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BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Naffer posted:

I had actually thought about this option, but in the end convenience won out over saving $20-30 since this transcend "SSD" could be sourced directly from one of our approved suppliers. I hadn't noticed the abysmal rated random read and write speeds. Still, it should feel like a dream compared to a 15 year old 40GB drive.

That's actually really cool and appears to have a real SSD controller. Unfortunately it'd be a bit of a hassle to order it with our procurement system.

Depending on how much space there is to accommodate the adapter, something like this plus any SATA SSD could have been an option:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MU023LO

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Naffer
Oct 26, 2004

Not a good chemist

BobHoward posted:

Depending on how much space there is to accommodate the adapter, something like this plus any SATA SSD could have been an option:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MU023LO

That's a really cool item. I might go that way if I'm unhappy with this IDE SSD.

Klyith posted:

Yeah but then did you look at the prices for the CF card itself? Those aren't cheap these days.


Nah you made the right choice. Assuming your science instrument is writing data it collects to the drive, you want something more robust than a random flash card. And that drive isn't stupidly priced for a low-demand specialized product.

Now you have to worry about is all the caps on the VIA mobo drying out and needing to be replaced. :v:
Something new to worry about of course! A cursory inspection shows only one bloated cap. It's on a little daughterboard that seems to run the front USB ports on this thing. Honestly front USB ports on an unpatched XP system seem like a surefire way to autorun a virus off a USB stick.

On the scale of things in my lab, this is actually a relatively cheap instrument. It's old and has already been depreciated down to nothing, but it still works and a new version would cost at least 15K.
It's also definitely not the oldest PC-powered thing I've used by far. About 5 years ago I spent about a year using an instrument that was running NT 4.0 and THAT was network connected. It turns out you can actually get Windows 7 and NT 4.0 to talk to each other.

BeastOfExmoor
Aug 19, 2003

I will be gone, but not forever.
I've been hearing about these high cost industrial and scientific instruments that are controlled by ancient PCs for so long now. Did the companies in these industries smarten up and start releasing things that could be more easily maintained long term or are we just going to be seeing the same issues for the next few decades?

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

BeastOfExmoor posted:

I've been hearing about these high cost industrial and scientific instruments that are controlled by ancient PCs for so long now. Did the companies in these industries smarten up and start releasing things that could be more easily maintained long term or are we just going to be seeing the same issues for the next few decades?

No and it’s getting worse, for example most oscilloscopes now run windows, and most of those I have seen are still on windows 98 or maybe windows 7.

Plus they boot off ancient HDDs so it takes forever for them to start up.

Laslow
Jul 18, 2007

BeastOfExmoor posted:

I've been hearing about these high cost industrial and scientific instruments that are controlled by ancient PCs for so long now. Did the companies in these industries smarten up and start releasing things that could be more easily maintained long term or are we just going to be seeing the same issues for the next few decades?
I think the differences in how Windows 7 and 10 operate and “behave” so to speak are big enough to ensure that we’ll be seeing those same types of issues for a good while yet.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


BeastOfExmoor posted:

I've been hearing about these high cost industrial and scientific instruments that are controlled by ancient PCs for so long now. Did the companies in these industries smarten up and start releasing things that could be more easily maintained long term or are we just going to be seeing the same issues for the next few decades?

The CNC router at a friends company has the actual logic handled by PLCs, but they're told what to do by a Windows 7 PC bolted to the side of the machine, which has a twin located on a pedestal that can be placed further away from the machine if you need to pull up a stool and do more involved work. I think the industry just solves the obsolescence problem by upgrading the bits before they are totally unsupportable, but that depends on the company that makes the machine continuing to exist.

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008
I've got a 500gb 970 evo for a boot drive that's getting full because games are huge these days. Would I be wasting my money if I bought another NVME drive just for games? Or should I just get like an 860 evo?

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

I've got a 500gb 970 evo for a boot drive that's getting full because games are huge these days. Would I be wasting my money if I bought another NVME drive just for games? Or should I just get like an 860 evo?

Just get a SATA 860 evo yeah, that’s how I roll.

Anyone have a chart with nvme vs sata price per gig? I’m wondering when they’re going to converge. There’s not much reason nvme should be more other than a bit more work on the pcb side running 4 rx tx lanes vs 1. This’d also be the added pins on the controller IC, slightly higher bus speeds etc.

Naffer
Oct 26, 2004

Not a good chemist

Laslow posted:

I think the differences in how Windows 7 and 10 operate and “behave” so to speak are big enough to ensure that we’ll be seeing those same types of issues for a good while yet.

I have a half million dollar instrument on Windows 7 32 bit that is less than 5 years old. Really not looking forward to W7 EoL on January 14, 2020.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Thanks Ants posted:

I think the industry just solves the obsolescence problem by upgrading the bits before they are totally unsupportable, but that depends on the company that makes the machine continuing to exist. suggesting you upgrade your broken equipment to their newer model!

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

I've got a 500gb 970 evo for a boot drive that's getting full because games are huge these days. Would I be wasting my money if I bought another NVME drive just for games? Or should I just get like an 860 evo?

Yes, that is a waste for games. Get a 1tb sata drive, whatever decent brand is cheap on your preferred store. Adata SU800, crucial BX500, the Samsung QVO* which is now the cheapest 1tb drive on amazon. Newegg has an open box WD Blue for $99 right now.

*only buy this if your future plans for the drive will only be games and media storage

Or if you can stand to wait flash memory is predicted to continue to get cheaper this year.

priznat posted:

There’s not much reason nvme should be more

"because we can." As long as NVMe is faster, they can sell them at a premium to people who want the fastest thing even if the only thing they run that shows it are benchmarks.


Also, more charitably, I bet there's still a fair number of returns of nvme drives sold to people who don't have nvme slots or have mobos that can't boot them. Higher cost of business for the retailers.

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

priznat posted:

Just get a SATA 860 evo yeah, that’s how I roll.

Anyone have a chart with nvme vs sata price per gig? I’m wondering when they’re going to converge. There’s not much reason nvme should be more other than a bit more work on the pcb side running 4 rx tx lanes vs 1. This’d also be the added pins on the controller IC, slightly higher bus speeds etc.

SATA controllers are old, well known, and (I'm assuming) require little to no tweaking. In general, the NVMe spec is still growing, new features being added in, and controllers are being refreshed and updated. Price premium is a thing that is milked hard but there is lots of actual work that is going on that you never see because you don't really care about a bunch of stuff the NVMe spec lets you do

WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Feb 27, 2019

I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

Klyith posted:

Newegg has an open box WD Blue for $99 right now.



Have you got a link for this, I'm not sure if i can load Newegg openbox store because im in Australia.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

BeastOfExmoor posted:

I've been hearing about these high cost industrial and scientific instruments that are controlled by ancient PCs for so long now. Did the companies in these industries smarten up and start releasing things that could be more easily maintained long term or are we just going to be seeing the same issues for the next few decades?

Welcome to my world mother fucker

XP :(

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006


Just wear the fucking mask, Bob

I don't care how many people I probably infected with COVID-19 while refusing to wear a mask, my comfort is far more important than the health and safety of everyone around me!

Klyith posted:

Yes, that is a waste for games. Get a 1tb sata drive, whatever decent brand is cheap on your preferred store. Adata SU800, crucial BX500, the Samsung QVO* which is now the cheapest 1tb drive on amazon. Newegg has an open box WD Blue for $99 right now.

I have never had any luck with Newegg open box stuff. Feel like you do their qa for them

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

I would blow Dane Cook posted:

Have you got a link for this, I'm not sure if i can load Newegg openbox store because im in Australia.

here, but in australia it probably won't work.


Bob Morales posted:

I have never had any luck with Newegg open box stuff. Feel like you do their qa for them

I've had mixed results. For something like a drive that's a single object with no parts I'd feel ok with it.

But a number of years ago I got an open box CPU cooler that was missing half its mounting screws, and had an additional mounting bracket for some completely different heatsink shoved in the box. For the price I was ok with a trip to the hardware store to buy some machine screws that fit. (this being before the hyper 212 when tower heatpipe coolers were still somewhat expensive)

WhyteRyce
Dec 30, 2001

I got cheap once and bought an open box mobo from Newegg and of course the pins were bent

Peanut3141
Oct 30, 2009
SanDisk SSD Plus 1TB going for $99 on Amazon today. Would this be a bad choice for installing a dozen of today's 70GB game installs?

Already have a 500GB 860 EVO for OS/apps and a 1TB WD Blue HDD for video content. Can't keep more than a half-dozen games installed on the EVO and don't want to experience the pain of HDD loading screens.

TIA

Lambert
Apr 15, 2018

by Fluffdaddy
Fallen Rib
The Sandisk is pretty good, seems like a deal.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy
I can't even order from newegg anymore. like 15 years of sales and then my account got hacked, someone ordered a SSD on a stolen CC and even though I caught it, they banned me for life. Or until I get a new CC# and address.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007



redeyes posted:

I can't even order from newegg anymore. like 15 years of sales and then my account got hacked, someone ordered a SSD on a stolen CC and even though I caught it, they banned me for life. Or until I get a new CC# and address.

They still can have some good deals, but I just went through a pain-in-the-rear end return process that has convinced me to spend a little more if necessary to order elsewhere.

Rosoboronexport
Jun 14, 2006

Get in the bath, baby!
Ramrod XTreme
I have a question about an old drive type. I recently bought a refurbished HP Elitebook that had Samsung PM851 128 gb drive (OEM version of 840 EVO). I replaced it with a MX500 so now I have a spare ssd. I was thinking about replacing my desktop's SSD OS drive (Kingston SSDNow V300 60 gb with the fast toggle-mode MLC) with it. While I'm not in dire need of space, I could install a game or two on the SSD instead of keeping them on the normal HDD.

However as this is an OEM version of the 840 EVO, at least HP has not provided it with the performance-fixing firmware and it's not supported by Samsung Magician. Dell provides a firmware update to their version of the drive, but the numbers and letters are smaller in that firmware that reads on the top of my SSD. So I'm wondering how bad of an idea would it be to replace the Kingston with this, Kingston still has about 70% life left. Or should I just sell this drive for a couple of bucks? Edit: the drive is Rev.0 and has been manufactured 12/2014, could it be possible that it has the fixed firmware from the factory?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

Rosoboronexport posted:

Dell provides a firmware update to their version of the drive, but the numbers and letters are smaller in that firmware that reads on the top of my SSD.
Edit: the drive is Rev.0 and has been manufactured 12/2014, could it be possible that it has the fixed firmware from the factory?

The 2nd fully-fixed firmware for the 840 evo wasn't released until early 2015. I supposed it's possible that they were shipping drives with the better firmware from the factory before they released the patch to end-users? But I'm also not totally sure that the version numbers are consistent if they went to different OEMs, or even that higher numbers always equals newer. For Dell EXT08D0Q is newer than EXT49D0Q. (e: maybe? newer website date but maybe older firmware? :wtc:)

It looks like plenty of people have had success flashing pm851s from other OEMs with the Dell firmware, so you could just flash it and say whatever.


If you're thinking of putting it into a desktop, why not use both SSDs? Keep the OS on the old reliable one, put games on the questionable one. That should also minimize the downsides of the read bug, because if you're actively playing the game the cells holding the data will be read frequently and thus refreshed before they go totally stale.

Rosoboronexport
Jun 14, 2006

Get in the bath, baby!
Ramrod XTreme

Klyith posted:

If you're thinking of putting it into a desktop, why not use both SSDs? Keep the OS on the old reliable one, put games on the questionable one. That should also minimize the downsides of the read bug, because if you're actively playing the game the cells holding the data will be read frequently and thus refreshed before they go totally stale.


I.. I hadn't thought of that :doh: I'll just do that and not bother with the firmware route. My Z77 motherboard has a free SATA3 port and cable ready. Thanks!

Fhqwhgads
Jul 18, 2003

I AM THE ONLY ONE IN THIS GAME WHO GETS LAID
I'm looking to get a new OS/Games drive and want to go with a 1TB NVMe. All I know is Samsung EVO but it seems like that's always on the more expensive side. On Anandtech's charts it says the HP EX920 is the recommendation in that segment, is that still the case or should I pay up a little for like the WD Black or go with the 970 EVO?

Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade


The 970 and the WD black have the same write endurance for the 1 TB size, but the WD Black will likely be cheaper.

I wouldn't do the HP EX920, it has half the write endurace of either of the above.

BeastOfExmoor
Aug 19, 2003

I will be gone, but not forever.

Binary Badger posted:

The 970 and the WD black have the same write endurance for the 1 TB size, but the WD Black will likely be cheaper.

I wouldn't do the HP EX920, it has half the write endurace of either of the above.

Write endurance isn't going to matter much for a gaming drive. A 1TB EX920, with the revised endurance rating (it was initially released with a lower warranty and write endurance) has a write endurance of 650TB. Let's say you write an average 20GB a day, which is actually probably high for a games-only drive. At the rate it'd be 89 years before you hit the endurance rating. Even at 100GB per day, it'd still be almost 18 years before you hit it.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

Fhqwhgads posted:

should I pay up a little for like the WD Black or go with the 970 EVO?

Do you like spending $75-100 on something you'll never notice?


Binary Badger posted:

I wouldn't do the HP EX920, it has half the write endurace of either of the above.

An OS and videogames person won't use even a quarter of the endurance of the lower EX920, this is an amazing non-factor.

"Five tons of cheese isn't enough, I need 10 tons". You can't eat even a single ton of cheese!

Naffer
Oct 26, 2004

Not a good chemist

Klyith posted:

An OS and videogames person won't use even a quarter of the endurance of the lower EX920, this is an amazing non-factor.

"Five tons of cheese isn't enough, I need 10 tons". You can't eat even a single ton of cheese!

2 of the 3 SSD's I've ever owned have failed, and it's always been a controller problem not a write endurance problem. I think in the early SSD days people thought a lot about endurance, but that doesn't seem to be (anecdotally) why drives fail.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness
Endurance was a lot more of a (theoretical) concern when a "reasonably priced" drive was 64-128GB, and you could therefore expect even Joe Normal to rack up a fairly large number of total drive writes throughout a few years. The long-term endurance of the cells was also not particularly well understood, so there was a lot of conservative guess work going on.

Now that you can get a 480/512GB drive for $100, though, it just isn't a worry anymore.

Palladium
May 8, 2012

Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

DrDork posted:

Now that you can get a 480/512GB 1TB drive for $100, though, it just isn't a worry anymore.

It didn't help that the earliest SSD controllers sucked at write amplification and garbage collection.

My M550 1TB an OS drive for 4 years still has 97% endurance left with 120TB written according to the SMART.

DrDork
Dec 29, 2003
commanding officer of the Army of Dorkness

Palladium posted:

It didn't help that the earliest SSD controllers sucked at write amplification and garbage collection.

Garbage collection is what you did when the drive hard locked :haw:

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy

DrDork posted:

Garbage collection is what you did when the drive hard locked :haw:

Thanks Sandforce.

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。
DO NOT BUY OCZ

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002

by Fluffdaddy

Phone posted:

DO NOT BUY OCZ

Hilariously OCZ is now owned by Toshiba and if you can get over the branding, the SSDs are great quality now.

GRINDCORE MEGGIDO
Feb 28, 1985


My old x25-m is still chugging along in a laptop somewhere. What a trooper of a drive.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week

Naffer posted:

I think in the early SSD days people thought a lot about endurance, but that doesn't seem to be (anecdotally) why drives fail.

Tech sites serve two audiences: Joe Enthusiast who wants to load video games faster, and the guy who wants to build a fast caching system for his company's monster database.

Endurance has never been a major problem for the former, even with tiny drives. It was and probably still is a concern for the later. But back in the day there was a lot more grey area for what was a home user product and what was a professional one. So I think tech sites were looking at drives specced for 100TB of writes or so and saying it could be a problem, and the enthusiasts didn't realize that is a hell of a lot more writes than they'd ever do.

Add in this factor:

DrDork posted:

The long-term endurance of the cells was also not particularly well understood, so there was a lot of conservative guess work going on.
and you get a lot of unnecessary concern.


And also before SSDs, did anyone actually keep track of how many writes they did per day? One thing I remember from the early SSD days was people looking at a program in Process Explorer and saying "look it's continually writing to disk the whole time it's open. it's killing my ssd!" They didn't understand that 99% of it was just rewriting a buffer and never hitting the disk.

Atomizer
Jun 24, 2007



Adata is having their monthly(?) discounts on Rakuten. Check the page for any of their drives that you're interested in (while being logged into your account on the site) and there should be a relevant discount code under "Show Details." The SU800 1 TB 2.5" is $95 and the 2 TB version of the same is $187, for example. (Also things like the NVMe SX8200 and DRAM are included.)

Or if you need NVMe, this Bay-area chain has the 2 TB 660p for $220. Not bad, we're closing in on $100/TB for NVMe storage! :neckbeard:

Atomizer fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Mar 2, 2019

Phone
Jul 30, 2005

親子丼をほしい。

redeyes posted:

Hilariously OCZ is now owned by Toshiba and if you can get over the branding, the SSDs are great quality now.

i was making fun of the ssd thread title for something like 4 or 5 years

Installing the HP EX920 yesterday was probably the most “i live in the future now” experienced ive had while handling something. It takes me longer to try to find where my phone is on the desk than it does to be back at the lock screen for windows 10 during a restart.

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apropos man
Sep 5, 2016

You get a hundred and forty one thousand years and you're out in eight!
I've had one of the blue, OCZ Arc 100 drives since... since they were on the market.

It's the 240GB version and it doesn't get a great deal of use these days, but it's still going.

At the moment it's plugged into my gaming machine as a Steam drive but I haven't shifted any games onto it. It's had games on it in the past, though.

It used to be my boot drive for about a year. Probably back around 2015. Maybe earlier.

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