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Crasical posted:That reminds me. IIRC, Thinning the gauntlet is bad because more spirits will start reaching or coming across it to fiddle with the normal world to get their preferred form of essence (The spirits of deathmurder are gonna want deathmurder which is obviously bad, the spirits of Amusing Flatulence are going to be desperate for essence and have no conception that giving someone magical IBS is not cool), and so on and so forth. Also normal people might wander into the Shadow which is RIP them. Based on what DaveB was saying, it sounds like this is probably a leftover from Forsaken as sequel to Apocalypse since in WtA, the gauntlet is thickened in cities because of the Weaver.
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Apr 9, 2019 21:33
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Thickening the gauntlet is bad because if it gets too thick then essence doesn't flow back and the shadow suffers, which causes the physical world to suffer due to the sympathetic resonance. It's thicker in cities as an artifact of Apocalypse but it also makes having and protecting your locus more important since that's your best point of access to the Shadow. Having too much gauntlet is just as bad as having too little gauntlet. Which is why the beshilu and the <Spiders who's name I have forgotten> are both bad and need to be opposed.
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Apr 9, 2019 21:42
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Crasical posted:That reminds me. IIRC, Thinning the gauntlet is bad because more spirits will start reaching or coming across it to fiddle with the normal world to get their preferred form of essence (The spirits of deathmurder are gonna want deathmurder which is obviously bad, the spirits of Amusing Flatulence are going to be desperate for essence and have no conception that giving someone magical IBS is not cool), and so on and so forth. Also normal people might wander into the Shadow which is RIP them. It pisses off werewolves, mostly, and the Spider Hosts are jerks.
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Apr 9, 2019 21:43
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The Azlu want a thicc gauntlet because humans cut off from their spiritual side will be docile, easy prey.
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Apr 9, 2019 21:50
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Kurieg posted:Thickening the gauntlet is bad because if it gets too thick then essence doesn't flow back and the shadow suffers, which causes the physical world to suffer due to the sympathetic resonance. It's thicker in cities as an artifact of Apocalypse but it also makes having and protecting your locus more important since that's your best point of access to the Shadow. I'm not sure there's actually any sympathetic resonance going on, is the thing. You certainly can't kill a cat by going into the Shadow and murdering the cat-spirit that it birthed. A thicker gauntlet results in hungrier, angrier, more desperate spirits, but the important factor is that they're on the other side of the now-thickened gauntlet and less able to reach across and effect the real world. With a Gauntlet too thick to be crossed, eventually that region of the shadow will turn into a Barren, and all the spirits will leave to go hunt elsewhere. The only references to consequences to the mortal world to suffer are pretty buried, the 'Humans will fell apathetic, animals will try and leave the area'. Hence 'People will feel slightly bad'. The Azlu are problematic because they hunt and kill people more than them tampering with the gauntlet, the primary consequence of which is 'It's hard to use Gifts', which, oh no, the poor werewolves can't use their magic powers. EDIT: quote:Old Men (Kur-Abha) are among the oldest and most powerful spirits werewolves will encounter; the spirits of mountains. Appearing as giant faces formed out of rock formations on the Shadow forms of their associated peaks, the Old Men don’t move — supplicants have to go to them. Mountain spirits are Ensah at least — Everest, K2, and other globally-famous peaks are Dihirim, if not more powerful. Fortunately, the mountains are content to watch millions of years go by for the most part, but the exceptions are dramatic and extremely dangerous. The spirits of mountains that have killed too many mountaineers hunger for death-resonance, and packs in volcanic regions struggle to placate the spirits of fire-peaks that threaten to bathe the Hisil in lava unless their demands are met. VOLCANO GOD AAAAAA VOLCANO GOD KIDNAPPED BY HAWAIIAN WEREWOLVES, THROWN INTO VOLCANO. Crasical fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 9, 2019 22:00
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Spirit is life-force, vitalism. I don't think you can have life and motion without spirit in the long run. Plus spirits reinforcing their natural causes in the Flesh is the normal ecosystem of the world; cutting that off is unlikely to be 'fine, don't worry about it' any more than any major change to an ecosystem.
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Apr 9, 2019 22:07
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nature abhors a vacuum but that doesnt mean being inside of a low-pressure system is good for things
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Apr 9, 2019 22:20
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Crasical posted:I'm not sure there's actually any sympathetic resonance going on, is the thing. You certainly can't kill a cat by going into the Shadow and murdering the cat-spirit that it birthed. A thicker gauntlet results in hungrier, angrier, more desperate spirits, but the important factor is that they're on the other side of the now-thickened gauntlet and less able to reach across and effect the real world. With a Gauntlet too thick to be crossed, eventually that region of the shadow will turn into a Barren, and all the spirits will leave to go hunt elsewhere. The only references to consequences to the mortal world to suffer are pretty buried, the 'Humans will fell apathetic, animals will try and leave the area'. Barrens are basically spiritually, emotionally dead places bereft of any memory. And while werewolf gets the focus, supernatural powers in general seem hindered (based on the bluebook, the Book of the Spirit, quoted here). 'In the real world, such places give hints of their desolation: a sea of gray cubicles, an abandoned street whose air is staid and whose landscape is colorless or a lifeless pond without a glimpse of fish or algae atop its unmoving surface.' 'Any supernatural powers are hampered in a Barren. Mage and werewolf powers that rely on the spirit world to function (such as Spirit magic or a werewolf’s Gifts) suffer a –3 dice penalty. All other preternatural abilities are given over to a –1 die penalty. One’s emotional response is also muted. Characters feel emotions less strongly, be it sadness or anger, love or hate. For this reason, any intense emotional response (such as a werewolf’s Death Rage or a vampire’s frenzy) is also muted. Characters receive a +2 dice bonus to any Resolve + Composure roll meant to resist such a state of intense emotion.' There's also the reason they do it in the first place, driven down to a biological level to believe that if you build big enough webs the Spinner Hag will be reborn. And while people may think Ariadne's great waifu material no one wants Azluzilla spawning an endless torrent of insta-claiming spiderbabies all over the world. nofather fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 9, 2019 22:41
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You create some art, and someone comes along and appreciates that art. The essence created by this feeds and Art spirit in the shadow, which uses it's influence to cause more people to come and appreciate your art, creating more food for itself. Later it employs its influence to help inspire you to make more art, and the cycle repeats. OR You create some art, and someone comes along and appreciates that art. Nobody else really gives a poo poo though. Lacking feedback or inspiration, you mostly just give up on making art. Welcome to depression.
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Apr 9, 2019 22:41
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01011001 posted:Yeah, there's nothing inherently bad with someone trying to make something good out of Beast. I don't view it as a good reason for it to exist though if it's only usable in non-horrible ways if you ignore half of it. In a Mage game, the GM introduced a Beast as an antagonist. The party's response was the burn it with fire. Just a nice big team effort to get the biggest fire they could. It made for a wonderful team building exercise in character and out. So that feels like a good use of Beasts.
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Apr 9, 2019 22:41
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More generally speaking, imagine if scientists found out that our area of the universe was proximate to some mysterious subquantum realm with which we have numerous poorly-understood interactions, and had been for the entire history of the Earth. Now imagine that they found out that we were moving inexorably away from that area. Should we worry?
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Apr 9, 2019 23:06
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Tricky Dick Nixon posted:with the implication that their presence brings the Huntsmen and attention of the Fae, I'd be less inclined to have them around Not to mention a high concentration of Lost probably means a lot of True Fae activity in the region in the first place
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Apr 9, 2019 23:07
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Rand Brittain posted:More generally speaking, imagine if scientists found out that our area of the universe was proximate to some mysterious subquantum realm with which we have numerous poorly-understood interactions, and had been for the entire history of the Earth. Now imagine that they found out that we were moving inexorably away from that area. In nWoD, I would check to see if that's the core depressive metaphor of this gameline or not. Thomamelas posted:In a Mage game, the GM introduced a Beast as an antagonist. The party's response was the burn it with fire. Just a nice big team effort to get the biggest fire they could. It made for a wonderful team building exercise in character and out. So that feels like a good use of Beasts.
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Apr 9, 2019 23:46
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Nessus posted:In nWoD, I would check to see if that's the core depressive metaphor of this gameline or not. CofD contracts being what they are, and public statements made by both Matt and Rich taken at face value. Matt sees no money from new purchases of Beast. Still do not buy Beast.
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Apr 9, 2019 23:52
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what does an area thats got a changeling freehold on top of its poo poo tend to look like, actually
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Apr 10, 2019 00:01
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In the Lost, freeholds aren't always or usually something in the Hedge (another world). I'm pretty sure some example freeholds just have local changelings renting out the company rooms at the local Marriott. EDIT: Ah yeah you sometimes have Hollow commons (at least in first edition) which were safe spots in the Hedge, but you also had mortal commons. Either way it depends on how important people find the freehold, and how much sway the people involved have in the hedge or mortal world. So you have the Marriott on one hand, and the drug cartel fortress in another (they make new changelings do the gruntwork for like a year, then they can either leave or become a manager/boss, who mostly profits off the freeholds drug trade). While a Hedge freehold's place could be a cramped chamber like a hobbithole or a grand mansion. I don't think they have much impact on the surrounding area unless a Keeper comes in. Freeholds tend to try to have privacy (which can mean no surveillance/law enforcement nearby, or surveillance/police that's just loyal to some of their people), so that can be an issue. It's a bit like Elysium, I think. nofather fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 01:04
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i mean in the context of how it affects the lives of the people who are not particularly plugged into the supernatural aspect of the world of darkness an area controlled by a competent vampire presence is going to be kinda hosed up, because vampires thrive in lovely conditions an area controlled by wolves who have their poo poo on lock probably is gonna be p healthy idk if you can say anything definite about an area controlled by mages, for a few reasons what does an area under the influence of a thriving freehold look like
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Apr 10, 2019 01:20
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maybe the more general concept of a community is more what im looking for
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Apr 10, 2019 01:21
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It would probably look either "pretty normal" or "slightly nicer than average" because the highest priorities of the Lost are "keep your heads down" and "discourage predators."
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Apr 10, 2019 01:27
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nofather posted:In the Lost, freeholds aren't always or usually something in the Hedge (another world). I'm pretty sure some example freeholds just have local changelings renting out the company rooms at the local Marriott.  I think you mean the Four Season.EDIT: It's gonna depend a lot on what the local Changelings are like. Changelings are immensely varied in their various philosophies and organizational structures; mostly they'll wanna keeps their heads down, but some are gonna start doing like, fey trickster deals with mortals for glamour and soforth (Especially in 1e when said deals were much more potent.) Changelings are very generally want to maintain the conditions of a location, keep it free from supernatural and mortal predators, and mystically fortify it against the True Fey and the Gentry. Under the new rules using a door as a hedge-gate of convenience turns it into a dormant portal semi-permentantly so unless the freehold polices that sort of thing people might stumble into the hedge a lot more often. People also might be very slightly enervated because having your emotions sucked by a Changeling does eat a dot of Willpower. Crasical fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 01:47
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Crasical posted:
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Apr 10, 2019 01:48
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Crasical posted:
you jerk i was drinking
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Apr 10, 2019 02:02
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Philosophically speaking, the Pure are OK with what Beshilu do right? Like they probably don't want them as neighbours at all, but "gnaw through the Gauntlet" and "reunite the human and spirit worlds back into Pangaea" seem like compatible goals.
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Apr 10, 2019 02:26
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pangaea was the central section of the venn diagram, blasting open the walls wont bring it back e: what is the area outside of the circles, in wolf cosmology, and what happens if it gets in Tollymain fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 02:41
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Tollymain posted:pangaea was the central section of the venn diagram, blasting open the walls wont bring it back I dunno, what are Wounds anyways?
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Apr 10, 2019 03:07
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Crasical posted:
That's perfect. bewilderment posted:Philosophically speaking, the Pure are OK with what Beshilu do right? Like they probably don't want them as neighbours at all, but "gnaw through the Gauntlet" and "reunite the human and spirit worlds back into Pangaea" seem like compatible goals. While they (for the most part) don't seem to be aware of the specifics of Pangaea, they are coherent enough to recognize that mixing the spirit with the flesh isn't it. It's the goal of extremists, notably among the Fire-Touched, who lean more towards wanting the Shadow to rule all things anyways (mostly because they tether themselves to that kind of totem). Things may have changed in second edition, and the Pure are expanded on in the upcoming Shunned by the Moon. Tollymain posted:pangaea was the central section of the venn diagram, blasting open the walls wont bring it back Like real life, space and its potential dangers. Luna protects most of the Earths Shadow from alien spirit-borne threats but a few manage workarounds, like idigam and Apollo. The far end of the Shadow is sometimes called the Deep Shadow, which may be synonymous with the Places-That-Aren't, reflections of places that don't exist in the real world. nofather fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 03:15
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Tollymain posted:maybe the more general concept of a community is more what im looking for Good question!
The tenor of the Freehold and City will, of course, create different setting.
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Apr 10, 2019 04:07
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I imagine a wildly successful Freehold more or less makes itself redundant. If you manage to police the hedge well enough and stop True Fae (and/or their minions) from abducting people, normal humans are going to see what, slightly fewer mysterious personality shifts in people who have been replaced by Fetches? And then a really successful Freehold might make the True Fae decide to go abduct mortals elsewhere, which would reduce the Changeling population enough to make the Freehold go extinct, which might bring the True Fae back... I mean realistically a mortal living in an area controlled by a well-but-not-perfectly run Freehold would what, hear a lot of stories that start to sound like creepy urban legends and then just stop being told? "Yo, remember last year where everyone was saying not to say your full name by that creepy intersection at 9th and Main? Whatever happened with that?" "I guess it turned out to be a hoax or whatever." Edit: This is ignoring the "sometimes Changelings act like / turn into the True Fae" but barring that (which realistically shouldn't be super common, what NPCs get to Wyrd 10?) Changelings just don't have many incentives to gently caress with mortal society. Individual Changelings have incentives to gently caress with individual mortals: their families, friends, rivals, whatever from before their durance, but I'm not sure Changelings as a social grouping really do much to mortals aside from minor manipulations to keep the Freehold running and minor protection as a result of being opposed to the True Fae. Digital Osmosis fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 04:43
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Don't Changelings need strong emotions to feed on? So they probably want to encourage relevant emotions in their sphere of operations. Whether that means inviting horror film festivals or making sure everyone hears weird stories about walking through the park at night, whatever gets the necessary fear pumping for Autumn Courtiers.
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Apr 10, 2019 05:05
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smaller chances of being dinner and a show
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Apr 10, 2019 06:44
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Digital Osmosis posted:I'm also not sure what thematics there could be for Beast, given that it's core message of "try and balance the person you were and the Beast you've become while dealing with the fact that in order to exist you have to destroy people" is uh, suspiciously well covered by either Vampire game
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Apr 10, 2019 13:46
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"A Beast I am, and it's awesome and you all love me for it, gently caress the haters".
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Apr 10, 2019 14:07
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Beast's original idea was the cycle of abuse. You can see shades of it in the game as it is now and the original preview doc. Beasts are abusive monsters whose actions produce heroes who are themselves unstable people who seek to repay that misery. In the original doc, where you were always a Beast, it's suggested this state likely provoked a lot of negativity and harshness for a Beast growing up. The way Heroes were supposed to be low-Integrity is another sign, implying their own natures as a result of things. It all falls apart if you look too closely at it; in the original doc, you're a Beast, an actual monster that wants to frighten people. In both iterations I don't think Heroes are implied to move on, find, and then abuse nascent Beasts either, but if they had then it almost might have worked with the second as the cruel and self-aggrandizing nature of what Heroes are supposed to be drove people to accept the bargain. But that's not what was done, and there's no consistency in their depiction. Then you've got their Poochie powers giving them great first impressions with everyone which muddies things further. Hell, at this point Changeling fits the idea better, because at least one of their endpoints is outright becoming a True Fae.
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Apr 10, 2019 15:45
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Ironslave posted:Beast's original idea was the cycle of abuse. You can see shades of it in the game as it is now and the original preview doc. I remember hearing once that originally they were going to be a mini-template that would go along with Contagion. But someone liked them so much they got promoted up to game-of-their-own.
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Apr 10, 2019 16:15
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Ironslave posted:Beast's original idea was the cycle of abuse. You can see shades of it in the game as it is now and the original preview doc. Beasts are abusive monsters whose actions produce heroes who are themselves unstable people who seek to repay that misery. In the original doc, where you were always a Beast, it's suggested this state likely provoked a lot of negativity and harshness for a Beast growing up. The way Heroes were supposed to be low-Integrity is another sign, implying their own natures as a result of things. The original game did have a gameplay loop. You exist, your existence makes heroes either because of your feeding, or your lack of feeding. You end up fighting those heroes which depletes your resources,or even worse, puts an anathema on you which forces you to go ravenous to remove and thus likely makes another hero. You were born this way and don't really have a choice in the matter, your existence warps reality around you and what are you going to do about that? So long as you keep it far, far, FAR away from minority metaphors it's a good loop. When you don't do that it turns it into alt-right propaganda.
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Apr 10, 2019 16:59
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nofather posted:I remember hearing once that originally they were going to be a mini-template that would go along with Contagion. But someone liked them so much they got promoted up to game-of-their-own. This is not true. Contagion wasn't a thing when Beast was being made - at the time, it was still The Crossover Chronicle, and Matt was still in charge of it. Beast's core concept was a Dragon game Matt pitched, that was expanded to have Dragons as just one of its splats when moved on.
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Apr 10, 2019 17:10
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So, how were dragons going to fit into the WoD as pitched? Not as what showed up, but what was the elevator pitch on that idea that got people excited? I've always wondered.
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Apr 10, 2019 17:16
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What is Wisdom like for the Seers? Mage 2E makes it clear that breaking points are somewhat subjective, but still a lot of them seem like things the Seers would be fine with. I mean, maybe taunting the abyss should be the same for them and Pentacle mages, but would a Seer really be weirded out by using magic to achieve mundane objectives, or manipulating a mortal with magic? And if the answer is "yes, because they're human, and the Seers on average have less wisdom than other mages" what do they do about all The Mad that their normal operating activities make?
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Apr 10, 2019 17:24
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The focus on lairs in Beast makes way more sense if they were originally dragons.Ironslave posted:Beast's original idea was the cycle of abuse. You can see shades of it in the game as it is now and the original preview doc. Beasts are abusive monsters whose actions produce heroes who are themselves unstable people who seek to repay that misery. In the original doc, where you were always a Beast, it's suggested this state likely provoked a lot of negativity and harshness for a Beast growing up. The way Heroes were supposed to be low-Integrity is another sign, implying their own natures as a result of things. This is really problematic, to say the least. The vast majority of victims of abuse don't go on to abuse others and the common belief that they do causes harm to them, similar to how the belief that mentally unwell people are dangerous causes harm to the innocent. Also, the cycle of abuse refers not to that idea, but to common cyclical patterns of behavior in an abusive relationship - the relationship worsens, things hit a breaking point, the abuser apologizes or makes excuses or whatever, time passes, repeat.
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Apr 10, 2019 17:26
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Dave Brookshaw posted:This is not true. Contagion wasn't a thing when Beast was being made - at the time, it was still The Crossover Chronicle, and Matt was still in charge of it. Thanks, though now I've lost the only interesting comment I have to throw at Beast conversations. And it wasn't that interesting in the first place. I guess dragons are cool. Digital Osmosis posted:What is Wisdom like for the Seers? Mage 2E makes it clear that breaking points are somewhat subjective, but still a lot of them seem like things the Seers would be fine with. I mean, maybe taunting the abyss should be the same for them and Pentacle mages, but would a Seer really be weirded out by using magic to achieve mundane objectives, or manipulating a mortal with magic? And if the answer is "yes, because they're human, and the Seers on average have less wisdom than other mages" what do they do about all The Mad that their normal operating activities make? Probably less Wisdom in general, but more inuring themselves (I think we've been told the Seers are sort of riddled with Scelesti). There's likely a lot of legacies, too, since you can use your attainments without fear of Wisdom loss, and having contacts among the Masters of Destruction and Princes of the Many Masks is probably something middling Seers drool and brag over like Patrick Bateman and his buddies do over business cards. Then of course you can just do things non-magically, all the extra Resources dots can be used to hire/bribe people to do things for you, and the assorted servitor monsters of the Seers, like the myrmidons and the grigori. Why use magic to enslave someone to do a menial task forever when you can just offer them a steady paycheck. nofather fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 17:28
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