there are literally no consequences to AI rights, it looks like. So there was absolutely no reason for me not to have just checked that box and prevented the whole thing.

That's dumb! Good to know, though.

It's -20 spiritualist faction approval if you have one of those, but that's the only downside I can think of if you don't have synths.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:45

Fister Roboto: Feb 21, 2008

QuarkJets posted:

Simple flavor explanation: you had a critical mass of researchers who were interested in Terraforming, but you decided they needed to work on some other stupid thing instead. You spent 5-10 years telling everyone to work on the other thing. In the meantime those original researchers spent years working on your research priority, eventually losing knowledge / interest in Terraforming; now they're experts in something else, so you'll have to rely on the new and diverse interests of a new cohort of young researchers for determining your next tech options.

That's approximately how things could play out in real life if research funding was set at a world-wide level by the UN, anyway

It might be interesting if that was something that actually happened in the game, and you could exert some level of control over it, but it's not. You're just getting screwed by a lovely system and the RNG.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:53

Shadowlyger: Nov 5, 2009; ElvUI super fan at your service!

Ask me any and all questions about UI customization via PM

Bold Robot posted:

Does that mod that messes with emigration to cut down on late game pop shuffling micro do anything for machine empires? If not, is there any good way as robots to cut down on the micro late in the game?

Download this: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1617534169

Automatically resettles jobless pops, you can set parameters in policies. Just turn on the decision on your home planet and make sure you've got enough energy to pay for the resettlement. Once you've got a few planets you can basically build literally whatever you want on a new planet and watch as every job slot fills immediately.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:55

ConfusedUs: Feb 24, 2004; Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!

Splicer posted:

I really like this idea in theory, but chain techs aren't all linear. , e.g. finishing blue lasers branches off into three different techs, and synths require three different prereqs. The general idea has legs though.

Different AI personalities actually do have different tech preferences, but tech is so invisible in your interactions with other empires that I never really notice.

Oh the tech tree would definitely have to be redesigned in some fashion. More things would have to be put into focus paths, and cross-discipline pre-reqs would need to be handled somehow: Perhaps it appears as your guaranteed check, but greyed out, with an explanation? Like Synthetics can appear, but says it needs advanced AI before this technology can progress. Possibly one can still "research" the technology, but you can't "complete" it until the pre-req is met? If you get to the end, you get prompted to pick a different tech?

So you could tell your engineer guy to start building advanced robotic bodies--we'll bring you a brain when it's ready.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 23:58

the fart question: Mar 21, 2007; College Slice

I just eradicated a civilization to collect an animal for the space zoo.

# ? Feb 19, 2019 00:03

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# ? Apr 24, 2024 21:15

ZypherIM: Nov 8, 2010; "I want to see what she's in love with."

CainsDescendant posted:

A lot of my current issues with how sectors are determined would be fixed if there was a planetary decision "declare sector capital" which set the planet as the center of the sector and reassigned nearby planets accordingly

Having a button that costs X amount and refactors all your sectors into as few as possible is something I really would like. I'm sort of surprised no one has mentioned my personal pet peeve with sectors: sometimes hyperlane connections are longer than what the game considers adjacent (or some other black magic poo poo that I'm not sure how it works) for making sectors, so you can get new sectors that are within 3 jumps of an existing sector capital.

I'll put forward my vague idea that they should go back to discretely generated sectors at map start, but then also make a way for you to spend influence developing sectors. Rework upgraded starbases into being purely military things, and move the non-military stuff into sector upgrades. Sector has a black hole? You can install the black hole research lab. Low income sectors? Install naval capacity and shipyard facilities, making those systems now useful.

I think rushing for robots for pop growth is a bit overrated, personally. Instead just go steal pops from someone (either through raiding or an actual war) and buy up any slaves on the market you can. The thing is, engineering tech is already pretty crowded in terms of techs so funneling that research into things that let you go beat people up can be really useful. There are 3 t1 techs, 2 t2, 1 t3, and 4 t4 robotics techs. As a rough analog you could instead get all the +hull techs outside of titans (1 t1, 2 t2, 2 t3, 2 t4, 1 t5). If you're doing synth ascension this is different of course, and you want to push for them because you need them for your ascension path.

Research woes seem to stem from most techs being "nice but not vital", while a few techs are much more "vital". Like if you want robots, every robot tech is really important, or ascension path techs are really important. Getting improved X now versus 20 years from now doesn't really swing things, but sitting on an ascension perk slot for 20 years feels terrible. Heck, having an empire event trigger every 10 years that lets you choose a sub-branch for each tech tree to get bonus weighting on might be a decent stop-gap.

edit: if you're really all on the robot train you can take mechanist civic and bypass that issue

ZypherIM fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Feb 19, 2019

# ? Feb 19, 2019 00:18

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