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teacup posted:Not doubting the documentary. I’ve always thought MJs behaviour was suspect and it was weird people accepted it. I’m used to potentially deceptive storytelling from a trial lawyer perspective, but documentaries can take it to a whole other level. Lawyers will spend days coaching witnesses to make sure they remember things just right and don’t accidentally say something that should be omitted, and witnesses are happy to go along, either willingly because it benefits them or just because it’s actually pretty easy to manipulate someone’s memories (psychologists are really good at this too). But eventually those witnesses get one shot at doing it live in front of a jury, so there’s still a chance of failure because the other side can cross-examine or impeach them. While in a documentary, they can re-take anything that isn’t good enough, they get to cut out any unfavorable footage, and they don’t have to worry about the other side getting to ask any tough questions. Then add in that a documentary isn’t hindered by a judge enforcing any evidentiary rules, and the other side isn’t given an opportunity to put on its own witnesses and evidence, and I trust documentaries even less than I trust lawyers. Who I don’t trust at all. Lawyers do this because it works really well to persuade normal people who aren’t so filled with cynicism and distrust that they assume everyone is lying all the time. As for whether Jackson molested anyone, I don't know, accept that I will never really know, and therefore don't care enough to go through all of the arguments for and against.
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Mar 9, 2019 23:01
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I haven't seen the doc, but this is actually a good point. I believed the Christine Blasey Ford testimony because she was doing it live, unedited and had everything to lose by coming forward and speaking out against a powerful man in a room full of powerful men. An edited documentary is a different beast altogether, I mean I'm not saying these men are lying but... it wouldn't be hard to do retakes and edits to push the narrative the director wants to push.
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Mar 10, 2019 00:06
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Zogo posted:Maybe the same restaurateur who already took some flak for the first bail. 
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Mar 10, 2019 00:23
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King Vidiot posted:I haven't seen the doc, but this is actually a good point. I believed the Christine Blasey Ford testimony because she was doing it live, unedited and had everything to lose by coming forward and speaking out against a powerful man in a room full of powerful men. An edited documentary is a different beast altogether, I mean I'm not saying these men are lying but... it wouldn't be hard to do retakes and edits to push the narrative the director wants to push. I mean, what do they have to gain, especially with him dead now? Are any suing his estate? Do you think they stand to make enough to offset the trauma and roughness of speaking out like this?
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Mar 10, 2019 00:30
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DC Murderverse posted:I’m not gonna defend what he did but it’s very telling that in literally the same week, a black man gets 16 felony charges for faking a hate crime and a rich white guy gets under 4 years in prison for committing so many white collar crimes that his names is basically synonymous with “does lots of crimes” Jussie is not gonna get 4 years. As for MJ, yeah, it's a biased documentary meant to make people think he molested children, but the most important part is that two other men who spent large portions of their childhood around MJ are now accusing him of molesting them. Biased documentary or not you can't change that. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Mar 10, 2019 |
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Mar 10, 2019 00:50
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sexpig by night posted:yea it's entirely possible that Blanket went through his life genuinely believing 'oh, no those guys talking about that stuff are just making poo poo up about my dad' and that was his first moment of 'ooooh gently caress no dad was probably horrible'. It's really a little ghoulish to start speculating if someone was molested based on just social media. I was speculating that he (and/or his brother Prince) was molested based on the fact that, by all accounts, their father actively molested other boys that he had significant access to. I didn't hear about the "not talking" thing until I'd written half the post and googled his name out of curiosity, and I was fairly shocked to hear it, because it's an extreme response to anything. But no, my concern that something happened to one or both of them is based solely on the fact that if an actively abusive pedophile has children under their personal care, there just is a fairly high possibility that they were abused. The biggest determining factor in these situations is always access. I'm sorry if it's a ghoulish thing to speculate about, but it's more out of legitimate concern and the fact that if someone comes clean about this sort of thing and copes with it when they're younger, they have a far better chance of eking out a more normal adulthood. I'm intrigued by the "not talking" because it's both a very distinct cry for help, coupled with a total inability to cope with or even talk on the most basic level about what is wrong. I find it troubling because it's literally textbook behavior for someone coping with abuse trauma, particular familial abuse of one kind or another. True, that trauma could be anything, but this documentary dealt with something fairly specific. Other than that, my only speculation is the fact that I'm very sure his father was an abusive pedophile. kaworu fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Mar 10, 2019 |
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Mar 10, 2019 00:57
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Sucrose posted:Jussie is not gonna get 4 years. I very much have faith in the Chicago court's ability to completely gently caress over a Black man. I personally think he probably faked the attack, but absolutely understand other people thinking Chicago PD is framing him, and the info I have now would not be enough for me to render a guilty verdict if I were a juror.
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Mar 10, 2019 02:14
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AngusPodgorny posted:Now there’s a documentary telling them to believe he did it. Which sounds pithy and condescending, but the documentary was created to persuade people of a position, by someone whose profession is persuading people, so it's no surprise it has persuaded people. yeah you’re right we should demand receipts before we decide if the man who slept in the same bed as children every day he could and tried to separate them from their parents as much as possible and had multiple allegations levied against him did anything bad. It might just be editing.
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Mar 10, 2019 22:35
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Sure Jackson sent hundreds of faxed love letters to an 8 year old, but did the documentary show any of the many faxes he sent that weren’t evidence of sex crimes? No, of course not. But I guess you sheep didn’t consider that did you? hmm??
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Mar 10, 2019 22:43
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Skwirl posted:I very much have faith in the Chicago court's ability to completely gently caress over a Black man. I personally think he probably faked the attack, but absolutely understand other people thinking Chicago PD is framing him, and the info I have now would not be enough for me to render a guilty verdict if I were a juror. Yes the info you have now wouldn’t be enough to render a guilty verdict. Luckily the jury that will render a verdict will see more than media reports and will see evidence. Seriously the conspiracy theory posts on this are approaching alt right shillary fbi secret lover text to take down trump levels. Dial it back guys. “I’ll wait till trial before I decide on a Chicago PD investigating a black man” = good. “He was obviously framed I believe the entire story of two white KKK supporters in Chicago at 2am who immediately recognised a black gay actor from a show no trump supporter would watch and then commit a huge hate crime that leaves no real injuries despite having a literal noose” = stupid hot take that makes you look stupid.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:51
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teacup posted:Yes the info you have now wouldn’t be enough to render a guilty verdict. Luckily the jury that will render a verdict will see more than media reports and will see evidence. The chicago PD literally ran a secret torture site to extract fake confessions out of black people my dude, it is an extremely healthy approach to be massively skeptical of anything they say or do ever.
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Mar 11, 2019 00:25
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No one knows poo poo about the Smollett case anymore
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Mar 11, 2019 01:06
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Drunkboxer posted:Sure Jackson sent hundreds of faxed love letters to an 8 year old, but did the documentary show any of the many faxes he sent that weren’t evidence of sex crimes? No, of course not. But I guess you sheep didn’t consider that did you? hmm?? Statistically, Ted Bundy didn’t kill most people
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Mar 11, 2019 01:18
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I'm old enough to know that no one "accepted" Jackson sleeping with kids; its that you also saw years of buildup of Jackson trying to be a kid again HIMSELF (multiple songs, a billion news stories, Neverland Ranch, etc.), that people attributed his sleepovers to the psychosis he developed from his abuse as a child. Everyone saw Jackson as asexual, especially since nobody heard of believable sexual action before or after the time of the alleged abuse (which is also weird for someone that was accused of being that level of abuser). He was chalked up as an easy target *because* of his weirdness as opposed to his weirdness being something accepted, by those that didn't believe he did it. Unlike most abuse cases, there was motive to accuse there (money), and issues of possible grooming on younger minds EITHER WAY, which changed things as well. We already went through this and all the debates in the 90s when it took over the news cycle for like a year; it is just some people's first introduction to it now, framed around a documentary, which is why we're going through it again, except with him not around to defend himself like before. It's still stuck as a "we will never know"; the doc didn't change much except shift it against Jackson a little more by adding 3rd parties hearing possible things. And yeah, black people also saw it as a setup against a (the most powerful at the time) black person, at the time. Darko fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 01:50
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I always wanted to defend Jackson (and did, for a while) because public/famous people who violate race/gender/sexuality norms (just ONE of the three) are often treated like poo poo in the media, and people are quick to accuse them of things like homosexuality or pedophilia - or in the case of race a host of other things. Jackson challenged peoples' thinking with regards to all 3, of course - he seemed to want to transcend not just race, but sexuality and gender, too. In a sense he must have conceived of himself as something other than human or 'godlike' or who the gently caress knows..
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Mar 11, 2019 01:59
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https://twitter.com/peltzmadeline/status/1104879848772829185
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Mar 11, 2019 02:01
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The only evidence I know of is 1) a check that says in the memo "training and nutrition," which is how the people in question make their living, the amount seems high for that, but not outrageously so, 2) Video of them buying rope, doesn't look great, but circumstantial, it's legal to buy rope and if they're cross fit trainers I always see rope when I walk buy the cross fit place near me, 3) A confession after being interrogated by the Chicago PD for 46 hours, I don't know what the number of black men who've confessed to crimes they didn't commit after being in police custody for 2 days is, but I bet it's shockingly high. The Central Park 5 all confessed after all.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:09
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kaworu posted:I always wanted to defend Jackson (and did, for a while) because public/famous people who violate race/gender/sexuality norms (just ONE of the three) are often treated like poo poo in the media, and people are quick to accuse them of things like homosexuality or pedophilia - or in the case of race a host of other things. Jackson challenged peoples' thinking with regards to all 3, of course - he seemed to want to transcend not just race, but sexuality and gender, too. In a sense he must have conceived of himself as something other than human or 'godlike' or who the gently caress knows.. Well, again, we saw day after day of news stories of Jackson trying to recreate his missed childhood before this happened, pre 24 hour news media, which kind of changed public reaction at the time, too. Everyone already knew he was crazy at that point. Back then, I remember my judgment was that his childishness probably had him revert to an "Ill show you mine if you show me yours" kind of thing (which is still horrible misconduct and child pornography and results in jailtime), but even younger, I still understood I had no idea what actually happened. As the years passed and nothing else happened, it started shifting things the other way, since the alleged incidents were so isolated. Robert Kelly is the reverse though. All us older Internet people saw the receipts and saw the clear pattern before and after. I rail on anyone currently trying to defend him even now on social media.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:09
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Skwirl posted:The only evidence I know of is 1) a check that says in the memo "training and nutrition," which is how the people in question make their living, the amount seems high for that, but not outrageously so, 2) Video of them buying rope, doesn't look great, but circumstantial, it's legal to buy rope and if they're cross fit trainers I always see rope when I walk buy the cross fit place near me, 3) A confession after being interrogated by the Chicago PD for 46 hours, I don't know what the number of black men who've confessed to crimes they didn't commit after being in police custody for 2 days is, but I bet it's shockingly high. The Central Park 5 all confessed after all. That story was just too convenient for me. The big issue is that MAGA supremacists wouldn't watch his show and Fox wasn't talking about him, so there's no reason for him to be a target. Combined with modern social activists trying their best to prop themselves up way too much. Again, there's motive for false claim there. He's not even getting much defense on "black social media now, but part of that may be the gay angle, too. Darko fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 02:13
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Yeah, a big part of why people wanted to give MJ the benefit of the doubt in the 90s is that like... he was called "Wacko Jacko" and was a topic of paparazzi and tabloid conspiracy stuff and people said all kinds of insane poo poo about him at the time. Then you toss in the race stuff. The sexual and gender ambiguity of Jackson. The sympathy for his upbringing and the abuse he took as a kid. It was just a really complicated picture at the time. Now none of that is me saying i believe he's innocent now. The context of the time was just different and more sympathetic to Jackson as a guy who was routinely being targeted for all manners of outrageous claims. Its definitely not a Cosby or an R'Kelly situation in that sense.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:15
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He's a prime case where nuance comes into play, where you don't judge it as yes or no, but as probably or probably not. People just like dichotomies.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:19
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https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/allred-another-tape-appears-show-r-kelly-175654637.htmlquote:NEW YORK (AP) — A man who said he was cleaning out an old videotape collection found what he thought was a recording of R&B singer R. Kelly in concert, but instead turned out to show a man who appeared to be Kelly sexually abusing girls, he and his attorney said Sunday.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:31
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Chris James 2 posted:https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/allred-another-tape-appears-show-r-kelly-175654637.html did R Kelly just load a t-shirt cannon with molestation videos and fire it into the sky
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Mar 11, 2019 02:40
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I both am confused as to how the gently caress an R. Kelly molestation video ended up in some random dude's VHS collection and also in no way questioning that its true.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:50
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And again back to the "not 100% certain" bullshit. How long can R Kelly keep getting away with raping underage girls? "Well I'm 99.8% certain it's him because nobody else on Earth looks like R Kelly or has his bone structure and physical build plus distinct haircut, but it's a little grainy because it's on VHS soooo... I 'UNNO."
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Mar 11, 2019 02:50
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I think the general agreement is that R. Kelly got away with it for so long largely because his victims are all black so it never made big enough waves until now even though it was common, accepted knowledge. Like no one disbelieves the Aaliyah or piss tape stuff.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:57
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King Vidiot posted:And again back to the "not 100% certain" bullshit. How long can R Kelly keep getting away with raping underage girls? I think a certain amount of the wording is just people protecting their asses legally. That way if he somehow gets away again, he doesn't sue them back to the stone age.
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Mar 11, 2019 03:38
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AngusPodgorny posted:Now there’s a documentary telling them to believe he did it. Which sounds pithy and condescending, but the documentary was created to persuade people of a position, by someone whose profession is persuading people, so it's no surprise it has persuaded people. Very well put. If I dj an event I won’t play him at this point, but I’ll happily listen to thriller and smooth criminal on my own.
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Mar 11, 2019 03:39
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King Vidiot posted:And again back to the "not 100% certain" bullshit. How long can R Kelly keep getting away with raping underage girls? They can do a lot of crazy poo poo with special effects nowadays.
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Mar 11, 2019 03:48
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I'm maybe getting a little Dale Gribble here, but does anyone else think Aaliyah's death needs to be looked into a little harder? Given that R. Kelly is apparently an actual loving supervillain, I would entirely buy that he was responsible for the bogus pilot and the plane being overloaded, plus there's several plausible motives
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Mar 11, 2019 04:03
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It would seem a little odd that even if he was capable of concocting a conspiracy to murder one of his victims to keep them silent that he'd do it with the single most high profile one whose relationship with him is a matter of public and legal record. Especially since as far as I remember she always insisted on defending him and refusing to speak of their relationship. And he managed to silence women for decades after without killing them.
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Mar 11, 2019 04:22
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yea he's proven he's perfectly skilled at keeping his victims quiet as is without needing to do a murder of a major public figure who's super publicly tied to him. Kelly's a psycho who seems to have just been rapin and pissin his way through the last couple decades, but I think murder is a big jump there.
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Mar 11, 2019 04:51
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STAC Goat posted:I think the general agreement is that R. Kelly got away with it for so long largely because his victims are all black so it never made big enough waves until now even though it was common, accepted knowledge. Like no one disbelieves the Aaliyah or piss tape stuff. Dave-Chappelle-How-Old-Is-16-Really?.jpg
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Mar 11, 2019 05:21
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Serious question how many people saying it's just the same old stuff have actually watched the documentary? E: Leaving Neverland that is
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Mar 11, 2019 07:05
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The thing that people seem to be missing about the significance of Leaving Neverland is that one of the two accusers, Wade Robson, was a hardcore defender of MJ right up until his death. He and MacAulay Culkin were the two main witnesses who testified on the stand on his behalf in the 2005 trial and apparently played a huge part in getting him acquitted. He came out in 2013 with the molestation claims and sued MJ's estate, but was shot down because of a statute of limitations, so he doesn't stand to gain monetarily from this either, to my knowledge. Robson kind of seems like Michael Cohen to me. Yes, we know he lied in the past, and there are details of his life story that bring his credibility into question. But the very fact that he, previously one of MJ's most ardent supporters, is no longer defending him is important in and of itself, and his accusations were also corroborated, for instance, by MJ's maid's claim of seeing the two of them showering naked together once. The parents of both men also remained pro-MJ up until their sons came out in recent years, and in Robson's case, his mother still seemed in denial about what her son was saying, so the angle that their parents are trying to get something out of this also doesn't make sense. Safechuck is another matter, since he, to me knowledge, doesn't have any of the baggage that Robson does, didn't testify on the stand in the trial, etc., and basically seems to have been living a quiet life since his teen years. Given the well-documented rancor that rabid supporters still spew at MJ's accusers, I have a hard time believing that he and Robson could be receiving compensation that would make levelling false accusations like this worthwhile.
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Mar 11, 2019 08:14
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Note: the shock jock in question, Bubba The Love Sponge, got the poo poo absolutely knocked out of him by a female pro-wrestler who had been organising relief efforts in Haiti after that earthquake back in 2010 or thereabouts, when he repeatedly tweeted "gently caress Hati" (sic). Apparently it was an absolute clobbering. He lost his job when he called her a "black bitch" on his show. Oh, and he secretly filmed Hulk Hogan loving his wife and leaked it.
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Mar 11, 2019 08:16
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MeinPanzer posted:The thing that people seem to be missing about the significance of Leaving Neverland is that one of the two accusers, Wade Robson, was a hardcore defender of MJ right up until his death. He and MacAulay Culkin were the two main witnesses who testified on the stand on his behalf in the 2005 trial and apparently played a huge part in getting him acquitted. He came out in 2013 with the molestation claims and sued MJ's estate, but was shot down because of a statute of limitations, so he doesn't stand to gain monetarily from this either, to my knowledge. honestly, as someone who hasn't watched the documentary yet and has in this very thread questioned past accusations against MJ, the thing that was most notable to me was Corey Feldman coming out and saying he believes the two men from the doc. He's always cited as someone you could point to as evidence that Jackson wasn't molesting these kids since Feldman would and still does say that Jackson never molested him, but his interview on CNN was notable because he's always been a defender and now he's sort of come to the realization that his friend really might have been a monster, and that we should support the victims. I still have my concerns about the accusations from back in the day that were the center of legal cases because I think those were more driven by the parents than the kids themselves and especially the second one didn't exactly hold up in court, but I have no reason to disbelieve the current ones.
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Mar 11, 2019 09:09
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It seemed from the documentary that there was a distinct pattern of MJ picking up a new "favourite" every year or so with whom he would spend a lot of time before rapidly phasing him out into the background. These were evidently boys to whom he was attracted and whose parents he could convince to spend alone time with him from early on in their relationship. Other boys, especially child stars, don't seem to have fallen into this category, with the one main exception being Culkin, so it wouldn't surprise me if MJ didn't go after Feldman and others like him because they were too much of a liability. Culkin does remain a mystery, though with how his life has gone I wouldn't be surprised if he was molested, too, and simply repressed his feelings like these men.
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Mar 11, 2019 10:14
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MeinPanzer posted:The thing that people seem to be missing about the significance of Leaving Neverland is that one of the two accusers, Wade Robson, was a hardcore defender of MJ right up until his death. He and MacAulay Culkin were the two main witnesses who testified on the stand on his behalf in the 2005 trial and apparently played a huge part in getting him acquitted. He came out in 2013 with the molestation claims and sued MJ's estate, but was shot down because of a statute of limitations, so he doesn't stand to gain monetarily from this either, to my knowledge. For me this is part of why this documentary is so important. It's a well made, stark account of child abuse by two men who were abused by their idol and failed by their families. Obivously could also point out there's people that might just now be recognizing abuse in their own past as a consequence of the testimony of these two men because of this expansion on the subject. People persist in making the mistake of thinking this is merely a documentary about Michael Jackson, instead of one about two victims of child abuse.
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Mar 11, 2019 13:41
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Vagabundo posted:Note: the shock jock in question, Bubba The Love Sponge, got the poo poo absolutely knocked out of him by a female pro-wrestler who had been organising relief efforts in Haiti after that earthquake back in 2010 or thereabouts, when he repeatedly tweeted "gently caress Hati" (sic). Apparently it was an absolute clobbering. He lost his job when he called her a "black bitch" on his show. Oh, and he secretly filmed Hulk Hogan loving his wife and leaked it. Yeah, back when 96.5 FM in Orlando was a rock station he had the morning slot from like 6-10 AM every weekday. It was annoying as poo poo because I liked to use that station to fall asleep in high school and then I'd wake up and suddenly "HEY IT'S BUBBA THE LOVE SPONGE SHOUTING IN YOUR EAR ABOUT HOW MUCH THE GAYS SUCK" and all the usual fake shock jock "guests" who are clearly just actors. He's a Midwest redneck who grew up thinking that being loud and saying offensive poo poo makes you funny and spent decades never getting any kind of comeuppance for being an rear end in a top hat. He even bribed people to change his Nielsen ratings to seem more popular. LionArcher posted:Very well put. If I dj an event I won’t play him at this point, but I’ll happily listen to thriller and smooth criminal on my own. I also look at it from the perspective that even if MJ was 100% guilty of every heinous thing he did, he's dead. He can't benefit whatsoever from royalties if you listen to his stuff. It's a different situation from William Control, whose story I've posted pretty much in full in this thread. He's still actively making music and selling merchandise, so listening to his stuff on Spotify or buying his albums is directly giving money to a serial rapist who wants women to commit suicide for him.
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Mar 11, 2019 15:09
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