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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:You'd have to show how - I definitely recall a big criticism of the film was that there were all these constant upskirt shots of the characters and cleavage popping out everywhere, and was surprised when I rewatched it that the film had neither! That was pretty funny. Sucker Punch is an interesting film to analyze because Snyder is on record saying he was consciously trying to analyze his own tendency to male gaze but at the same time there is also non conscious objectification present so it's a weird hodge podge of deliberate and unconscious objectification.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:48
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Waffles Inc. posted:Ok so...do that? Otherwise what's the "point"? You're just saying things otherwise, why should anyone believe you or have their opinion changed? I am saying my issue with him is that his films have unapologetic male gaze, you are the one who took it is as a personal challenge. I do not see how or why I am supposed to convince you that I see an issue with male gaze in his films
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Mar 26, 2019 15:49
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Sucker Punch is an interesting film to analyze because Snyder is on record saying he was consciously trying to analyze his own tendency to male gaze but at the same time there is also non conscious objectification present so it's a weird hodge podge of deliberate and unconscious objectification. This is otherwise known as "a film", but my point stands, you'd actually have to demonstrate what you're talking about.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:50
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:You'd have to show how - I definitely recall a big criticism of the film was that there were all these constant upskirt shots of the characters and cleavage popping out everywhere, and was surprised when I rewatched it that the film had neither! That was pretty funny. I remember this one guy talking about thousands of "panty-shots" and it's like huh? So I checked and there are none. The characters are even wearing black shorts under the skirts.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:50
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Waffles Inc. posted:Yes, sources to do with specific academic literature and ideology. Readings, etc. Mel Mudkiper posted:I am saying my issue with him is that his films have unapologetic male gaze, you are the one who took it is as a personal challenge. I do not see how or why I am supposed to convince you that I see an issue with male gaze in his films How about a Mod challenge where BOTH of you have to watch the movie and posit examples for your arguments? That sounds fair.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:50
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Franchescanado posted:How about a Mod challenge where BOTH of you have to watch the movie and posit examples for your arguments? That sounds fair. Nah, gimme a sixer or whatever for turning it down or whatever you see fit. I'm just cheesed at "his films have unapologetic male gaze" without even a cursory screenshot. I'll shut up about this one whatever the case though
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Mar 26, 2019 15:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:I remember this one guy talking about thousands of "panty-shots" and it's like huh? So I checked and there are none. The characters are even wearing black shorts under the skirts. That would be a good example of something that's actually "subtle", the presence of a young woman in a school sailor outfit is so thoroughly associated with anime fanservice that it doesn't even need the fanservice to rile someone up.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:54
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:That would be a good example of something that's actually "subtle", the presence of a young woman in a school sailor outfit is so thoroughly associated with anime fanservice that it doesn't even need the fanservice to rile someone up. I mean we do have to acknowledge he chose the short skirts specifically because of its role in sexualization of women characters Like, he literally had short skirt schoolgirls because people connect it with upskirt peeks
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Mar 26, 2019 15:55
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean we do have to acknowledge he chose the short skirts specifically because of its role in sexualization of women characters The entire movie is about women working in a strip club.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:57
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Okay, BvS, Wonder Woman's introduction as WW in costume. She's shot entirely in profile, mostly emphasizing her shoulders and arms, *except* in long action shots, where the camera never pans over her body. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FcPuyyarzw
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Mar 26, 2019 15:57
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I wasn't sincere about the mod challenge, just reminding you it's pretty dumb to tell someone to watch and screencap at 3+ hour movie for an argument when you're not willing to do the legwork yourself.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:57
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean we do have to acknowledge he chose the short skirts specifically because of its role in sexualization of women characters That's what the post I wrote said.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:58
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:That's what the post I wrote said. Yeah I was agreeing with you
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Mar 26, 2019 15:59
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As Diana, the camera never gazes on her body and makes her face the focus of every shot with her in it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6DbVMSCyxY
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Mar 26, 2019 16:01
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I should clarify, I don't have a say in Snyder's male gaze for those specific movies, since I haven't seen Suckerpunch or BvS, but it's certainly present in Dawn of the Dead, 300 and Watchmen.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:03
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Franchescanado posted:I should clarify, I don't have a say in Snyder's male gaze for those specific movies, since I haven't seen Suckerpunch or BvS, but it's certainly present in Dawn of the Dead, 300 and Watchmen. Well no; in Watchmen, shots of SIlk Spectre 2 almost invariably emphasize her face. In action scenes, the cinematography emphasizes the swift motion of her punches and kicks. Her body is frequently obscured altogether. The same is true in Dawn Of The Dead and Watchmen. I think you may be getting male gaze confused with... nudity?
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Mar 26, 2019 16:16
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I think gaze does come into play off of the top of my head, when The Comedian starts his sexual assault thing, when the old men are lusting over the seers, etc. but that would also be character perspective and not audience perspective. I'd have to rewatch though, because I'm pure memory on those.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:23
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Franchescanado posted:The criticism is that Snyder shouldn't talk down to people for disliking his interpretation of a character that's been around decades before he was even a filmmaker, for the sake of "realism" in a fantasy story. He's not talking down to anyone though, like he’s just speaking candidly to an audience that’s wanting to hear his take since he’s been on the receiving end of this hot take poo poo for such a long time. The comment within context is simply that he can't put the lid back on pandora's box or re-enter the garden of eden or whatever, that ship has loving sailed. The wider context of the point he makes is in relation working through the character of Superman, the struggle in trying to have him embody ideals like truth and justice in light of the above. This goes hand in hand with the skepticism over the American Way or American dream “whatever that’s supposed to mean.”
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Mar 26, 2019 16:24
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Darko posted:I think gaze does come into play off of the top of my head, when The Comedian starts his sexual assault thing, when the old men are lusting over the seers, etc. but that would also be character perspective and not audience perspective. I'd have to rewatch though, because I'm pure memory on those. That isn't male gaze, though, he doesn't pornify the assault. In the latter example, the men ogling the virgins are literally deformed monsters!
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Mar 26, 2019 16:28
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well no; in Watchmen, shots of SIlk Spectre 2 almost invariably emphasize her face. In action scenes, the cinematography emphasizes the swift motion of her punches and kicks. Her body is frequently obscured altogether. I disagree. Sex scenes can have male gaze (Dawn of the Dead), or they can be interested in both parties. There is an explicit shot in Dawn of the Dead where two characters have sex, and the frame is focused on the woman's body. There's a cut-away to a male character's face near orgasm, but the sex scene is explicitly interested in the woman. Compared to Watchmen, where Silk Spectre's sex with Dr. Manhatten is focused on her pleasure without being explicit about her body. Sex scenes can have male gaze (Dawn of the Dead), or they can be interested in both parties. Not all of Watchmen's fight scenes are devoid of male gaze, whether or not it's intended:  I would prefer if you just acknowledged I disagree with you, rather than accuse me of being 'confused' or some other low-key insinuation about my observations/intelligence and the legitimacy of my criticisms. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Mar 26, 2019 |
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Mar 26, 2019 16:30
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I think its a bit reductive to quantify male gaze as "pornification" though. Male gaze can be subtle as well. Its the reason why I described Snyder's penchant as "unapologetic". Franchescanado posted:Not all of Watchmen's fight scenes are devoid of male gaze, whether or not it's intended: Yeah, the dude centers cameras on women's butts more than any director I have ever seen. It doesn't have to be explicitly in a sexual context to be like "why is the focal point a butt?"
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Mar 26, 2019 16:31
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yeah, the dude centers cameras on women's butts more than any director I have ever seen. It doesn't have to be explicitly in a sexual context to be like "why is the focal point a butt?" The focal point is a boot (it is framed by a bright white shirt), and it's more explicitly sexual than the other offered examples.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:36
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The focal point is a boot Golden Ratio it
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Mar 26, 2019 16:38
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Franchescanado posted:Not all of Watchmen's fight scenes are devoid of male gaze, whether or not it's intended: You are confused though, because male gaze is not when an rear end is technically visible. It refers to sexual objectification, which is not what's going on there.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:It refers to sexual objectification, which is not what's going on there. thats a pretty reductive definition of it actually
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Mar 26, 2019 16:40
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The focal point is a boot (it is framed by a bright white shirt), and it's more explicitly sexual than the other offered examples. My eye's drawn more towards the thigh than the boot
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Mar 26, 2019 16:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You are confused though, because male gaze is not when an rear end is technically visible. It refers to sexual objectification, which is not what's going on there. Okay, by that rubric,you’re confused. The character is in a leather and spandex outfit explicitly sexualized by her enemies and peers. She is digging a stiletto in the chest of a man while her shiny butt is in the foreground clearly visible. That you don’t see room for sexual objection there by a viewer means you’re confused.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:47
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The screenshot is also misleading because it's at the tail end of a tilt. All emphasis is on the prisoner dropping to the ground with a little bounce, plus a twist of the heel on his belly. Rule of thirds is not the only rule of cinematography. You have lighting, motion, etc. Here's the exact timestamp, if you'd like to check for yourself. https://youtu.be/BQc1C3170e0?t=63  Franchescanado posted:Okay, by that rubric,you’re confused. Male gaze refers to the gaze of the camera, not what the character is wearing. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Mar 26, 2019 |
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Mar 26, 2019 16:48
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RBA Starblade posted:My eye's drawn more towards the thigh than the boot The emphasis is on domination, either way, not her rear end.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The screenshot is also misleading because it's at the tail end of a tilt. All emphasis is on the prisoner dropping to the ground with a little bounce, plus a twist of the heel on his belly. Rule of thirds is not the only rule of cinematography. You have lighting, motion, etc. a woman reveals her exposed thigh and curvature of her buttocks as she twists her stilleto heel into a submissive man - not sexualized Like, even if you want to argue the camera is following the motion, the fact he motion draws attention to the leg and then holds on an image that places the visual focus on a sexualized perspective is still pretty damning
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Mar 26, 2019 16:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:a woman reveals her exposed thigh and curvature of her buttocks as she twists her stilleto heel into a submissive man - not sexualized Male gaze refers to the gaze of the camera, not what the character is wearing. It also does not refer to what the character is doing.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Male gaze refers to the gaze of the camera, Mel Mudkiper posted:a woman reveals her exposed thigh and curvature of her buttocks
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Mar 26, 2019 16:54
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Her rear end is literally the fulcrum of the motion you claim the scene is focusing on.
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Mar 26, 2019 16:55
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There are always going to be things arguable as being gaze or not. My general rule is if the camera is purposely following a woman in the way someone sexual objectifying her would be looking at her that counts (but iffy if the camera is taking the place of a character's eyes that we aren't meant to be sympathizing with - which is why I made that distinction above). However, if you just happen to have boobs or butt in the frame but there is no real long focus on that, then that's where arguments come in, and it often depends on what the person is already bringing in when looking at it.
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Mar 26, 2019 17:11
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Darko posted:and it often depends on what the person is already bringing in when looking at it. While I agree with this on principle, it does open the classic deflection of "I don't see anything, so maybe YOU have the problem and are projecting" Its the cousin of "I am too smart to let movies affect me"
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Mar 26, 2019 17:13
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Her rear end is literally the fulcrum of the motion you claim the scene is focusing on. The male gaze does not refer to whether an rear end is visible. This shot from Vertigo, for example, is the most famous example of male gaze in cinema history:  'The gaze' is a term from Lacanian psychoanalysis, and 'the male gaze' is a variation of the term coined by leftist feminist Laura Mulvey in her essay Visual Pleasure And Narrative Cinema, which you can find online. It's only like six pages.
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Mar 26, 2019 17:14
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I did, but that would suggest random images found on GIS speak to framing and positioning in a scene. In order to accurately demonstrate the process there would have to be multiple images of individual scenes shown in a storyboard to show how the framing of the scene progresses. Here you go. Looking forward to your analysis. https://movie-screencaps.com/batman-v-superman-dawn-justice-2016/
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Mar 26, 2019 17:19
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The male gaze does not refer to whether an rear end is visible. The male gaze claim is not that an rear end is visible and you are being deliberately obtuse by trying to say it is quote:'The gaze' is a term from Lacanian psychoanalysis, and 'the male gaze' is a variation of the term coined by leftist feminist Laura Mulvey in her essay Visual Pleasure And Narrative Cinema, which you can find online. It's only like six pages. Yes, and it supports my argument. PRO-TIP: Don't pull this poo poo on someone who has studied the article before quote:The presence of woman is an indispensable element of the spectacle in a normal narrative film, yet the visual presence tends to work against the development of a story line, to freeze the flow of action in moments of erotic contemplation
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Mar 26, 2019 17:25
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Crimpolioni posted:Here you go. Looking forward to your analysis. Great. Now before I begin, I would like to establish some parameters for the sake of good will. What, exactly, are you looking to be convinced of? What do you currently lack that makes you feel reluctant to consider that Snyder practices aggressive male gaze?
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Mar 26, 2019 17:27
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I don't believe there is male gaze in that action scene - if you actually watch it and don't grab a frame it goes by really fast. It's nowhere near what we got in Justice League from Whedon.
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Mar 26, 2019 17:30
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