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Digital Osmosis
Nov 10, 2002

Smile, Citizen! Happiness is Mandatory.

Cable posted:

Just came here to say that I'm reading "The Master and Margarita" and it's basically a Ravnos clan novel set in Soviet Russia.

I've had people I respect tell me to read that book. It's even the favorite novel of a brother-in-law of mine who is a working professional writer. How sad is it that this post makes me want to pick it up more than his recommendation?

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Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Kurieg posted:

I abandoned the BPG F&F, and F&F in general, for similar reasons.

You did COG Revised. You did plenty.

quote:

Sweeteheart.

No lie, I missed that until just now. Are random vowels magick?

Warthur
May 2, 2004



Soonmot posted:

I knew to avoid Changing Breeds, so it sounds like I'll cobble something together after looking at those other options.

Meanwhile on the oWoD side of the tracks, I threw the Werewolf20 version of Changing Breeds across the room because it saw fit to have an entire sidebar on whether werehyaena women have enormous clitorises.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Warthur posted:

Meanwhile on the oWoD side of the tracks, I threw the Werewolf20 version of Changing Breeds across the room because it saw fit to have an entire sidebar on whether werehyaena women have enormous clitorises.

Well don't leave us in suspense!

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011


Slept on it, my thoughts on the Horror Recognition Guide as a newcomer to Chronicles of Darkness. Naturally, spoilers to follow in case anyone else is new to the thing or didn't read it:

drat

These were some of the best short stories I've read considering the setting. What I really liked was that they all had a deep sense of knowing what they are: vignettes based a RPG setting, and didn't go overboard. Very entertaining and engaging.

Since I haven't read anything of nWoD, parachuting into the setting also added to the experience, but I can't help but feel that the book itself could provide some additional references to aid the newcomer reader. Like, a glossary of terms and acronyms would be extremely helpful: I really didn't comprehend a lot of the commentary by Task Force Valkyrie because of that, and while it isn't a big deal in terms of enjoying the read, it can be a hindrance to a potential player who wants to use that information to game, and not just make it a read for those who are already fans or in-the-know of the setting.

I really, really, really liked that the supernaturals have a low awareness of each other. One thing that always felt funny to me in Classic was this general, encyclopedic understanding that all major players had about each other, exacerbated further by things like the Jyhad and such. Very peak 90s, but kills that sense of unknown/dread when, for instance, a coterie has to deal with a mage. I loved that in Gnosopharm, for instance, the mages wanted to bargain with another, unknown force that they thought were mages too, but there is no indication whatsoever about that, and they are very arrogant about it.

nWoD certainly favors a different approach. However, one thing that I didn't like and left me rather confused about "why, though?" was to have your infernal, pop culture demons and the Unchained. There are no DtD stories in the Guide, but I had a little knowledge of DtD beforehand because it was one of the games that I thought were very interesting and new when it was released, but didn't go any further to learn it deeper. Having like "conventional" devils with their own Hell and the Fallen looking for their own Hell seems, I dunno, too much busywork? Conflicting information? Sure, the setting has plenty of space, but the former just look boring in comparison with the latter and their peculiarities of the conflict with the God-Machine.

Another thing that I really liked: leaving mortal stuff for the mortals to shine. Task Force Valkyrie seems much more likable than the usual Classic "but actually that is a Technocratic franchise operation", and IMHO that makes Hunters such as them much better, giving a real "Go Team Humanity!" vibe with all their imperfections and flaws that make victories so much better.

(BTW, what does it mean if a field agent of Valkyrie scores at the very top of their willpower analysis and can partially comprehend "True Enochian" that leaves them so worried? Does it mean that the agent is a potential Mage or something else?)

Likewise, nWoD's take on the Fae is way better and the implications of being a Changeling are as oppressive as being a Wraith back on Classic, which is holy poo poo amazing. Not knowing much about it, can't comment on anything, but seems like a very promising line to dig in.

Last, but not least, why does nWoD has a lot more UFO/alien nudges? Is there some elaboration on that? One thing that, IMHO, Classic has more of an appeal is that it has that definitive and very strong aura of "Modern Mysticism" (let's put it like that) that nWoD didn't show much to me back then and I kinda start to get it now, because it feels much more uh... Science fiction-ish? It isn't science fiction, of course, but it personally resonates a lot like that, particularly with the implication of what it seems to be other dimensions and alien stuff.

Or, poo poo, I just reminded of the quote: Clarke's "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" is what I was being reminded of while reading some of the stories, particularly Vivisection, Close Encounter and the overall commentaries from Task Force Valkyrie. I don't mind that approach at all, it's just that my usual reference for the World of Darkness was always that feel of Abrahamic all-or-nothing cosmic judgement being everywhere, and now it feels much more unknowable. I like that!

So, any other suggested readings to follow up from that? I got my hands on the DtD sourcebook, but if there is something that ties pretty well with the Horror Recognition Guide to go after it, I am all ears. Thanks again for the suggestions and info, you all :allears:

Stephenls
Feb 21, 2013
[REDACTED]
I don't think Demon: The Descent had even been pitched yet when Horror Recognition Guide came out. Someone was aware that there would probably be a game about demons at some point, but nobody had even begun to work out any details. So the question is less "Why have conventional demon-y demons in here when Descent has much more interesting demons?" and more "Why make a game about Descent demons when some of our better supplements already talk about more conventional demons?" And the answer, obviously, is "We have an interesting idea for demons in Descent and we're not going to let previous book references stop us."

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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There are at this point something like five things called demons in nWoD. The only ones that actually resemble traditional Hell stuff in actuality are the Lucifuge and Inferno ones, tho, and I prefer to think that there’s a lens there shifting things based in cultural assumptions. Largely because, as you note, the whole Abrahamic God thing is a near nonpresence in nWoD deliberately. If there is a God, he’s very subtle.

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Aliens also get a nod in the Changeling core book as a possible avenue of getting snapped up by the Fae.

I agree that some of the terms used in the HRG are a bit hard to decipher if you don't have the context. I had the same problem when I read it, and that was after reading several hundred pages of this thread and various F&F reviews to have some bits of context.

Tricky Dick Nixon
Jul 26, 2010

by Nyc_Tattoo
Part of that is because the setting is supposed to be toolbox in nature such that you can mix and match what you want in your game, and challenge some setting assumptions. The presence of like five different kinds of "demons" in the universe is a good indicator of this.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets
DtD style demons did show up a few times before the game was written - there's one in Midnight Roads, for example - but the CofD is a deliberately broad church that resists efforts to make everything about a splat.

For example, the Men in Black. Not the oWoD's version of then, the creepy, obviously-not-human disturbing things that turn hp on the doorstep of people who've seen UFOs and intimidate them.

They're in the CofD. Black-Eyed Children (another favorite urban legend) are also in CofD and established as their juvenile form.

They are not connected to any splat. No one knows what they are. It doesn't matter.


Are some alien abductions CtL Fae encounters? Are some of them Astral breeches, or Spirits?

Sure!

But some of them are, you know, Aliens. And it does not break the setting for them to be so.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

I thought the loose stone soup nature of nWoD was one of its strengths, though some context on the compacts / conspiracies really does help. For all the weird premises that CoD provides it is still, to me, driven by the blue book and lowest-level hunter compacts. Mechanically it’s not the best system, but when it comes to aligning with contemporary cosmic horror it’s hard to beat. Ten Photographs is basically a Laird Barron story.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

They at least imo took the right tack in having lines only overlap on the margins, for the most part (with Hunter just being a catch-all reverse of the dilemma common to all the other lines, which is how you deal with humanity). They learned from the X-Files that every crazy thing should have its own domain (until Chris Carter makes it a Cancer Man thing)

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

dead comedy forums posted:

"why, though?" was to have your infernal, pop culture demons and the Unchained.

One, to get that reaction, and two, because 'demons' are explicitly a thing. The Maeljin aren't just spirits of Hate and Greed for instance [Although spirits of Hate and Greed might be working for a Maeljin, or not], they are drawing from something....else. Some other place. There are beings, and always have been, whose ties to evil are a bit more than tangential. That's still true even in the 2nd edition books. There is something else to metaphysical evil. Beyond that the question becomes "Why is it a God-Machine, why does it call it's servants angels, and relatedly which came first: Human beliefs or it's servants?".

The simplest answer would be related to the fact the God-Machine isn't supernatural, exactly. It's occult science is just that, understanding of the world. People can grasp the edges of it and use it. Hell, get too close to it at work and you get a cheap and easy enlightenment into the higher order of things. You'll be monitored for the rest of your life and have a much higher chance of being dragged into some monster bash nonsense, but hey.....free powers! So it's entirely possible that the God-Machine has angels, and by extension demons, because it builds it's mythology out of the world around it. Much like it builds it's Infrastructure out of the world around it.

Or it could be the other way around, and the God-Machine is the distorted source of those myths. Or a mix, where it's partly drawing from human myths and partially inspired them. Or the human myths are drawing from the like 10 other things called "Angel" and "Demon" in the setting. Or it's all just people. Or any one of a thousand other things. You can get answers in the CoD, but meaning is a lot harder.

At the end of the day there is almost certainly some Lower Realm or other such place of sin and moral absence that pretty much anything can tie itself to, that changes the nature of the being and empowers them to feed on the negative moral expressions of the human experience. You could call them demons. Statistically there's probably the opposite too for that matter, although it'd be just as alien and possibly destructive. And there are beings called angels that turn from the service of their patron god and call themselves demons, who are effectively just quantum robot people. And there are abstractions of people's subconscious that embody their inner flaws and weaknesses. You could call them demons too.

There's a lot going on out there, try to take it all in and you'd go crazy.

Tricky Dick Nixon
Jul 26, 2010

by Nyc_Tattoo

Mulva posted:

There's a lot going on out there, try to take it all in and you'd go crazy.

or worse, become sane

Hostile V
May 31, 2013

Solving all of life's problems through enhanced casting of Occam's Razor. Reward yourself with an imaginary chalice.

It's also all, correctly, mutually contradictory or inexplicable. Either the world and the worlds layering on top of ours are spacious enough to give everything breathing room or some further things just don't add up and can't add up. It's up to you to pick and choose what's real and what fits and I like that a lot.

Also they released some small snippets to use HRG things in your games that shed some further light on what exactly these creatures are/can be but nicely they don't all necessarily solve and spoil the thing they're talking about. Emily Gillen is a Slasher to a certain degree, Oleg Chernenko is a Zeky, the Razorkids are ghouls, the folks beneath the hospital loving around with bodies are insane Aegis Kai Doru Hunters gone off the deep end when they put relics in themselves, the tentacle horrorbeast was part of some Lucifuge experiments to track the demon-blooded using a gribbly pet. Other things don't get explanations at all, specifically 10 Photographs and Snake and Bird, and just become jumping-off points for you to run with this for your own campaign. And there's still enough wiggle in the "explained" stuff that you can go off in your own direction with them anyway, they're just good clues for how to point your adventures in a certain direction.

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



Tricky Dick Nixon posted:

or worse, Awaken

It's almost like there's some kind of... platonic shapes, underlying reality, which are expressed in a variety of ways. Maybe if you tried to manipulate those underlying signs directly, you could warp the nature of reality. Possibly even create new concepts and structures to establish some kind of power over the world. Maybe 'demons' reflect some inherent law of the world, and with the right knowledge, you could predict and command them.

Of course, most likely you get yourself eaten. But... who could resist pushing forward towards that glory on the horizon?

e: Personally I imagine the underlying rule of the Chronicles is the multiplication of entities. Nothing is singular; the world throws off a dozen weird shadows with their own independent realities feeding on each other. Everything is alive, everything multiplies across different frameworks. This means you can also never be sure that this particular mothman is the same as the other mothmen you've seen. Mages, of course, have very limited awareness of the original platonic object from which the shadows are cast, and some limited understanding of the properties of light and shadows... but all that means is they can say 'there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our philosophy.' They know something about ontology, but much less about the immense web of entities that proceed from that point.

Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Mar 11, 2019

Zereth
Jul 9, 2003



Mulva posted:

So it's entirely possible that the God-Machine has angels, and by extension demons, because it builds it's mythology out of the world around it. Much like it builds it's Infrastructure out of the world around it.

Or it could be the other way around, and the God-Machine is the distorted source of those myths.
God-Machine has done time manipulation bullshit

It's possible both of these are correct

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
The God-Machine is also very likely the victim of that time manipulation bullshit, in that Great Mountain is one the concept/god refugees that got kicked out of heaven when the Exarchs did their thing, causing it to steadily degrade from a symbol into a purely physical thing.

e: It's just that it managed to thrive, unlike the other Pangaeans who turned into physical horrors instead of spirits and, consequently, mostly got merked by mortals.

Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 11, 2019

Warthur
May 2, 2004



joylessdivision posted:

Well don't leave us in suspense!
They don't actually give an answer, it's just this sidebar dedicated to tastelessly raising the subject and then dodging out of saying anything conclusive about it.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
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2014-2018

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The God-Machine is also very likely the victim of that time manipulation bullshit, in that Great Mountain is one the concept/god refugees that got kicked out of heaven when the Exarchs did their thing, causing it to steadily degrade from a symbol into a purely physical thing.

e: It's just that it managed to thrive, unlike the other Pangaeans who turned into physical horrors instead of spirits and, consequently, mostly got merked by mortals.

Cromulent theory, very definitely and deliberately not canonically confirmed.

e: there's a lot of dot-connecting you can do that will hold together and make sense, in general, but nWoD will pretty much never make it explicit or confirm it.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Joe Slowboat posted:

Mages, of course, have very limited awareness of the original platonic object from which the shadows are cast

Unless it's from the Lower Depths, in which case their knowledge would be completely useless by definition. And of course pretty much every Mage source posits that 'true' demons would be from the Lower Depths. The Truth of the Lower Depths is denial of the Truth that Mages know. It's stated in the 2nd Edition book that no spell can create a Scar into the Lower Depths, and that no Mage has visited one and returned. You can summon beings from them, study their works, but you can't go there. It's sort of like the Supernal in that sense, only Mages don't have the power to shield their self-form there. Their realms are the antithesis of reality, the total lack of some aspect of what makes our world. And the Supernal has no great power there.

Demons, true beings of metaphysical evil, are a bit beyond the pale of the Mage cosmos. They are, even for the Atlanteans, the border beyond which is "Here be dragons [And not the good kind]".

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Mulva posted:

Unless it's from the Lower Depths, in which case their knowledge would be completely useless by definition. And of course pretty much every Mage source posits that 'true' demons would be from the Lower Depths. The Truth of the Lower Depths is denial of the Truth that Mages know. It's stated in the 2nd Edition book that no spell can create a Scar into the Lower Depths, and that no Mage has visited one and returned. You can summon beings from them, study their works, but you can't go there. It's sort of like the Supernal in that sense, only Mages don't have the power to shield their self-form there. Their realms are the antithesis of reality, the total lack of some aspect of what makes our world. And the Supernal has no great power there.

I'm pretty sure this is, like, 100% wrong. I think you're confusing the Lower Depths with the Abyss?

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



The Lower Depths (assuming the account of them given in the Mage line is accurate) are incomplete shadows of the Supernal, missing something constitutive of phenomenal reality. They're the traditional Gnostic Outer Dark. Nothing from the phenomenal world can really survive there because they don't have the necessary underlying reality to sustain us, but that doesn't mean they have some kind of opposite and equal antireality to the Supernal- that's the Abyss' job.
The Lower Depths are incomplete, not antithetical (hence why they hate the Abyss, and feed on the reality found in our world.) of course, knowing all of the above is totally and utterly useless to predicting or understanding any Lower Depth specifically except on a useless abstract level.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
The Lower Depths feed on reality, the Abyss wants to destroy it.

Put another way, you will never form a profitable long-term arrangement with an Abyssal entity. They will scoop your soul out with a spoon and crawl inside, and joy ride you till the wheels fall off. On the other hand, there's at least one left-handed legacy that forms a pact with a creature from a Lower Depth, so that the Mage can create a world there by stealing things from reality, and while this is probably dangerous and just not cricket, it's not quite as insanely suicidal as trying to do the same with an Acamoth.

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011
It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

Rand Brittain posted:

I'm pretty sure this is, like, 100% wrong. I think you're confusing the Lower Depths with the Abyss?

Nope, it's all over the place. Summoners, the 2nd Edition core, Left Hand Path. The Abyss is anti-reality, the Lower Depths are....absence. You could have a realm without Life, or Death, or Form, or Function. And if you go in one you tend to....well, die. You are alive, if you are in a realm without Life you can't be. So you aren't. The end, no moral [Maybe invent some sort of anti-Death shielding I guess, people that weren't that guy?]. If you are in a realm without Form you die because you sort of need that to....be. And so forth. A Scar is an Iris into a Lower Depth [What Werewolves would call a Wound, although potentially only certain types of Scars would be Wounds. Who knows?]. And spells can't create one. You can summon a Lower Depth creature, but it's generally a process of removing some aspect of reality to create a space they could live in. You can't call them like you would a Spirit or a Ghost or some such.

They are the Lie of the Lie, the shadow cast by the shadow cast by the Supernal.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Mulva posted:

They are the Lie of the Lie, the shadow cast by the shadow cast by the Supernal.

I wonder if this categorical distinction is appropriate, or if it's more that the phenomenal world after the Abyss came into existence is just the shallowest of the Lower Depths.

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



A good question! I think the question then becomes, what Arcanum is present in the Supernal that is not present in the Phenomenal World? Otherwise there is a qualitative difference in the phenomenal, a complete emanation, from the incomplete or unbalanced emanations of the Lower Depths.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Joe Slowboat posted:

A good question! I think the question then becomes, what Arcanum is present in the Supernal that is not present in the Phenomenal World? Otherwise there is a qualitative difference in the phenomenal, a complete emanation, from the incomplete or unbalanced emanations of the Lower Depths.

Where does the idea that they're missing an Arcanum, specifically, come from? It sounds Imperial Mysteries-ish but I'm not positive.

Jonas Albrecht
Jun 7, 2012


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The God-Machine is also very likely the victim of that time manipulation bullshit, in that Great Mountain is one the concept/god refugees that got kicked out of heaven when the Exarchs did their thing, causing it to steadily degrade from a symbol into a purely physical thing.

e: It's just that it managed to thrive, unlike the other Pangaeans who turned into physical horrors instead of spirits and, consequently, mostly got merked by mortals.

What's this from it sounds awesome.

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Where does the idea that they're missing an Arcanum, specifically, come from? It sounds Imperial Mysteries-ish but I'm not positive.

I think Summoners, actually?

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Where does the idea that they're missing an Arcanum, specifically, come from? It sounds Imperial Mysteries-ish but I'm not positive.

Fanon.

(The four Canon Lower Depths - Anwwn, Duat, Inferno, and the Strix’s homeworld - are all lacking *something*, but in none of them is it as simple as one single Arcanum)

Joe Slowboat
Nov 9, 2016

Higgledy-Piggledy Whale Statements



Dave Brookshaw posted:

Fanon.

(The four Canon Lower Depths - Anwwn, Duat, Inferno, and the Strix’s homeworld - are all lacking *something*, but in none of them is it as simple as one single Arcanum)

Good to know - I thought Summoners specifically has a number of canon Lower Depths entities, including cargo cult plane things, which are significantly simpler in their lack? I remember the plane things as lacking Life, specifically, and being described as such.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The God-Machine is also very likely the victim of that time manipulation bullshit, in that Great Mountain is one the concept/god refugees that got kicked out of heaven when the Exarchs did their thing, causing it to steadily degrade from a symbol into a purely physical thing.

e: It's just that it managed to thrive, unlike the other Pangaeans who turned into physical horrors instead of spirits and, consequently, mostly got merked by mortals.

Great Mountain was not meant to be the God-Machine, we were initially surprised some fans decided it looked like it was, and one of my fears is that some newbie writer will come along in five years and write as though it was always meant to be the God-Machine.

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!

*throws dart into center of dart board upon which a paper printed with the words THE AUTHOR is affixed*

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets

Joe Slowboat posted:

Good to know - I thought Summoners specifically has a number of canon Lower Depths entities, including cargo cult plane things, which are significantly simpler in their lack? I remember the plane things as lacking Life, specifically, and being described as such.

There’s a couple of entities; you’re thinking of the Decay, I believe, in which case it’s not quite as simple as “it lacks the Life Arcanum”. But those are the known realms I have declared mages declare to be Depths.

(There’s the Tutor, too, the thing Paternoster keep chained up in a Chantry somewhere that makes Hollow Ones. It’s from an unknown depth and eats... The human sense of self? personality?)

joylessdivision
Jun 15, 2013



Jonas Albrecht posted:

What's this from it sounds awesome.

At a guess maybe the Dark Eras stuff.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets

joylessdivision posted:

At a guess maybe the Dark Eras stuff.

Dark Eras 1: Pangaens (the inhabitants of the Border Marches) who didn’t get crushed when their world turned into the Gauntlet got pushed into the physical or Shadow world and turned into flesh or spirit. The fleshly ones being the ancestors of the things out of Werewolf’s early 1e books like Predators; sometimes you just come across a mile-long worm-thing sleeping under the mountains while you’re mining for Platinum in the nWoD.

But mostly, their descendants are things like Beshilu and Azlu.

nofather
Aug 15, 2014

Dave Brookshaw posted:

But mostly, their descendants are things like Beshilu and Azlu.

What's your opinion on the hosts? Like them or hate them, don't care or think they need more?

You've brought them up on a few different occasions and it seems like one may have been in your mage AP (though it could have been abyssal spiders, too), so I always thought of you as having a favorable opinion of them.

nofather fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Mar 11, 2019

Spector29
Nov 28, 2016

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The Lower Depths feed on reality, the Abyss wants to destroy it.

Put another way, you will never form a profitable long-term arrangement with an Abyssal entity. They will scoop your soul out with a spoon and crawl inside, and joy ride you till the wheels fall off. On the other hand, there's at least one left-handed legacy that forms a pact with a creature from a Lower Depth, so that the Mage can create a world there by stealing things from reality, and while this is probably dangerous and just not cricket, it's not quite as insanely suicidal as trying to do the same with an Acamoth.

*cough*

So, uh...asking for a friend, but what legacy? Where could I find it?

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nofather
Aug 15, 2014

Spector29 posted:

So, uh...asking for a friend, but what legacy? Where could I find it?

They're the Cwn Annwn, from Left-Hand Path, p38.

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