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Grendels Dad posted:Not wanting people to die doesn't mean you wont kill people. Batman is a world class gymnast, physically as well as mentally, so killing in the name of preserving life shouldn't be that problematic for him. Read Kingdom Come instead of just those four panels. The entire plot is formed around the fact that Batman refuses to kill and other superheroes will. It's not the only Batman crossover story that uses Batman's refusal to kill as his chief point of contention with other superheroes, but it is one of the clearest and simplest.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFijVu17hoA&t=124s
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Mar 30, 2019 23:14
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Cease to Hope posted:Read Kingdom Come instead of just those four panels. The entire plot is formed around the fact that Batman refuses to kill and other superheroes will. I have read Kingdom Come. Batman never outright refuses to kill. He's all for stopping Luthor and he doesn't use lethal methods to do so, then again he doesn't fight any non-superhuman goons so it's hard to tell how he feels about killing. If you had made a point about how Batman rarely kills named characters, Kingdom Come would work for that because he only punches Luthor out.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:28
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Grendels Dad posted:I have read Kingdom Come. Batman never outright refuses to kill. 
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Mar 30, 2019 23:32
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Cease to Hope posted:BVS is ugly, incoherent nonsense, This is a dumb thing to say because BVS is incredibly well shot and looks beautiful for the majority of its runtime. It is also perfectly coherent. Do you have any real criticisms of the movie? For the record I don't like Snyder's dawn of the dead or sucker punch, I think Batman and Superman are generally silly childish nonsense in most media, but BVS is a very well made film.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:33
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The big conflict in Kingdom Come is superheroes fighting superheroes. Batman's not fighting crooks, and supervilains in that fight. It's a civil war between his former comrades and their legacies. Bonus points, he's calling out Wonder Woman for her bullshit about not killing in that page.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:35
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You might have noticed that they are in the middle of a world-threatening war there. The context kind of matters. Also, haven't you already reached the point where you admitted that there are multiple versions of Batman, and many of them kill? What even is your point here? Are we really back at this "no-kill code is a core part of Batman" bullshit?
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Mar 30, 2019 23:37
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Cease to Hope posted:
“Batman doesn’t deliberately take human/superhuman life, because he doesn’t want to see people die” is not a no-kill rule. It’s extremely carefully worded to allow for exceptions. It allows for unintentional killing. It allows for the killing of sub-human or non-human people. It allows for killing that isn’t arbitrarily distasteful (what exactly does “taking a life” mean?). It arguably allows for reluctant killing.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:38
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Grendels Dad posted:You might have noticed that they are in the middle of a world-threatening war there. The context kind of matters. Yeah, it does. He condemns killing even in the middle of a world-threatening war. "Batman doesn't kill" is a conflict between him and other characters that the story is predicated upon.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:41
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Cease to Hope posted:"Batman doesn't kill" is a conflict between him and other characters that the story is predicated upon. False. That’s not what it says in any of the images you’ve posted.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:False. That’s not what it says in any of the images you’ve posted. Feel free to read the comic at your leisure. Rabelais D posted:This is a dumb thing to say because BVS is incredibly well shot and looks beautiful for the majority of its runtime. It is also perfectly coherent. Vintersorg posted:Your boring is my best set pieces out of every single comic book movie. I don't really want to get into a yeah huh nuh uh slapfight but I'd be interested in an expansion of why you think these things. I think lots of movies aren't very good but that doesn't make takes on what people liked about them any less interesting to me. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 23:43
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Cease to Hope posted:Feel free to read the comic at your leisure. I have. Again, an actual no-kill rule would clearly state that, if anyone dies as a result of Wayne’s actions as Batman, he will immediately cease to be Batman. A rule against “deliberately taking a life” is not that.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Again, an actual no-kill rule would clearly state that, if anyone dies as a result of Wayne’s actions as Batman, he will immediately cease to be Batman. Those are some remarkably mobile goalposts.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:49
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Cease to Hope posted:Those are some remarkably mobile goalposts. So you admit that your no-kill rule allows for some killing. I’ve consistently stated that a no-kill rule should actually prohibit all forms of killing.
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Mar 30, 2019 23:51
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Mar 30, 2019 23:52
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMKzWB3sDFc
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Mar 30, 2019 23:57
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Nerds aren’t claiming the existence of a “less-kill rule”, Cease. Rubber Mike. Honest.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:00
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Someone post the panels of Batman straight up shooting Darkseid while saying "I swore not to use guns, but I'll make an exception for you!"
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Mar 31, 2019 00:02
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Cease to Hope posted:Yeah, it does. He condemns killing even in the middle of a world-threatening war. "Batman doesn't kill" is a conflict between him and other characters that the story is predicated upon. No he doesn't and no it isn't. He mocks her for failing to de-escalate even though that's kinda her job. The conflict between Batman and Superman in KC is about control against faith. Earlier in the story it is revealed that Batman has literally replaced Gotham's police with Bat Robots, and it is implied in several places throughout the story that he runs the city like a fascist state. This is sadly not commented on at the end, where it gets all touchy feely, but for the most part KC's Batman is absolutely one whose Bat Robots would kill a gangster if they had to.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:04
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garycoleisgod posted:Someone post the panels of Batman straight up shooting Darkseid while saying "I swore not to use guns, but I'll make an exception for you!" See also the infamous story where Batman locks KGBeast in a sewer and leaves him to starve to death, saying that sometimes you need to break the rules in the name of Justice.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:04
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Grendels Dad posted:No he doesn't and no it isn't. He mocks her for failing to de-escalate even though that's kinda her job. Batman is criticizing Wonder Woman for killing a Nazi who is trying to kill her during a battle for the fate of the entire planet. It is consistent with his characterization throughout of someone who is maniacally fixated on the idea of not killing people, regardless of the context. If you read that story and cannot understand how someone could reasonably read it and come away with the conclusion that this Batman guy's character is that of someone who is opposed to killing, then you aren't interested in any read of any work that doesn't serve your own agenda.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:13
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nerds aren’t claiming the existence of a “less-kill rule”, Cease. 
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Mar 31, 2019 00:15
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Cease to Hope posted:Batman is criticizing Wonder Woman for killing a Nazi who is trying to kill her during a battle for the fate of the entire planet. It is consistent with his characterization throughout of someone who is maniacally fixated on the idea of not killing people, regardless of the context. Sure, I'll happily admit that you could reasonably come away with that reading. So what's your loving point again?
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Mar 31, 2019 00:15
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Grendels Dad posted:Sure, I'll happily admit that you could reasonably come away with that reading. So what's your loving point again? Cease to Hope posted:Batman has a rule that he doesn't kill, holds would-be heroes who do kill in contempt, and lots of stories - especially throughout the 90s and 00s- are based on the complications of this rule. It's particularly a plot point in stories where he's interacting with other heroes, either his own supporting cast (Azrael, Red Hood) or crossover comics (Justice League especially). It most famously takes the form of an answer to the question of why he hasn't just executed the Joker. (It's because the Joker is marketable, unlike the short-lived villains of the many Batman and Wolverine knockoffs of the 90s, but that isn't very satisfying explanation of his motivations as a character.) There's also the entire visual language of comics, where Batman doesn't use the forms of violence that are coded as deadly, especially guns, and the fact that if someone isn't shown to be a corpse, they aren't dead in either a practical or moral sense. (Again, this works best in contrast with other characters: an example I have handy is Year One, which contrasts Batman's acrobatics and increasingly baroque non-lethal weapons with Gordon shooting people in the head and chest.)
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Mar 31, 2019 00:17
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lol okay I'm out, trying to explain to you the difference between "is opposed to killing" and your lovely no-kill code is indeed hopeless.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:23
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Grendels Dad posted:lol okay I'm out, trying to explain to you the difference between "is opposed to killing" and your lovely no-kill code is indeed hopeless. You are trying to write a third story, one that reconciles the stories where Batman is philosophically opposed to killing people and indeed does not kill people even with good cause, and the stories where Batman straight up shoots a guy. So much so that you read a comic where Batman doesn't kill anyone and added your own deleted content chapter where he totally does. You are falling into the same trap as the fanboys you're criticizing, rationalizing away all of the stories predicated on Batman being the guy who doesn't kill (chiefly by defining "Batman doesn't kill" so narrowly that it's meaningless), the same way the fanboys you are critical of rationalize away all of the stories where Batman stuffs dynamite in someone's pants. They can just be different stories.
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Mar 31, 2019 00:31
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Cease to Hope posted:(chiefly by defining "Batman doesn't kill" so narrowly that it's meaningless) Whatever rule Batman may have based on the evidence you've provided, he never breaks it in BvS. He almost does and then Martha happens. Martman fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 00:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:This is the entire point of the Red Hood character. Robin must eventually grow up and so the symbol of naïveté is killed and replaced by the ultimate villain: an adult who thinks Batman is dumb. The Red Hood is the Joker, chum.
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Mar 31, 2019 01:01
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Cease to Hope posted:Batman is criticizing Wonder Woman for killing a Nazi who is trying to kill her during a battle for the fate of the entire planet. It is consistent with his characterization throughout of someone who is maniacally fixated on the idea of not killing people, regardless of the context. That this no-kill rule makes its crescendo into “All Lives Matter” and equating anti-fascists with fascists is one hell of an unsurprising punchline.
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Mar 31, 2019 01:01
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How many murders does Batman do in suicide skwad
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Mar 31, 2019 01:01
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vseslav.botkin posted:The Red Hood is the Joker, chum. You're not very familiar with the past 15 years of Batman lore, are you?
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Mar 31, 2019 01:02
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brawleh posted:That this no-kill rule makes its crescendo into “All Lives Matter” and equating anti-fascists with fascists is one hell of an unsurprising punchline. That's not even the half of it. This is from the triumphant ending, showing us some of the reformed anti-heroes and villains who survived being nuked integrating into society.  I really don't like Kingdom Come.
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Mar 31, 2019 01:15
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RBA Starblade posted:How many murders does Batman do in suicide skwad Batman bravely uses a child as a human shield. e: and Deadshot who has the 'no kill' rule, in front of his daughter.
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Mar 31, 2019 01:24
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Detective No. 27 posted:You're not very familiar with the past 15 years of Batman lore, are you? https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Dick_Grayson_(Frank_Miller) Robin is the Joker.
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Mar 31, 2019 01:26
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Detective No. 27 posted:You're not very familiar with the past 15 years of Batman lore, are you? Or with the mythological narrative. Gordon asserts, in that page posted earlier, that if Batman starts killing for vengeance and not in service of the law, he will ‘cross the line’ and become a supervillain like Joker. With Jason Todd, this assertion is literalized: Robin becomes Red Hood (a Vengeful Batman), and then “Red Hood” is revealed to be the name of a prototypical Joker. This is the same narrative as with Reaper: Batman vengefully kills Joe Chill and is baptized the new Reaper, but then represses this aspect of himself - being tormented by Joker forever after. Batman comics keep repeating the same narrative with slight variations, and none of them are about no-killing. They’re all about a very particular type of vengeance.
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Mar 31, 2019 02:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Or with the mythological narrative. You seem confused: the Joker is the Red Hood, who is also Robin. It's not a coincidence that this is tied together in the sequel to the best known Batman comic. Even the third Arkham game explores this.
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Mar 31, 2019 02:24
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vseslav.botkin posted:You seem confused: the Joker is the Red Hood, who is also Robin. It's not a coincidence that this is tied together in the sequel to the best known Batman comic. Even the third Arkham game explores this. Same difference. Like I said, they’re slight variations on the same stories, repeated over and over - producing a single argument about Batman’s relationship with the cops, how his ‘belief in the law’, supposedly makes him more than just a criminal. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 02:50
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Batman's personal rule in recent times is "no guns" because his parents were killed with them. He tells his subordinates not to kill because he doesn't trust them doing it. Although he will use guns in extreme circumstances. Like shooting Darkseid or in the Nolan movies, finally growing the hell up when he realizes he actually *has* to shoot someone to save the city.
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Mar 31, 2019 02:51
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Cease to Hope posted:I think most of the Snyder superhero hate comes from the fact that he made some dour, joyless movies with boring set pieces. I think "being Superman is a terrible responsibility but you have to rise up to meet it" is a real bummer, especially since nobody seems particularly happy to be there. (Dark Knight Rises has a lot of the same problems!) BVS is ugly, incoherent nonsense, overstuffed with a mix of trying to fit too much into the story and trying to kick off a franchise. Cease, as was previously pointed out by other people, it was already very apparent how the “All Lives Matter” aspect of this no-kill mythos ideological function serves to obfuscate - “think of the children!” And that BvS directly calls attention to this when confronting the reader, but just going to roll things back a little here to the above quote. The uplifting aspect of Man of Steel, is precisely that despite "being Superman is a terrible responsibility but you have to rise up to meet it"; Clark is nonetheless driven by love in both committing to and choosing his responsibility - his duty. That’s the important aspect of Christs role in the narrative that the imagery draws attention to, the virtual force of Christs love - the holy spirit.  So when you say ‘people’ like Superman stories because they’re generally uplifting and inspiring; That ‘people’ don’t enjoy MoS because it’s a real bummer, since nobody seems happy to be there; That Snyder misunderstands why ‘people’ like those “uplifting and inspiring” stories, misses the point that he expressly does understand why people like those stories; And that this reaction to Snyder’s work is one rooted in ideology. Like, BvS isn’t incoherent nonsense least of all because of what it confronts the reader with, so where does your confusion stem from? brawleh fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 03:51
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brawleh posted:And that this reaction to Snyder’s work is one rooted in ideology. I don't think reacting negatively to expecting an uplifting movie and getting a washed-out movie with grim characters, depressing themes, and what feels like a solid hour of repetitive face-pounding fights is "rooted in ideology". I wouldn't characterize a heavy-handed Christ allegory where the would-be Superchrist kills a man because he has no choice as uplifting. I'm more interested in why you enjoyed it than why you think everyone who dislikes it is secretly a a pearl-clutching conservative.
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Mar 31, 2019 05:13
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