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Samuel Clemens
Oct 4, 2013

I think we should call the Avengers.

Shaocaholica posted:

But is it more progressive to have a higher age or lower age :thunk:

There was a time when many left-wing groups in Europe advocated lowering the age of consent, but I think those movements disappeared somewhere in the 90s.

Samuel Clemens fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Feb 27, 2019

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El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010

Vagabundo posted:

Honestly, I'm surprised he didn't get called out earlier.

I think it's largely because his prime as a famous person took place during a time where society seemed okay* with "boys will be boys". I mean, in that same period, Steven Tyler and Ted Nugent both had minors that they formally adopted so they could take them over state lines and gently caress them. And the girls' parents signed off on that poo poo!**


*Women had even less power than they do now, so their cries of "bullshit!" fell on deaf ears

**I am quite sure a lot of money changed hands, not that it magically becomes okay if that was the case, just adding greater context

El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Feb 28, 2019

Sucrose
Dec 9, 2009

Skwirl posted:

I think the laws should be such that a high school senior isn't a registered sex offender for life because they had consensual sex with a high school junior, but after age, like 20ish the other person needs to be 18.

IMO, the unrestricted age of consent should be 18, but with a four-year close age exception for teenage minors. The age of consent in my state is 16, but a 35 year old dating a 17 year old is still pervy as hell. Conversely, a 19 year old shouldn’t ever be at risk of being prosecuted as a sex offender because they have a 17 year old girlfriend/boyfriend.

Slutitution
Jun 26, 2018

by Nyc_Tattoo

Grouchio posted:

Or use this map:



lol What a depressing planet.

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
Lol Europe.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



I feel like the color scheme should be the opposite.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames
So Asia Argento really just facing absolutely no consequences whatsoever huh? That’s really weird. Wish she’d have pulled an Al Franken at least for the sake of setting a good example instead of being a massive hypocritical, victim blaming piece of poo poo

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012


Bust Rodd posted:

So Asia Argento really just facing absolutely no consequences whatsoever huh? That’s really weird. Wish she’d have pulled an Al Franken at least for the sake of setting a good example instead of being a massive hypocritical, victim blaming piece of poo poo

The Daily Mail keeps trying to make it stick https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-6751817/Asia-Argento-heads-Lanvin-Paris-Fashion-Week-amid-shocking-underage-sex-claims.html but nobody else is even talking about her because the accuser isn't talking to cops, even though they're saying publicly they've reached out to him multiple times

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Krankenstyle posted:

I feel like the color scheme should be the opposite.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. That map really seems to have a "green means go!" mentality, and it's hosed up.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames

thrawn527 posted:

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. That map really seems to have a "green means go!" mentality, and it's hosed up.

It’s a map of countries where you can gently caress kids, who do you think it’s for?

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours

Chris James 2 posted:

The Daily Mail keeps trying to make it stick https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-6751817/Asia-Argento-heads-Lanvin-Paris-Fashion-Week-amid-shocking-underage-sex-claims.html but nobody else is even talking about her because the accuser isn't talking to cops, even though they're saying publicly they've reached out to him multiple times

Doesn't help that the Italian press, which is insanely far right, has been trying to rip her to pieces for a few years now.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I think the question of a reasonable age of consent depends on the exceptions being made. If we're talking about "it's always a crime to have sexual relations with someone under this age under any circumstances, no exceptions" then 14 seems reasonable. If we're talking about "it's never a crime to have sex with someone under this age, unless there's violence or coercion" then even 18 might be too low, realistically speaking. Between the ages of 14-21 there's a lot of grey area such that it makes sense to allow legislators and judges to exercise discretion.

Age of consent laws aren't about enforcing our ideas of what's weird and what's normal, even if our ideas are well-founded; they are about protecting people who are vulnerable. For example:

quote:

Conversely, a 19 year old shouldn’t ever be at risk of being prosecuted as a sex offender because they have a 17 year old girlfriend/boyfriend.

I don't know this is true. I don't think it's automatically the case that such a relationship should be illegal, but there is a potential for the relationship to be unequal to the point the 17-year-old should be entitled to legal protections beyond what would be available to two adults in a relationship. As much as we might like it to be so for the sake of convenience, the truth is that there's no hard and fast dividing line between "this relationship is cool and good" and "this relationship constitutes a sexual offence by its very nature."

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
Go directly to jail for sexing someone 1-day younger than you :smugdog:

teacup
Dec 20, 2006

= M I L K E R S =
Yeah surely some of these laws are there for the courts to have some wiggle room to scale up or down when needed.

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012


Not surprising unfortunately given what some in here assumed considering he was friends with Singer and Spacey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQBNZaD8RCg

quote:

"Well frankly, I’m waiting for someone to accuse me of something, and me wondering whether they’re not telling the truth and me having forgotten," McKellen said.

"With the couple of names you’ve mentioned, people I’ve worked with, both of them were in the closet," McKellen explained. "And hence all their problems as people and their relationships with other people, if they had been able to be open about themselves and their desires, they wouldn’t have started abusing people in the way they’ve been accused."

"Whether they should be forced to stop working, that’s debatable," McKellen said. "I rather think that’s up to the public. Do you want to see someone who has been accused of something that you don’t approve of again? If the answer’s no, then you won’t buy a ticket, you won’t turn on the television. But there may be others for who that’s not a consideration. And it’s difficult to be exactly black and white."

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
Way to oversimplify Gandolf. Studios need to sign off on hundreds of millions of dollars and years of production time before anyone can even decide on (refusing to) buying a ticket. Best let the lawyers and actuaries decide their fate :eng101:

Goddamn Particle
Oct 10, 2013

Fan of Britches
Not to mention he's using the repression argument, aka the celibate priest excuse. But our society puts constant pressure on women to repress their sexuality (or at least reshape it into a form that's palatable to and controllable by straight men) and the number of female perpetrators is lower than the number of male ones.

As for the fear of being wrongly accused, it could be a misplaced but genuine concern, but it could also be explained by the mentality described here:
It's Not That Men Don't Know What Consent Is. I know it's about college students but it sounds like behavior that could continue through adulthood if there's nothing to discourage it.

quote:

In my own interviews with high school and college students conducted over the past two years, young men that I like enormously — friendly, thoughtful, bright, engaging young men — have “sort of” raped girls, have pushed women’s heads down to get oral sex, have taken a Snapchat video of a prom date performing oral sex and sent it to the baseball team. They all described themselves as “good guys.” But the fact is, a “really good guy” can do a really bad thing.

The guys in the article could be the past versions of the men we're seeing today who say they're afraid to even talk to people in case they get in trouble.

Some of these people are looking back on past behavior they rationalized at the time, and that they've now learned is predatory. They're trying to reconcile the belief they're innocent with the knowledge they've done things that meet the definition of assault, and the easiest way out is to believe in witch hunts, gold diggers and political correctness gone mad. They're basically saying "I'm afraid of being falsely accused of doing that thing I did."

A slightly less awful explanation is "my friends can't be criminals and I'm not a criminal, therefore my risk of being accused is the same as theirs."

Note: I don't know if McKellen has done anything and am waiting to see if there's any more information.

Goddamn Particle fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Mar 2, 2019

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



The core, I think, is a “really good guy” can do a really bad thing. from your quote above.

What separates the chaff from the wheat is how the surrounding world reacts, and how they themselves handle it.

An intentionally bad example: A child grows up and does child things, and maybe sometimes pushes other children to the floor. Nobody reacts to this, or it is treated like an every day event. This, every time. In school, the child might bump into another child that becomes bruised. Now maybe an adult raises their voice but it is hushed down, we don't want any trouble. In high school, the kid walks through crowds with their sholders out, knocking everyone away like a bad movie villain. Some voices, hushed again.

You get where I'm going.

I really think the nurture component is so important. I'm not blaming the feminists or the marxists or anyone, just trying to say that I think it's super important to let kids know if they do a bad thing (you dont even have to hit them or make them cry, just honest clear communication works) before they grow up and the bad thing is also grown up.

Some weirdo who grows up in a bubble is clearly going to molest and steal and what-not, they don't have any natural incliation not to

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Krankenstyle posted:

Some weirdo who grows up in a bubble is clearly going to molest and steal and what-not, they don't have any natural incliation not to

They also don't have the same inclination, based on societal pressure and "nurture," to commit sexual assault either. The nurture component is incredibly important, and the problem is rape culture. Empathy is a quality we share with other great apes, so in the absence of the culture that surrounds us, I think most people would choose not to do things that would hurt other people. But we do live in a culture, and it's a culture that tells us (explicitly in some cases) that blurred lines are okay.

Carthag Tuek
Oct 15, 2005

Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
slægt skal følge slægters gang



Yes, agreed, well put!

I muddled my point before, "blurred lines" is a great example. A personal Overton window -- whatever you do or dont do, the reaction of your peers tells you whether that was wrong or great or somewhere in between. That huge blurred area in between can move and push the lines for wrong/great in either direction...

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Witchfinder General

I understand where Gandalf is coming from with that statement that not leading a honest life leads to dishonesty but kind of not the only answer.

Sucrose
Dec 9, 2009

Bust Rodd posted:

So Asia Argento really just facing absolutely no consequences whatsoever huh? That’s really weird. Wish she’d have pulled an Al Franken at least for the sake of setting a good example instead of being a massive hypocritical, victim blaming piece of poo poo

She got dropped from X Factor Italy last year.

Hollismason posted:

I understand where Gandalf is coming from with that statement that not leading a honest life leads to dishonesty but kind of not the only answer.

I honestly think he’s sort of right about the closet leading to these sex crimes, but not really for the reasons he stated. I think it’s more that it’s a lot easier to predatory behavior to occur and be gotten away with when everything is occuring in the shadows. I think non-consentual behaviors and adults preying on teens who were way too young is easier to hide and be overlooked when society at large considers all homosexual behavior to be deviant and something that needs to be hidden.

Plus there was the fact that way back in the ‘90s Anthony Rapp told Out Magazine about how Kevin Spacey had tried to have sex with him when he was 14, but they decided not to reveal Spacey’s name in the incident because it was the magazine’s policy not to out gay individuals who were still in the closet.

Sucrose fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 2, 2019

Shaocaholica
Oct 29, 2002

Fig. 5E
Social media is going to own so many people in the facebook generation.

Like if you sent a video of getting a BJ to the baseball team in high school, good luck with trying to do anything with your life other than middle management in a company nobody cares about.

Zogo
Jul 29, 2003

Star defense lawyer resigns from Weinstein team
https://www.france24.com/en/20190116-star-defense-lawyer-resigns-weinstein-team

R. Kelly’s first stop out of jail? The McDonald’s where he allegedly goes to pick up underage girls
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/r-kelly-first-stop-jail-041252461.html

Dolly Parton on sexual politics: ‘I’ve probably hit on some people myself!’
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/24/dolly-parton-on-sexual-politics-ive-probably-hit-on-some-people-myself

Trump Campaign Staffer Claims He Kissed Her Against Her Will in 2016: 'I Can Still See His Lips'
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/trump-campaign-staffer-claims-kissed-195036577.html

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Shaocaholica posted:

Social media is going to own so many people in the facebook generation.

Like if you sent a video of getting a BJ to the baseball team in high school, good luck with trying to do anything with your life other than middle management in a company nobody cares about.

What does consensual sex between teenagers have to do with this thread about adults committing sexual assault?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Well the poster didn't indicate if the porn being filmed and sent to classmates was consensual.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Shaocaholica posted:

Social media is going to own so many people in the facebook generation.

Like if you sent a video of getting a BJ to the baseball team in high school, good luck with trying to do anything with your life other than middle management in a company nobody cares about.
Sometimes I wonder if eventually the sheer overload of people ruining their lives through one social media mistake will cause punishments to be lessened.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

Grouchio posted:

Sometimes I wonder if eventually the sheer overload of people ruining their lives through one social media mistake will cause punishments to be lessened.

probably only for rich white guys.

see: Kavanaugh, Brett

I, Butthole
Jun 30, 2007

Begin the operations of the gas chambers, gas schools, gas universities, gas libraries, gas museums, gas dance halls, and gas threads, etcetera.
I DEMAND IT

DC Murderverse posted:

probably only for rich white guys.

LOL if you think that isn't the case already

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Grouchio posted:

Sometimes I wonder if eventually the sheer overload of people ruining their lives through one social media mistake will cause punishments to be lessened.

What does "one social media mistake" have to do with any of the people discussed in this thread?

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"

I, Butthole posted:

LOL if you think that isn't the case already

that's why i cited something that literally happened in the last year

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

Cease to Hope posted:

What does "one social media mistake" have to do with any of the people discussed in this thread?
"A high-schooler gets labelled a rapist because someone saw him making out with his girlfriend and convinced the school to suspend him" kind of social mistake.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Grouchio posted:

"A high-schooler gets labelled a rapist because someone saw him making out with his girlfriend and convinced the school to suspend him" kind of social mistake.

Huh? Why would it be the person's mistake if someone else was the one telling on him? And why would he be called a rapist for making out with his girlfriend? Is she 10 or something? Is this some Evangelical school thing I'm unfamiliar with?

I'm very confused by these high school sex examples. Like I'm still trying to figure out that last one where the girl either wanted a video of her giving a blowjob spread around the school or we're saying its cool for someone to spread around non consensual revenge/boasting porn?

Like, to me "one mistake" still feels like the "we were all edgy teens" or "boys will be boys" excuses. If it really is one mistake that can be explained and apologized for then I think things tend to work out. If the "mistake" was a crime or a really terrible thing then its a lot harder to make amends for. And in a lot of these cases the fundamental problem is that the person who made "the mistake" doesn't consider it a mistake and isn't sorry for it, or says they are and then gets mad that everyone hasn't immediately forgiven them.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013
🍀👽🆚🪖🏋

This is a discussion more for this thread

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3864084&perpage=40&pagenumber=25

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Grouchio posted:

"A high-schooler gets labelled a rapist because someone saw him making out with his girlfriend and convinced the school to suspend him" kind of social mistake.

Again, what does this have to do with the examples in this thread? All of these actors and directors and producers are facing consequences for repeated predatory behavior as adults from positions of power over a long-rear end time. Those are some very important differences.

Let's head off this slippery-slope argument bullshit at the pass.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

My apologies.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 12, 2015

by Cyrano4747

Cease to Hope posted:

What does "one social media mistake" have to do with any of the people discussed in this thread?

I mean, Terry Crews just said a dumb thing about gay couples with kids, and this is causing people to decide that it was actually good that some dude grabbed his nuts.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.

Well I don't know who is deciding that but they're assholes and lovely people.

But in fairness Terry Crews is making a few more than one social media mistake at the moment. More like a really prolonged, stubborn, "this probably didn't have to be a thing" social media mistake. And if he goes to bed and wakes up saying "Yeah, I made the right call on Twitter last night and I should double down" things might suck for him for awhile. If he says "I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I didn't mean it that way" then he'll probably be largely ok except for the sort of people who wish sexual assault on people they disagree with.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

LORD OF BOOTY posted:

I mean, Terry Crews just said a dumb thing about gay couples with kids, and this is causing people to decide that it was actually good that some dude grabbed his nuts.

I don't think holding victims to the absurd standard that they must be perfect people with the implicit threat of revoking all sympathy if they aren't is in any way unique to social media

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SunshineDanceParty
Feb 7, 2006

One Road. Two Friends. One Ass.
Yeah the whole perfect victim thing is still a huge deterrent to reporting abuse.

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