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AnnoyBot posted:Scenarios: BC, Canada. Unionized. Pay is technically hourly, but I have a preset number of hours, 36.25, per week (the collective agreement defines our pay as hourly because it's easier to adjust for OT pay, etc). Work days are 7.25 hours including 2 15 min paid breaks and 1 45 min unpaid lunch break. 1) I don't have this as we're all local, but if I did, as per our collective agreement it would be double time pay at minimum 2 hours. Every 1 hour I get a 15 minute paid break at this level of OT. 2) Same as above. 3) On-call for me is paid at $80/day for standby, callouts/being "woken up" are overtime as per my #1 above. I must have 12 hours between shift end and shift start too, so if time overlap I get free paid time off until the next work day starts. In practice this means if there is a late night issue, I get the OT pay for the issue, and the following day off work but still paid for it. 4) Those windows would all be double time as per my #1 point, along with those work day restrictions. 5) Same as above.
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Mar 15, 2019 06:53
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CLAM DOWN posted:Awesome info poo poo, I totally forgot about unions. That's so far off the map here it's not even in my mind. Thanks.
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Mar 15, 2019 07:13
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Hi I'm in the US, salaried, and none of that poo poo would fly with me, other than the occasional off-hours deployment. Get a new job
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Mar 15, 2019 12:35
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AnnoyBot posted:As a US-ian, I'm curious about how common scenarios are paid (or not paid) for in other exotic lands. If you're outside the US, give the country and state if appropriate. Is the idea that employers should only be on the hook for 40 hours a week while employees are at their mercy uniquely American? No, this is not for a school project; I'm just curious how IT works when outside the wild west labor-lawless 'Murica zone. I work with a local bank purchased by a Colombian banking corporation. We are ruled by Panamanian labor law. Our contract is for 48 weekly hours + on call duty every 15 days. Which pays $300 + overtime hours. Salaried is a thing here but they only exempt employees should be director-level, the figure is called Trusted Employee and represents the interests of the company towards other employees. Most workers are ignorant and do not know ANY of the labor regulations and companies take advantage of this. Companies rarely get audited to see if they are compliant. In regard to labor laws the bank is currently violating the following regulations: a) There is a 9 weekly hour limit for OT. Anything above this has to pay a penalty and a fine. I once worked 40 hours of OT in a week in June, last year. b) After the last work activity in the day, the worker has the right to 12 hours of uninterrupted sleep. My boss currently lowered this to 6 hours. We are currently fighting this passively. c) Employees that work on a Sunday have to be paid OT + get a another day off on the next week as compensation. This currently does not happen and my boss is keeping mum. d) Training is being scheduled either after hours (which they do not pay) or on Saturdays. If I'm fired, I putting together a file and taking it to the Ministry of Labor as I can prove this has taken place for at least 5+ years. 1) Allowed but it falls to the persons currently in the on call rotation. It is paid. This also does not happen because the Colombian HQ is in the same timezone. 2) Allowed but it falls to the persons currently in the on call rotation. It is paid. This also does not happen because the Colombian HQ is in the same timezone. 3) Allowed but it falls to the persons currently in the on call rotation. It is paid. You get VPN access and can take it on your bed if necessary. 4) Allowed but it falls to the persons currently in the on call rotation. It is paid. 5) Allowed but it falls to the persons currently in the on call rotation. It is paid.
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Mar 15, 2019 12:42
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Kashuno posted:Hi I'm in the US, salaried, and none of that poo poo would fly with me, other than the occasional off-hours deployment. Same. If no OT pay, then I want 1.5:1 or 2:1 comp time with a min of 4 hours (which is basically what I have now). The 2 weeks of 24/7 on call can gently caress right off.
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Mar 15, 2019 12:57
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AnnoyBot posted:Scenarios: AB, Canada. Salaried. 37.5 hours per week. Company only exists within Canada's borders so max time difference is 3.5hrs. 1. I would be allowed to decline this meeting and suggest another time. If I took it it would be paid as overtime (or time in lieu if I so choose). 2. As above, this would be paid OT. 3. gently caress everything about this. I'm not sure how this would work, but there would definitely be days off or half days as a result. 4. The windows only exist on the weekends for us. Work done in this time is paid OT. 5. Same as above.
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Mar 15, 2019 15:21
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I am in America, but if I got woken up for a three-hour call in the middle of the night, I would come in quite late the next afternoon, and not a word would be said. Any extended after-hours maintenance I do (and I definitely do some, probably 2-3 times a month), I get comp time for. If I had an 11pm 1:1, I would simply not show up for the 7am daily meeting (and really, DAILY? Why the gently caress is that necesssary?). That's less than 8 hours between times you have to be at work. I would call that a "split shift." It's bullshit. Ham Equity fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Mar 15, 2019 |
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Mar 15, 2019 16:31
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Yeah comp time at an absolute minimum. Getting OT on salary is basically impossible, but not getting *anything* is ridiculous
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Mar 15, 2019 16:36
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AnnoyBot, for the maintenance windows, are you scheduled to work that time, or is that the time you have allotted for bringing down production systems, which you only have to do occasionally?
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Mar 15, 2019 16:39
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Looking to find some help for a friend here - anyone know a good IT recruiter in the Austin, TX area? Said friend started her current role as a document control person, many years ago, and now she's pretty much runs doc control for her org. She really enjoys working with her internal customers to try to make document control and its processes work for them. Unfortunately, doc control isn't part of IT there, and yet IT are the admins for the doc control system, whereas my friend is treated as a power user. IT doesn't have anyone who knows the system and has no interest in changing that, so while the needs of the business change periodically, the system is stuck, and it's making my friend miserable. She wants to find a new job either doing doc control for a company that will let her own the system and make constructive changes, or transition to more of a business systems analyst role, helping fit IT processes to business needs. My gut tells me that she's one of those well-intentioned people who tend to underplay their hand in interviews and talk themselves out of a job. Working with a recruiter who can help sell her to a new employer seems like the best option. I'm just glad she finally admitted that her job sucks and she needs a new one, after years of being the non-goon in a well.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:40
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quote:comp time Is this "comp time" thing you guys are referring to like a paid time off bank? You put hours into it at straight time or double?
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Mar 15, 2019 16:45
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CLAM DOWN posted:Is this "comp time" thing you guys are referring to like a paid time off bank? You put hours into it at straight time or double? Yeah, and it's straight time because I'm salaried, exempt. I think IT may be the only department in my org that even gets comp time for their exempt employees. Because this is America, and that's what freedom looks like.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:49
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Thanatosian posted:If I had an 11pm 1:1, I would simply not show up for the 7am daily meeting (and really, DAILY? Why the gently caress is that necesssary?). That's less than 8 hours between times you have to be at work. I would call that a "split shift." It's bullshit. When I was a consultant working for a very large Indian consulting company, I worked 8-5 for my gig and then had a three hour weekly call at 8pm to sync with my team in India and the other PM. It sucked and we still had to be onsite the next day. We all called it the Wednesday Thrashing because it was three hours of all of us being called out one at a time and having all of our mistakes rehashed in front of the rest of the team. So we could “learn”. Edit: it’s amazing that I’ve been working for my favorite company ever for the last five years and I only worked at that shithole for thirteen months but thinking about it still makes my blood boil. Agrikk fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Mar 15, 2019 |
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Mar 15, 2019 16:59
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Thanatosian posted:Yeah, and it's straight time because I'm salaried, exempt. I think IT may be the only department in my org that even gets comp time for their exempt employees. I'm single and have a huge walk-in closet if you want to move 
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Mar 15, 2019 17:02
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Thanatosian posted:Yeah, and it's straight time because I'm salaried, exempt. I think IT may be the only department in my org that even gets comp time for their exempt employees. I also get straight time but my last job was in a red state, so I didn't even get that. It feels amazing to get 1-for-1 comp time after 5 years of eating any overtime hours.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:02
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Agrikk posted:We all called it the Wednesday Thrashing because it thee hours of all of us being called out one at a time and having all of our mistakes rehashed in front of the rest of the team. So we could “learn”. Why do people think this accomplishes anything? This management style is the worst and in my experience never has the intended "learning experience" result.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:29
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Salaried* I get bonuses at the end of each quarter based on billed hours, I work for an MSP so internal work generally will not fall on me so it's all billable time 1/2) Everyone is local but it would be a gently caress you eat the time scenario 3) The hours would get thrown into my bonus, but would not affect my weekly paycheck. 4) Comp time or see #3 5) Comp time or see #3
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Mar 15, 2019 17:32
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AnnoyBot posted:As a US-ian, I'm curious about how common scenarios are paid (or not paid) for in other exotic lands. : In CA you need to make -100k to be an exempt computer worker(and a bunch of job types can never be exempt). If you are not salary exempt all of those scenarios would be paid, and anything more than 8 in a day or 40 in a week is overtime. Many of these jobs do pay overtime or comp time for exempt employees.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:37
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AnnoyBot posted:For each scenario, I'm interested in the following: US, Salary. My manager is in the office next to mine, but we have users in some odd timezones. Any time I have to do anything for them I get banked comp time, if it's something in the middle of the night I usually will use the comp time the next day. My manager is usually very generous with the comp time as well, where a couple hours of work outside of normal business hours gets me a full day off. This covers basically all of the scenarios you have laid out.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:39
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CLAM DOWN posted:I'm single and have a huge walk-in closet if you want to move What's the square footage on your closet? I'm in Seattle, it's possible it's bigger than my room. But probably rents for more.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:39
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CLAM DOWN posted:I'm single and have a huge walk-in closet if you want to move What you attached a box for a microwave to your refrigerator carton?
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Mar 15, 2019 17:42
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Sarern posted:I also get straight time but my last job was in a red state, so I didn't even get that. It feels amazing to get 1-for-1 comp time after 5 years of eating any overtime hours. Yeah, and it is such complete loving bullshit that I feel "lucky" that I get straight comp time for hours over forty in a week. I don't even make very much; I grossed a little under $55,000 last year. "Lucky."
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Mar 15, 2019 17:42
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Thanatosian posted:Yeah, and it is such complete loving bullshit that I feel "lucky" that I get straight comp time for hours over forty in a week. Did you want to move to Portland? We might have openings in your wheelhouse.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:47
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Stop working for lovely bosses (I know that is not always possible). We have no policy about giving people time back but I’ve never worked for someone that was such a huge rear end in a top hat that they wanted people coming in at normal hours, or at all, after doing midnight maintenance.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:51
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skipdogg posted:Nah. Talking about the tons and tons of contract gigs for DoD and NSA, not to mention all the other big businesses hiring "cyber security" people. I just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one feeling this way and what you said really resonated with me. I've been in a similar funk for a while now. Some of it is for sure the company I am working for, but I think most of it is hitting a sort of quarter-life crisis where I'm not sure what I want to do next. I've been really fortunate in my life and my career. I basically got to where I am now, which is where I always wanted to be, did what I feel like was a very successful job, and it's almost like it's a solved puzzle at this point. I'm bored of my skillset even though I've always been able to touch anything that could be of use in the corporate IT world. I'd really love to get into a devops type role, as I think it meshes really well with my engineering personality, but I just never had the opportunity to touch that stuff in my travels. As I mentioned a week or so ago, I'm leaving my current place at the end of this month and even though I am having plenty of well-paying similar opportunities coming my way, they all just seem so boring. It's actually making me super depressed. I've always been passionate about my work and as unhealthy as I know it is, my work has really defined who I am. Serious first world problems here, but yeah, I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone in feeling that way.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:55
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stuxracer posted:Stop working for lovely bosses (I know that is not always possible). When I was younger and more desperate I had a cool as gently caress job and boss who gave me tons of poo poo for coming in late after working about 40 hrs straight through the entire weekend on a problem so that things could be back up on Monday. Because they couldn't print super important monday morning stuff due to "my network problem" of a jammed printer that no one could be bothered to read the all caps PAPER JAM message or clear What I'm saying is  gently caress yeah America owns (you)
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Mar 15, 2019 17:57
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Agrikk posted:We all called it the Wednesday Thrashing because it thee hours of all of us being called out one at a time and having all of our mistakes rehashed in front of the rest of the team. So we could “learn”. Much like the "PYF massive technical fuckup you made" we did earlier this week, I appreciate hearing all the stories of awful bosses ITT. It helps with my massive imposter syndrome as a new manager myself. Cause I may have no idea what I'm doing, but at least I'm not doing poo poo like that. You're not R Lee Ermey, what the hell do you think you're accomplishing by dressing down your whole team publicly every week? Nothing, besides driving them to go work elsewhere.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:58
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Thanatosian posted:(and really, DAILY? Why the gently caress is that necesssary?). My department has what is called the "Daily Operational Readiness" call (or DOR) and it's actually kinda nice to keep everything organized, normally 15-30 minutes to go over current incidents and problems and assign any that need to be assigned (my department is the highest level of support from an operations perspective so daily there are very few incidents that even get escalated that high as they've gone through both levels of help desk, and our "Enterprise Systems Technicians"). Anyway, as for The Fool's post I can't speak to being in IT outside the US, but: 1) Your manager is across an ocean, and likes to have 1:1s at 11pm your time. Like others I'd expect to get Comp time and be able to come in late if my manager actually expected me to do a 1:1 at that time. I'd also probably not work at a job where I was expected to be in a meeting at 11 pm if that was outside my normal working hours. Doing actual work on off hours (in a maintenance window or something) is one thing, a meeting call especially so far out of your working hours... gently caress that. 2) Your org has teams in 3 continents. Daily status meeting is at 7am your time, which is roughly 4pm for the other primary team. Your job is theoretically 9-5. While not as big a time difference, I'm 3 hours different from 98% of my team, and because of that work East coast hours (while living in AZ US). If you're expected to be in a daily meeting at 7 am your time then your work hours should be adjusted to accommodate that (6 am - 2 pm is actually what I work right now, and our daily meeting is at 7 am my time). Or they shouldn't expect you to make that call. 3) You are 24/7 on call for 2 weeks. You get woken up about once a night, ranging from 15min to 3 hours. You must respond in as near to real time as possible, but can be anywhere that internet is available. gently caress this! Its bad enough I have to be on call for 1 week every 3 months, and I've only had 1 call during my on call period in the year and a half I've had this job. And it took 20 minutes to resolve. 4) You work 9-5 M-F, but have 4 hour 11pm maintenance windows on 2 weekdays, and a 6 hour window on saturday starting at 7 pm. Are you expected to work those or is it a rare time where you sometimes have to make changes? I randomly maybe once every few months have to work in a maintenance window and normally it's only when something is too sensitive/difficult to trust to our after hours techs. It sounds like this org has people all over, probably several who those hours are in normal working hours... why can't the maintenance be left to those who are already working those hours? 5) You're working on a new Ansible deployment. Iterating the playbook configs and pushing new test jobs takes all day, and goes until about 9pm. Again comp time. The Fool... it sounds like this job is poo poo if this is all expected of you and they aren't making adjustments to make your life more livable or you aren't getting compensated for it.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:02
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TheFace posted:The Fool... it sounds like this job is poo poo if this is all expected of you and they aren't making adjustments to make your life more livable or you aren't getting compensated for it. Maybe I didn't convey it very well in my post, but my comp situation is very much in my favor. I've gotten 8 hours of comp time for 2 hours of work in the past. In addition, the scenarios that are laid out are very rare for me. I do after hours work maybe once a month, and that's just to make sure services come back with no issues after patching. Weird time-zone support only happens if the issue is escalated to me, which has literally only happened twice in 2018. I've had one 3am night in the 3 years I've worked here, and I was given 2 days of comp time for that. Scenario 2 doesn't actually apply to me at all since I don't have daily meetings and all of my team is in the same building.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:22
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lampey posted:In CA you need to make -100k to be an exempt computer worker(and a bunch of job types can never be exempt). If you are not salary exempt all of those scenarios would be paid, and anything more than 8 in a day or 40 in a week is overtime. Many of these jobs do pay overtime or comp time for exempt employees. Ah, California You are non-exempt if: quote:5. The exemption described above does not apply to an employee if any of the following apply: Any maintenance responsibilities whatsoever and you are non-exempt. https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/Glossary.asp?Button1=E#employee%20in%20the%20computer%20software%20field So keep a can of air handy and spray out your laptop's vents regularly !
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Mar 15, 2019 18:28
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Denmark, unionized, public sector. 37 hours a week, any hours past that accrues as flex time. Must have at least 11 hours of rest between shifts, and there are limits (don't remember details) on frequency and amount of night shifts, on-call, etc. In my position I never have on-call or irregular hours. In case it becomes necessary, it requires something like a month of warning ahead of time. Scenario 1: Doesn't happen, however: My manager would know work at night is 1.5x or 2x time and needs to be either paid out or go towards flex time. I would not show up at work until 11 hours after the end of the meeting. Scenario 2: Doesn't happen, but would arrange for different work hours as necessary. Perhaps take the meeting as WFH. Scenario 3: Union won't allow being on-call without breaks for that long. The union would tell me to not work until they have worked it out with management. Scenario 4: 1.5x or 2x time for work outside weekdays 7 am - 6 pm, and 11 hours of rest between shifts. Work on a weekend will usually mean one or two days off the following week. Scenario 5: Discuss with manager whether he's okay with me working past regular hours and getting 1.5x or 2x time.
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Mar 15, 2019 20:42
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nielsm posted:Denmark, unionized, public sector. You guys are in the EU, right? Are you single? 
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Mar 16, 2019 00:16
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Even with the benefits it's a been almost two months at this job at this job and I'm starting to break and look elsewhere. I thought it was going to be pure level 2 help desk which I know how to do and would be a nice comfort zone to work on certs. That was the plan: stay for a while and maybe move up. The problem is and what I wasn't told I'd be I'm the asset manager plus help desk. I didn't spend years on my education for this. I basically have two jobs in one not worth it. I have to do tickets and handle the asset stuff. I'm tired of my manger constantly bugging me about assets. I'm back to the job search, I figure it should be easy since I have job.
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Mar 16, 2019 00:20
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AnnoyBot posted:As a US-ian, I'm curious about how common scenarios are paid (or not paid) for in other exotic lands. If you're outside the US, give the country and state if appropriate. Is the idea that employers should only be on the hook for 40 hours a week while employees are at their mercy uniquely American? No, this is not for a school project; I'm just curious how IT works when outside the wild west labor-lawless 'Murica zone. I'm in Ontario, Canada. I do corp-corp work as a fulltime consultant now and it's actually better for me than when I was salaried. I dictate my own hours and while I don't get OT, I choose how many hours I bill for any out of hours work. -hourly, no hour limits to my knowledge but I never work over 9-5, no overtime, no sick or vacation pay. 1) I'd charge for every hour I worked, minimum 8 hrs/day M-F with OT in 4 hr blocks but this hasn't come up as I haven't worked out of country. 2) I would work 7-3 or would not attend the meeting but this hasn't come up as I haven't worked out of country. 3) I don't do on call and would not without charging my full rate for every hour worked, I dictate my own minimum hours per incident and set it at minimum 4 hours. I've done weekend work that has lasted only an hour and charged for 4. 4) hahahahhaa no 5) I would not charge for this unless it occurred more than once in a blue moon. I charge if I'm asked to work OT, if the day runs late than nah, but this tends to not occur. Most days I leave early or right at 5. Basically I decide how many hours I bill on a given day and my hours get signed off by my supervisor. I would discuss with them if I feel the need to bill more than 8 hours a day, but I haven't worked past 5:30 in the last six months anyways. Most recently I'm consulting for SOC2/ISO compliance and preparing for a domain migration, and the vast majority of the work is drafting in extensive detail architectural, design, and policy documents - think obnoxious US Gov "set this GPO object to these settings, initial and verify" level detail. That work rarely takes me past 3-4 on a given day, so I waltz in at 9:30, leave at 4, and bill a full 8 hours.
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Mar 16, 2019 01:00
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kensei posted:Did you want to move to Portland? We might have openings in your wheelhouse. I really need to get my rear end some more certs. I'm an SME in a few different pieces of fairly-common financial software (common among credit unions, anyway), and have my A+ and my Network+ (got the Network+ last year). Done automation with batch files, Powershell, and SQL (in Oracle databases). Basically, I need to specialize more. I was sort of looking into ITIL, which seems like a good way to get into management, which I think might be a good wheelhouse for me.
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Mar 16, 2019 01:04
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I’m over ten years in to my career and I haven’t felt the need to specialize yet. My core competencies are AD/vmware/storage/powershell, etc. but in my current position I’m doing plenty of Okta, SSO, Azure, automation, etc. There are days that I wish I was doing something else, but the pay is good, my team members are awesome, and it’s a good company to work for so I’ll ride it out for a while.
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Mar 16, 2019 01:18
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devmd01 posted:I’m over ten years in to my career and I haven’t felt the need to specialize yet. My core competencies are AD/vmware/storage/powershell, etc. but in my current position I’m doing plenty of Okta, SSO, Azure, automation, etc. There are days that I wish I was doing something else, but the pay is good, my team members are awesome, and it’s a good company to work for so I’ll ride it out for a while. Like, I have never felt as supported in my work as I do here. I was always an "I'm going to use all my time off" sort of person, but I've actually been cashing a healthy amount of it out here, and I really don't feel any more stressed by it. I like my job.
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Mar 16, 2019 01:22
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Thanatosian posted:I really need to get my rear end some more certs. I'm an SME in a few different pieces of fairly-common financial software (common among credit unions, anyway), and have my A+ and my Network+ (got the Network+ last year). Done automation with batch files, Powershell, and SQL (in Oracle databases). I have an AA degree and have gotten certified in ticketing systems but that's not the end all be all. If you want to talk further, PM me.
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Mar 16, 2019 01:35
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AnnoyBot posted:As a US-ian, I'm curious about how common scenarios are paid (or not paid) for in other exotic lands. If you're outside the US, give the country and state if appropriate. Is the idea that employers should only be on the hook for 40 hours a week while employees are at their mercy uniquely American? No, this is not for a school project; I'm just curious how IT works when outside the wild west labor-lawless 'Murica zone. Are you loving kidding? Get the gently caress out right now. At the very least comp time for everything, and then showing up to work late the day after all of the off hours poo poo, without using the comp time. My boss will straight up decline PTO requests if i have comp time banked and forget about it, telling me to just take the day. I seriously hope I can avoid getting into a situation like the quoted post. I have been lucky. Tetramin fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Mar 16, 2019 |
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Mar 16, 2019 02:33
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Thanatosian posted:AnnoyBot, for the maintenance windows, are you scheduled to work that time, or is that the time you have allotted for bringing down production systems, which you only have to do occasionally? They could be ad hoc, but if you were of a team that did releases, you would be scheduled for eg "10pm Foo app server 1.15 deployment". Or it could be "that db is running hot, schedule a restart for 10pm tomorrow night". I had many weeks where all 3 maintenance windows were used. I didn't mention comp or bonus because in my experience, comp is extremely informal and at the merest whim of management, and bonus is explicitly not for hours. Now: this stuff is not my current job. It's things I've been through in the past, and that I've seen from very close. Though I do have an on call shift now that's only 12 hours. for the 2 weeks (1 week secondary, then primary. But as far as I can tell, this stuff is all pretty common in Silicon Valley ops-land. The bits about if X then you are non-exempt are intriguing, but basically non-actionable because you gotta lawyer up and take on both the cost and the inevitable firing. I'm well paid, so it's not like I'm hurting. The "go find another job" scenario would be tricky to execute on unless Google or Facebook wanted me, or I changed industries. The mortgage makes the latter kind of tricky. The reason I posted this was this article. It drove me crazy that the author never question the insane power that employers have in the US. I'm curious exactly what the limits are elsewhere. I've searched for these kinds of things when emailing my congressperson and the DOL, but failed to find much at all. So here we are. Thanks again for all the responses, keep them coming.
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Mar 16, 2019 03:41
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