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Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

Omobono posted:

What's the current year? Because I'm not fully sure this is Homo Sapiens yet.
(I fully agree with your broader point)

The start date seems to be 200000 B.C. which ought to mean that we're talking about some kind of anatomically modern humans.

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Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:
A lot of this follows the general pattern of Civilization where you have to invent things that you really should have already discovered already for the sake of introducing new mechanics to the game instead of dumping them in your already busy start, so I can't blame the mod creators too much. Especially when things are even more complicated here. Alas, the idea that this isn't humanity as we know it is not one of the reasons: Anatomically modern humanity has a bit of a problem in terms of its origins, but relatively recent findings show that humanity may in fact be older than the start date of the mod: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/world-s-oldest-homo-sapiens-fossils-found-morocco

Also, as someone who introduced Cannibalism without knowing what the heck it did, I can explain what happens: It never goes away naturally, but as you get later and later in the game it starts applying worse and worse unhappiness debuffs to your cities. You can eventually remove it as an option from your civilization via a Great Person (but not every type of Great Person can do it) or a Lawyer unit (that can only be produced way further down the tech tree) removing it from your capitol.

Of course, that's actually a simplification, since this is C2C. What it ACTUALLY does is build a "Worldview - Cannibalism" building in your capitol, which builds a seperate "Worldview - Cannibalism: Active" building in each of your cities (including the capitol) which enables the effects universally, and as the techs are introduced and (I think) cities reach a certain size, the cities auto build penalty buildings which are what provide the extra unhappiness.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot - Cannibalism also has default happiness/unhappiness modifiers that it provides based on civic types. So if you're running a suitably bloodthirsty enough civilization already, then it may actually be net neutral or give a slight happiness bonus to your cities.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Feb 23, 2019

mitochondritom
Oct 3, 2010

I'm really enjoying reading this LP, thanks OP. Such a weird and fascinating mod. So much work has gone into it and yet it is this horrible sprawling bloated thing. I can't get enough of it.

The whole prehistoric vibe is cool though and it makes me want a 4x game built around the whole thing. Without stoning and world wonder: cannibalism obviously. Stuff like the hunters capturing animals is really quite a good idea and could be worked into something actually fun, instead of whatever *this* is.

Angry Salami
Jul 27, 2013

Don't trust the skull.
There were a few Civ4 mods that did a similar thing - the fantasy Fall From Heaven mod had it, and even had one civ that started with weak goblin scouts that could capture wolves to upgrade to a wolf cavalry unit, which was pretty neat.

Zathril
Nov 12, 2011

I'm so disappointed that this didn't say "You consume the Great Person"

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?
Unfortunate implications aside, I do like the mechanics in this mod so far. Definitely going to follow this one from now on. :D

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

I suppose that since this is Civilization and the whole theme of the game is empire-building, perhaps the research and acquisition of techs is not necessarily our people learning how to do something, but rather our people developing organizing principles to make those specific somethings productive for society. Like, researching Theft doesn't literally mean "our people just learned how to steal" because they always knew that taking what didn't belong to them was a thing, but it does mean that our people are learning ways of organizing themselves into like-minded groups dedicated to stealing from others and additionally that our "government", or rather the prehistoric equivalent of that concept, knows how to utilize these "bandit gangs" to benefit themselves at the expense of those "other" tribes. This kind of makes sense considering what the Theft technology actually unlocks. Cooking similarly doesn't mean "how do we cook?" it means groups are springing up in our tribe that are specializing in taking animals and preparing food with them and making it easier for their fellow tribesmen to eat comfortably. Or perhaps I'm reaching with all this?

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Super Jay Mann posted:

I suppose that since this is Civilization and the whole theme of the game is empire-building, perhaps the research and acquisition of techs is not necessarily our people learning how to do something, but rather our people developing organizing principles to make those specific somethings productive for society. Like, researching Theft doesn't literally mean "our people just learned how to steal" because they always knew that taking what didn't belong to them was a thing, but it does mean that our people are learning ways of organizing themselves into like-minded groups dedicated to stealing from others and additionally that our "government", or rather the prehistoric equivalent of that concept, knows how to utilize these "bandit gangs" to benefit themselves at the expense of those "other" tribes. This kind of makes sense considering what the Theft technology actually unlocks. Cooking similarly doesn't mean "how do we cook?" it means groups are springing up in our tribe that are specializing in taking animals and preparing food with them and making it easier for their fellow tribesmen to eat comfortably. Or perhaps I'm reaching with all this?

Reminds me of Beyond Earth, where a lot of early techs are labeled things like Chemistry, Physics, Computers, and Engineering, which provoked some backlash from players who thought it was dumb that you had to research these things. But if you checked the civlopedia, the game clarified that these techs were about adapting our existing knowledge to the particulars of this planet, reconstructing old databases into something usable for the colony, building a proper infrastructure to support and use this technology on a large scale, things like that.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012
I'm curious if there's Ritual Sacrifice (eventually) as another alternative means to "consume" captured units.

oystertoadfish
Jun 17, 2003

in the end, at the bottom of it all is a board game where a handful of protagonist civilizations spread their colors across a previously uncolored map, which really has nothing to do with history or anthropology. I love how many things people have done with that format, but it's never going to simulate history or prehistory because it's set up to simplify and gamify those things. imho

on topic, the "burger joint" example was amazing and it helped me understand that we're only toe deep in this thing. can't wait to see the techs and buildings and resources necessary to get the seasoning for your burgers

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010


Fun Shoe

Super Jay Mann posted:

I suppose that since this is Civilization and the whole theme of the game is empire-building, perhaps the research and acquisition of techs is not necessarily our people learning how to do something, but rather our people developing organizing principles to make those specific somethings productive for society. Like, researching Theft doesn't literally mean "our people just learned how to steal" because they always knew that taking what didn't belong to them was a thing, but it does mean that our people are learning ways of organizing themselves into like-minded groups dedicated to stealing from others and additionally that our "government", or rather the prehistoric equivalent of that concept, knows how to utilize these "bandit gangs" to benefit themselves at the expense of those "other" tribes. This kind of makes sense considering what the Theft technology actually unlocks. Cooking similarly doesn't mean "how do we cook?" it means groups are springing up in our tribe that are specializing in taking animals and preparing food with them and making it easier for their fellow tribesmen to eat comfortably. Or perhaps I'm reaching with all this?

This makes sense for some techs, but something like Cave Dwelling is still pretty inexplicable.

Boksi
Jan 11, 2016

Super Jay Mann posted:

Rudra is kind of a bleh name though. I believe we can do better.



That's more like it :)

Our mighty hunter Boksi ventures to the great unknown, hopefully to not be eaten by tigers.

:D

Units can grow pretty ridiculously powerful if you level them up enough in this mod, so let's hope I survive long enough to show off some of the really crazy promotions. Do the forest combat promotions still give bonuses vs animals?


Xelkelvos posted:

I'm curious if there's Ritual Sacrifice (eventually) as another alternative means to "consume" captured units.

Human sacrifice is a worldview building, yes. And if you want to go all in, there's also the Nahuatl religion :ese:

RBA Starblade
Apr 28, 2008

Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Cythereal posted:

Reminds me of Beyond Earth, where a lot of early techs are labeled things like Chemistry, Physics, Computers, and Engineering, which provoked some backlash from players who thought it was dumb that you had to research these things. But if you checked the civlopedia, the game clarified that these techs were about adapting our existing knowledge to the particulars of this planet, reconstructing old databases into something usable for the colony, building a proper infrastructure to support and use this technology on a large scale, things like that.

It's n the other hand it's way funnier to assume that your colonists who just arrived by spaceship don't know what gravity is

Prav
Oct 29, 2011

could've probably given those techs some better names

Dr. Snark
Oct 15, 2012

I'M SORRY, OK!? I admit I've made some mistakes, and Jones has clearly paid for them.
...
But ma'am! Jones' only crime was looking at the wrong files!
...
I beg of you, don't ship away Jones, he has a wife and kids!

-United Nations Intelligence Service

Prav posted:

could've probably given those techs some better names

"New World Chemistry," "Functional Computer Networks," "Planetary Physics," "Colonial Engineering."

Boom. Now those starting techs have more sensible names. Where's my paycheck!?

berryjon
May 30, 2011

I have an invasion to go to.

Dr. Snark posted:

"New World Chemistry," "Functional Computer Networks," "Planetary Physics," "Colonial Engineering."

Boom. Now those starting techs have more sensible names. Where's my paycheck!?

Sent to the person who hired the voice actress for the opening video.

Falcorum
Oct 21, 2010

Dr. Snark posted:

"New World Chemistry," "Functional Computer Networks," "Planetary Physics," "Colonial Engineering."

Boom. Now those starting techs have more sensible names. Where's my paycheck!?

That sounds too much like Alpha Centauri names and everyone knows that Beyond Earth was them going "you want a sequel to AC? FINE, here you loving go". :v:

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Falcorum posted:

That sounds too much like Alpha Centauri names and everyone knows that Beyond Earth was them going "you want a sequel to AC? FINE, here you loving go". :v:

Eh, I maintain that Firaxis did not want Beyond Earth to be seen as AC2. They just knew that's what people would call it and expect it to be even though it was never going to be that.

AC is a very, very 90s game. Just look at the factions, they all make sense for an early to mid 90s idea of ideologies and ways of life on the rise.

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007

What God wants, God gets, God help us all
Firaxis wanted to remake AC but without the distressing moral implications of future tech. They deliberately whitewashed the future, kinda like original Star Trek. Never mind that the three paths you can take in BE are about forcing everyone else to join you in making a very specific idea of human 2.0, whether they like it or not. Normal humans are destined to die out by the end of the game, and everyone is so cheery about it that it actually adds an extra layer of dystopian nightmare on top.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:
oh no how did i get here this is not sustainable city planning

berryjon
May 30, 2011

I have an invasion to go to.
:wtf:

150,000 Science a turn, and it's taking you 5 turns to research an Industrial Era tech? Just how large to tech costs get inflated in this game?!?

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:
To put that in perspective, the final tech of the game, if I researched it now, would take around 1700 turns of my current science production.

So the answer to your question is: ridiculously so.

EDIT: Also, I edited out the map lest it distract from this mess, but this is with the entirety of the land part of the planet apart from this border mountain range under my control. I'm 300 years ahead of schedule compared to how the devs planned it. This will likely take even longer for SJM who is playing on Immortal, rather than Prince difficulty , and thus will likely not wipe the map by Renaissance. Then again, I am not very efficient, hence why playing on Prince in the first place, so who knows?

Jossar fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Feb 23, 2019

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

I assume Jossar is on Marathon speed like I am, and that inflates costs by I think a factor of 4 compared to "Normal" speed? So you can always play on a faster setting if the long haul isn't a savory thought.

But yes, everything gets very expensive later on no matter what.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013
Why the hell do you have moon druids?

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:

NewMars posted:

Why the hell do you have moon druids?

It is so much dumber than that.

The real Moon is so far away you can't even see it yet, even with all of this nonsense. Cislunar represents Space from the beginning of orbit until you reach the Moon. The row of mountain peaks is just supposed to be there as a neat little flourish marking the difference between where Earth ends and Space begins. As you'd think from three rows of solid mountain peaks, there's nothing useful here, just a bunch of moderate hammers. You also know that you're not supposed to be here because the entirety of the mountain ranges are blocked by a row of ice that land units cannot move over...

Except there's an Industrial era tech that lets your work ships break through the ice barrier. And there's an even earlier tech that lets you move onto and settle mountain peaks for the purpose of creating Machu Picchu-like cities and having really durable workers. So you can build cities at the very edge of the mountain range and have their culture expand out into orbit, because according to the game it's just another tile, albeit one with different terrain features.There's no real purpose to doing this except for maintaining 100% map control and to give me something to do while I wait for the game to tick over to late Atomic when the next meaningful period of advancement begins.

The closest "narrative" equivalent to this is, in the equivalent of the 1800s, shoving a small village on the top of Mt. Everest and claiming that everything from the town's geographic area up to space is your sovereign territory.

They're druids because I didn't bother to research religion early on, seeing it as a waste of time when I had to play the tech catch up game, and instead just converted from the first city I captured. At this point the entirety of the civilization's cities have converted to Druidism and i'd lose a lot of bonuses if I tried to convert to something else without MASSIVE prepwork, based on both the state religion bonus and civic related stuff.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Feb 24, 2019

Prav
Oct 29, 2011

i knew those flat-earthers were on to something

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

Incidentally, the plan down the line, as far as I understand it, is to implement a "multiple maps" system wherein general space regions and planets would exist as separate maps that you can switch between at will and that would be how space travel would be conceptualized as far as the Civ 4 engine goes.

That's a rather significant technical hurdle though so for now regular maps with "space terrain" is what we've got.

I'll say this, the (current) developers are nothing if not ambitious.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado


NewMars posted:

Why the hell do you have moon druids?

Because they can summon pixies to turn the party into flying T-Rexes :colbert:

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013

Super Jay Mann posted:

Incidentally, the plan down the line, as far as I understand it, is to implement a "multiple maps" system wherein general space regions and planets would exist as separate maps that you can switch between at will and that would be how space travel would be conceptualized as far as the Civ 4 engine goes.

That's a rather significant technical hurdle though so for now regular maps with "space terrain" is what we've got.

I'll say this, the (current) developers are nothing if not ambitious.

You know the strange thing is that I think civ 2's engine actually could handle that, with the fantastic worlds pack.

Bloodly
Nov 3, 2008

Not as strong as you'd expect.

quote:

Because they can summon pixies to turn the party into flying T-Rexes

I'd have gone for 'Terraforming'.

tombom
Mar 8, 2006

NewMars posted:

You know the strange thing is that I think civ 2's engine actually could handle that, with the fantastic worlds pack.

Civ 2 Test of Time had 3 different multiple map settings:
- an extended original game where getting the space tech allowed access to an alpha centauri map which had some aliens on it plus an extended tech tree (nothing like c2c or alpha centauri the game though)
- a fantasy game where you had 4 maps, a cloud world, surface world, undersea and underworld.
- a science fiction game where the 4 maps were different planets in a solar system

The games were not very different mechanically reskins of each other but the concept was cool.

King Doom
Dec 1, 2004
I am on the Internet.
Did they ever fix the issue where it was possible to get a city producing so much food/hammers/gold per turn it wrapped around from positive to negative? I was doing so well in my last game until my capital was suddenly producing -200000 food per turn.

Edit: One thing that's popped up a few times in screenshots but hasn't been directly addressed, there are certain animals here you wouldn't expect to see in a regular civ game due to the games timeframe. I don't want to spoil anything directly, but yeah, the mod has a few little surprises left.

King Doom fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Feb 24, 2019

Mycroft Holmes
Mar 26, 2010

by Azathoth
tell me more about the alt tech stuff

King Doom
Dec 1, 2004
I am on the Internet.

Mycroft Holmes posted:

tell me more about the alt tech stuff

If you get the Zeppelin Aircraft Carriers you never, ever upgrade them and you guard them like the unique, beautiful treasures they are since they are the only non ship carrier in the game. Also if you get the Sky Dreadnought I'd love to know how, since I could never build that thing.

General Revil
Sep 30, 2014

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Jossar posted:

oh no how did i get here this is not sustainable city planning



A bit of a tangent, but I hate what imgur does when you're on mobile. The image was compressed and reduced in resolution so badly that I couldn't read it on my phone. I had to get on my computer to see the shenanigans.

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

King Doom posted:

Did they ever fix the issue where it was possible to get a city producing so much food/hammers/gold per turn it wrapped around from positive to negative? I was doing so well in my last game until my capital was suddenly producing -200000 food per turn.

Yeah they overhauled the code to fix the interger underflow stuff a bit ago. I wouldn't have started this LP had that still been in the game.

quote:

Edit: One thing that's popped up a few times in screenshots but hasn't been directly addressed, there are certain animals here you wouldn't expect to see in a regular civ game due to the games timeframe. I don't want to spoil anything directly, but yeah, the mod has a few little surprises left.

Oh could you elaborate a bit? I know there are a couple of interesting prehistoric animals wandering about but nothing noteworthy from my vantage point. Then again there are so many different animals and variations on those animals that they all just kind of become a blur after some point. I only really pay attention to stuff that would give me herds/camps or other useful buildings down the line. Oh, and the stuff that can outright kill me of course.

EDIT: Or perhaps you're talking about animals we can use militarily? If so, yeah, we'll get to that in due time...

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface
The giant sloth associated units are kinda neat but also useless.

ssmagus
Apr 2, 2010
Assmagus, LPer ass-traordinaire

King Doom posted:

If you get the Zeppelin Aircraft Carriers you never, ever upgrade them and you guard them like the unique, beautiful treasures they are since they are the only non ship carrier in the game. Also if you get the Sky Dreadnought I'd love to know how, since I could never build that thing.

It's a overlook they've not fixed yet. It's set as a replacement unit, but it doesn't replace anything. It should be set as a normal buildable unit instead.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









ssmagus posted:

It's a overlook they've not fixed yet. It's set as a replacement unit, but it doesn't replace anything. It should be set as a normal buildable unit instead.

Why on earth didn't you name yourself assmagus

It was right there

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ssmagus
Apr 2, 2010
Assmagus, LPer ass-traordinaire

sebmojo posted:

Why on earth didn't you name yourself assmagus

It was right there

your a mod, make me

also whwo wants to be forever known as a assmagus on a dead baby comedy forum

ssmagus fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Feb 25, 2019

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