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Shady Amish Terror posted:Now there's an interesting thought experiment. Have any of the other Crawl forks tried to impose the Nethack philosophy onto Crawl's existing structure? In my mind it's like the roguelike equivalent of that 'cursed image' thing. It would be an interesting feat to do for an April Fools joke, possibly as a sprint level. Each section being a different rogue-like.
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Apr 6, 2019 16:49
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Crawl's design principles, despite being dragged through the mud a bit in the past few years, is still rock solid. I'm surprised at the amount of other RLs that have one-way stairs, and the ones that don't instead actively encourage grinding/scumming. Crawl's approach (to me) is quite intuitive, you have free reign to take your time and go revisit areas, but no real advancement can be made without forging into new areas. Off the top of my head: Crawl, DoomRL, Sil, & Cogmind - I've 'beaten', so to speak TOME4 & Qud - have dipped into very breifly Tangledeep & Dredmor - bounced off these two HARD FTL, Everspace, Necrodancer, Spelunky, etc etc etc - Various RL inspired stuff. I'm sure I'm missing many, but my point is that all of them have forced progression, with a few instead fully embracing the grind of vendor scumming etc. I really and truly appreciate the effort that's been made to keep DCSS scumm-free, even if the dev's zeal sometimes takes them to odd places that non-HOM's never go. That, combined with a bunch of other stuff about cleaning out old RL cruft like gotchas, really makes me feel like Crawl is the 'default' RL experience, with other games taking strong stylizations for gameplay and fluff. I know the emtomology is quite the opposite, shh. Oh poo poo wait Brogue, brogue does it amazingly with a tight as hell foodclock. I should go DL it again and try to stop sucking at it, geez. Serephina fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 17:33
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Serephina posted:Crawl's design principles, despite being dragged through the mud a bit in the past few years, is still rock solid. I'm surprised at the amount of other RLs that have one-way stairs, and the ones that don't instead actively encourage grinding/scumming. Crawl's approach (to me) is quite intuitive, you have free reign to take your time and go revisit areas, but no real advancement can be made without forging into new areas. Honestly I think TOME4 does it better. It's not mired in difficulty-for-difficulty sake that plagues a lot of Crawl.
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Apr 6, 2019 17:49
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I wouldn't call "stop having fun wrong!!!" much of a design philosophy, but then again, I already gave up on Trunk crawl literally years ago, so it's not like I'm the target demographic anymore.
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Apr 6, 2019 18:02
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I gave up on Trunk when they removed rMut.
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Apr 6, 2019 19:15
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Shady Amish Terror posted:Now there's an interesting thought experiment. Have any of the other Crawl forks tried to impose the Nethack philosophy onto Crawl's existing structure? In my mind it's like the roguelike equivalent of that 'cursed image' thing.
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Apr 6, 2019 19:27
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One-way stairs are good and crawl should add them. Hell crawl is my trunk. Though quickcrawl is pretty fun too.
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Apr 6, 2019 21:08
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We have them. They’re orange. 
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Apr 6, 2019 21:09
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So what I'm hearing here is we should re-implement trapdoor tomb. 
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Apr 6, 2019 21:13
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Floodkiller posted:Thanks for the debug. I'll probably leave the enchant lower anyway because less error messages are good. Yaaaay I'm helping! 
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Apr 6, 2019 23:28
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Come back into the zot 5 entry vault with the orb and a Pan Lord blocking the entrance turns my Fairy Dragon caster into a pig then casts silence then summons a balrog. And only one lung was cleared because I'd shattered my way to the orb. And this was the only item left equipped: the amulet of Meghain (around neck) {Harm *Drain Str-2 Int+9 Dex+4} I had to use both phantom mirrors, box of beasts, and phial of floods to get out of the silence, then 2 hastes, 8 heal wounds, and 5 tports as a freaking pig before I finally land outside the vault. Holy crap do you stay a pig a long time... edit: oh also I hadn't found a potion of cancellation all game either... Araganzar fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 23:37
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Bogart posted:We have them. They’re orange.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:38
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PMush Perfect posted:There's no way triple swords would survive that move. I dunno, Nethack loves its goofy and dumb stuff.
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Apr 7, 2019 03:06
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Coulda sworn they already renamed them to claymores just a while ago.
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Apr 7, 2019 03:22
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They got renamed by some fun hater weapons nerd who was all "but they're not even physically viable as a weapon!", but got changed back to double/triple swords in a rare instance of fun winning in trunk.
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Apr 7, 2019 03:28
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Claymores were in version 0.14 because of kilobyte and were brought back to true form by doy in 0.16. 
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Apr 7, 2019 03:52
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quote:a rare instance of fun winning in trunk.
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Apr 7, 2019 04:02
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I wouldn't even say Trunk hates fun, really. It just has a weirdly narrow definition of fun sometimes.
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Apr 7, 2019 04:22
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Remember when I said FD might make a good melee?  enhance...  enhance...  no, no, this can't be possible. ENHANCE.  not possible. enhance.   edit: just got it going on D2.... Araganzar fucked around with this message at 05:30 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 04:51
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I think that monster is about to be cut down to size.
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Apr 7, 2019 05:08
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The slashiest little butterfly.
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Apr 7, 2019 05:11
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The way permabuffs work make level 5-6 ones castable very very early Speaking of permabuffs, is there any chance of having ozo's only fade temporarily upon taking fire damage, and refresh itself once you're out of combat? So you don't have to recast it, or, more realistically for me, forget to recast it
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Apr 7, 2019 05:12
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PET KITTY NO CURSE THESE D2 BLADE HANDS
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Apr 7, 2019 05:31
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Can you spot what's wrong with this picture? (This is CPO)
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Apr 7, 2019 08:35
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Yeah, who the hell plays Deep Elves any more
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Apr 7, 2019 08:39
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if someone is actually using crab language other than haif I'll send FK a couple fixes, notably since mage = castercrab, you see a lot of creatures that are barely decastercrabed.
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Apr 7, 2019 08:50
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Araganzar posted:if someone is actually using crab language other than haif I'll send FK a couple fixes, notably since mage = castercrab, you see a lot of creatures that are barely decastercrabed. josephine is also "slingy crabmanine" because her name contains joseph, if you feel like getting into it
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Apr 7, 2019 09:20
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did somebody say slingy crab marine
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Apr 7, 2019 10:04
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We all live with a slingy crab marine, a slingy crab marine, a slingy crab marine! also, RARR I'M A FAIRY DRAGON:  The blade hands thing is really more abusive because FD starts with +6AC and +6EV and therefore is a very tough glass cannon. But so is a minotaur with a war axe. FD is just a strong hybrid start. You can start Sk and have regen, song of slaying, shroud, spec weapon all castable at low failure very fast because you have 5 more AC than a robe user. Or start IE and have Ozo's. I think maybe not allow permabuffs to be cast unless failure rate is 50% or less like with the servitor. That would prevent total abuse while not making it a pain in the rear end where you feel like you have to get regen down to 5% or you're gonna lose MP or have it go down at the worst time. Araganzar fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 13:49
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I hear that shaving helps with that.quote:The blade hands thing is really more abusive Right now, this really pushes it in the direction of letting you get away with stuff you really weren't supposed to.
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Apr 7, 2019 15:08
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I'm sorry, but what's the goodncrawl implementation of permabuffs exactly? How on earth is one allowed to have buffs active if they've got poor casting chances? edit: I always kind of assumed the most naive implementation just auto-recasts buffs as they expire. This leads to unintended behavior such as flight expiring for 0 turns and dying in lava, or mana getting drained suddenly mid-fight as things recast, but I always kind of assumed that permabuff implementations where aware of all these edge cases and where designed with them in mind. Didn't someone mention that hellcrawl (?) eats your entire maxmp if your cast rate is poo poo? etc. Serephina fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 16:39
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Just poked my head into Zot. Is it worth going into extended? Never done it before. I haven't found any brand weapon scrolls and I kinda stupidly used a bunch of my enchant weapon scrolls thinking that Okawaru would for SURE have given me a good artifact triple sword by now. I'm really not looking forward to trying to charge into new territory with pretty good gear but also the world's shittiest swordswordsword. Edit: Definitely not 15-runing, fuuuuck that. I just mean picking up a few like Abyss, Slime, Tomb, etc. Edit2: Proud to report, though, that even with a lovely weapon, Scroll of Immolation and RF+++ still demolishes Vaults 5 in an incredibly entertaining way. Edit3: "Pmush is that really your best amulet?" Yes. I wasted three acquire scrolls trying to get better jewelry and I'm pissed. One of them was my first ring of rCorr at least(?) girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 16:54
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Serephina posted:I'm sorry, but what's the goodncrawl implementation of permabuffs exactly? How on earth is one allowed to have buffs active if they've got poor casting chances? Your max MP is reduced by the cost of the spell and then you have the effect permanently (until you end it) You are correct that in Hellcrawl a low success rate means it consumes more MP
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Apr 7, 2019 17:04
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Serephina posted:edit: I always kind of assumed the most naive implementation just auto-recasts buffs as they expire. This leads to unintended behavior such as flight expiring for 0 turns and dying in lava, or mana getting drained suddenly mid-fight as things recast, but I always kind of assumed that permabuff implementations where aware of all these edge cases and where designed with them in mind. Didn't someone mention that hellcrawl (?) eats your entire maxmp if your cast rate is poo poo? etc. Are you saying I have a buff problem? I don't have a buff problem!  cheetah7071 posted:Your max MP is reduced by the cost of the spell and then you have the effect permanently (until you end it) You also lose all your buffs if you change any armor pieces. Clearly having blade hands up on D2 is unintended. Maybe if the cast % ever goes above 50% it should drop so you can't get into a spell with wizardry, brilliance, and/or +INT and then let it go back to 100%. Having it periodically check failure % or periodically/randomly take MP leads to all kinds of unfun as mentioned above by Serephina. This way you could lose them due to being stat drained or putting on a -INT item or something but all those strike me as interesting unintended consequences rather than constantly annoying ones. Here is the game for reference anyway. pre:Araganzar the Acrobat (Faerie Dragon Transmuter) Turns: 60421, Time: 04:16:09
Health: 257/257 AC: 34 Str: 42 XL: 27
Magic: 10/22 EV: 52 Int: 43 God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold: 6513 SH: 26 Dex: 51 Spells: 0/57 levels left
rFire + + + SeeInvis + - Unarmed
rCold + + . Gourm . f - +3 buckler {rF+}
rNeg + . . Faith . (armour unavailable)
rPois ∞ Spirit . G - +2 hat
rElec + Reflect + L - +0 cloak of the Valley {*Contam rElec rC+ Slay+4} (curse)
rCorr + Harm . (gloves currently unavailable)
MR +++.. (boots currently unavailable)
Stlth ++........ U - amulet of the Monkey {Reflect *Corrode Int+3 Dex+4 Slay+2 SH+5}
HPRegen 1.52/turn T - ring "Kautuuw" {MR+ Dex+5}
MPRegen 0.18/turn Q - ring "Pium Cigh" {*Contam Str+10 Dex+3 Slay+3 SInv}
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Apr 7, 2019 17:10
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cheetah7071 posted:Your max MP is reduced by the cost of the spell and then you have the effect permanently (until you end it)
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Apr 7, 2019 17:13
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Cardiovorax posted:Yeah, that. It's still a fairly new feature and a work in progress. I've suggested that we do something like Hellcrawl's interpretation before and I still think it's a good idea. At high success rates it won't matter, but at low rates, it'll effectively average out to the cost of having to make multiple attempts to recast things in combat. Right now, permabuffs are insanely more cost-effective than any targeted spell of equal success rate.
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Apr 7, 2019 17:17
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PMush Perfect posted:What if the MP cost is literally just increased by your failure chance? That, or +1 MP for every 10% of the failrate, but that feels punishing. That's how hellcrawl does it. I don't know how it handles the success rate changing after the buff is up. Presumably it updates the cost but that means that if a mummy drains you you might suddenly lose your entire MP bar
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Apr 7, 2019 17:19
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PMush Perfect posted:What if the MP cost is literally just increased by your failure chance? That, or +1 MP for every 10% of the failrate, but that feels punishing. Yes, it's punishing, but it's meant to be. Permabuffs are just honestly a bit too powerful right now. There has to be a reason for you to still invest XP in buff skills.
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Apr 7, 2019 17:28
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I feel like if this change is implemented, haste could become a permabuff. As a level 9 spell it seems fine to eliminate the contamination effect, assuming that it's actually as difficult to cast as a level 9 spell usually is.
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Apr 7, 2019 17:33
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PMush Perfect posted:Just poked my head into Zot. Is it worth going into extended? Never done it before. I haven't found any brand weapon scrolls and I kinda stupidly used a bunch of my enchant weapon scrolls thinking that Okawaru would for SURE have given me a good artifact triple sword by now. I'm really not looking forward to trying to charge into new territory with pretty good gear but also the world's shittiest swordswordsword. Huge Disclaimer: I am kind of a moron and I play this game intermittently. None of my advice should be treated as canonical best-practice. With that said: A win is a win, but if you're interested in trying out some of the other extended areas, I'd say that I'd feel largely comfortable in the Abyss with your equipment set; the problem is that the threats in the Abyss can vary from 'tons of popcorn and minor inconveniences' to 'immediately lethal in 2 turns' almost instantly, and if you're not familiar with the way the various Abyss threats synergize you can potentially die very quickly. It's generally the safest way to accrue gear for tackling other extended areas, but that can be a very, very slow process. I will say there's nothing wrong with a regen amulet, either, that's a solid slot choice well into extended. The main problem I see is the glaring lack of MR+. Magic Resistance is pretty key for a lot of later areas where you can end up seeing loads of spell-casters; there's few worse feelings than losing a character to failing hex resistance checks a couple of times. If you haven't done Crypt, that's probably the safest place to scrounge outside of the main 3-rune areas, actually, although you have to be wary of curse skulls, liches, and some potentially quite nasty vaults. Next is probably Abyss (which I generally find to be safer, if a little slower, than clearing Vault 5 for its rune), provided you're very careful with how you handle the various enemies that can lock you down and hellfire you to death. Slime is...surprisingly nasty, actually, getting polymorphed and then dogpiled by the various eye enemies can be very, very bad, and TRJ can be an absolute bastard. If you can handle all of those areas, then believe it or not Hell is...still dangerous, yes, but its difficulty spikes aren't really worse than what Pan can throw at you. And Tomb is just balls and wants you to play really, extremely slow, and can still potentially kill you even if you do that right. E: Okay, rereading the dump and actually seeing your branches, I'm guessing you've cleared Elf already? Crypt is kind of a no-brainer for your next area to poke into if that's the case, and as a bonus the final floor tends to have lots of nice loot. More rN would be nice, but isn't really necessary for it. Just be prepared to bail if a dangerous caster shows up with an entourage.
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Apr 7, 2019 17:41
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