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Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

orcane posted:

I don't think the console release of Handsome Collection started off with massive sales, so I doubt the cost difference was really significant if you waited for PC sales, but yeah it was sales prices vs. retail price and Handsome Collection on PS4/Xbone was cheaper overall. But the PC collection has had plenty of sales before, at similar prices to what I see during PSN sales.

I was speaking from personal experience, as someone with the handsome collection on PS4 (where it's been $20, when on sale, for years), wanting to buy the dlc I was missing on pc. It was much more expensive before the handsome collection finally came to pc and subsequently went on sale.

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Tinfoil Papercut
Jul 27, 2016

by Athanatos
Cryo was one of the things I liked about TPS so I'm fine with that.

So Slag has become Nuke, and it also does damage?

NofrikinfuN
Apr 23, 2009


Grimey Drawer
I'm fine with the concept of slag, I just hope they don't lock an entire difficulty by making it a required part of your build. I found slagging and switching weapons tedious, so I often used slag grenades, which I ran out of at crucial moments. It also used up the grenade slot, which was not ideal.

Risky Bisquick
Jan 18, 2008

PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.



Buglord
Cryo is a bit too strong, instead of outright freezing it should be a slowing effect like when your character is impacted by cryo.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


I liked slag, but then again I played Axton and had the turret upgrade that would apply it automatically so I didn't need to dedicate a gun to it.

Crabtree
Oct 17, 2012

ARRRGH! Get that wallet out!
Everybody: Lowtax in a Pickle!
Pickle! Pickle! Pickle! Pickle!

Dinosaur Gum
One of the DLC characters just has the ability to puke nuclear slag on enemies to render them weak to the damage over time and whatever else you apply to them.,

Risky Bisquick
Jan 18, 2008

PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.



Buglord
I wouldn't say it was slag, but a combination of their lazy game design with difficulty scaling and how they purposed slag to counteract the scaling using a damage multiplier. This bred the requirement to use slag or you simply couldn't advance. In TPS it's not like this at all and the scaling is toned down.

So Maya/Axton/Zer0 have a passive source for slag (phaselock/turret/kunai* chance of), and Krieg can skip it with some builds (Explosive/Melee) so that leaves Sal/Gaige out in the lurch. The other design decision is how you are more or less required to use a grog/rubi to attempt solo raid bosses or high OP levels. For instance, I could only get to OP5 as Axton without using a Rubi/Grog and even then afterwards the damage scaling after OP6 becomes absurd, you really need to refarm all the guns every 2 OP levels.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
Survivability is just a mess in general in BL2. BLPS is a little better but you're still facing a lot of situations where you're dead before you can react, as you go up TVHM/UVHM.

I think once every boss you design triggers the mechanic to prevent one-shot death, you need to reconsider things.

Rinkles
Oct 24, 2010

What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?
Is the turret a viable slag source, I thought the cool down would be too restrictive? I never managed to level axton much (just too boring, especially after so many other playthroughs) so I don't know how he plays at uvhm levels.

Arist
Feb 13, 2012

who, me?


I had my class mod slot dedicated to cooldown reduction and never played higher than TVHM. That said I still had a lot of trouble when the turret wasn't up, yeah.

e: also I loved axton because if you had the "speed increase on kill" skill maxed (plus a few more levels from a class mod for good measure) he could skate across the battlefield shotgunning dudes. It was great.

Arist fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Apr 17, 2019

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Rinkles posted:

Is the turret a viable slag source, I thought the cool down would be too restrictive? I never managed to level axton much (just too boring, especially after so many other playthroughs) so I don't know how he plays at uvhm levels.

Having the turret (without the slag talent) made using other slag weapons more effective and less obnoxious. I never played Axton to UVHM though.

Tinfoil Papercut
Jul 27, 2016

by Athanatos
Any element that makes them take increased damage will be mandatory at the highest levels. Slag or Nuke, it's going to run into the same problems of either being a dedicated gun or a mandatory build - both of which kinda suck.

A better idea would be to have each elemental effect do something unique which can compliment playstyles. Have shock stun them briefly for easier crits, corrosive slows them and applies a heavier DoT, fire applies a DoT that can spread or set off nearby barrels, cryo freezes them and grants a melee only follow-up bonus, etc.

NofrikinfuN
Apr 23, 2009


Grimey Drawer
Gaige's middle tree has Interspersed Outburst which has the super fun mechanic of not shooting for a few seconds to charge up a slag shot. It requires a pretty heavy investment in that tree, though.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

Tinfoil Papercut posted:

Any element that makes them take increased damage will be mandatory at the highest levels. Slag or Nuke, it's going to run into the same problems of either being a dedicated gun or a mandatory build - both of which kinda suck.

Not necessarily. There's always an opportunity cost for applying the debuff, so it comes down to whether applying it is going to be more efficient than simply pewpewing with whatever your non-nuke build is going to be.

eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy
games need to stop being lazy and making harder mode = enemies have more health is what it comes down to for me

don't even have a harder mode if thats all its going to be

Risky Bisquick
Jan 18, 2008

PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.



Buglord

Cease to Hope posted:

Survivability is just a mess in general in BL2. BLPS is a little better but you're still facing a lot of situations where you're dead before you can react, as you go up TVHM/UVHM.

I think once every boss you design triggers the mechanic to prevent one-shot death, you need to reconsider things.

It's not even bosses though, it's basically every enemy in UVHM at 72 let alone OP levels.

Rinkles posted:

Is the turret a viable slag source, I thought the cool down would be too restrictive? I never managed to level axton much (just too boring, especially after so many other playthroughs) so I don't know how he plays at uvhm levels.

Axton comes down to basically being pidgin holed into using the DPUH forever. You can use the flakker/swordsplosion/ogre/kerblaster, but you're entire gimmick is the DPUH. You can get a grenadier build using the kerblaster/sham/fastball, or even a tediore reload build (mostly raid bosses). The turret either becomes aggro pull or your kill engine while active (throw the turret far away in this case). With Gemini/longbow this isn't so bad, but that is a huge investment which restricts builds if you want explosions and gemini.

Axton is fun, but DPUH for 70+ levels is painful.

Dirt Road Junglist
Oct 8, 2010

We will be cruel
And through our cruelty
They will know who we are

eonwe posted:

games need to stop being lazy and making harder mode = enemies have more health is what it comes down to for me

don't even have a harder mode if thats all its going to be

Co-signed. If New Game+ isn't an actual + to enemy tactics/AI/density (or actual new content) and not just cranking up their HP, I usually won't bother.

Mr. Baps
Apr 16, 2008

Yo ho?

eonwe posted:

games need to stop being lazy and making harder mode = enemies have more health is what it comes down to for me

don't even have a harder mode if thats all its going to be

:yeah:

Kerrzhe
Nov 5, 2008

i only ever played Krieg and I had to use the DPUH while hiding behind a concrete barrier to kill that stupid fuckin robot dinosaur :argh:

watho
Aug 2, 2013


The real world will, again tomorrow, function and run without me.

Slag is awful horrible garbage because you either need to design everything around it which makes it mandatory which sucks, or you don’t design around it which makes it overpowered as hell which is boring and also sucks

e: the third hidden option is to add a mechanic where some enemies purge all slag every second which is too stupid to even consi- oh wait

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011

watho posted:

Slag is awful horrible garbage because you either need to design everything around it which makes it mandatory which sucks, or you don’t design around it which makes it overpowered as hell which is boring and also sucks

Slag is redeemable if it isn't the only way to do anything ever. You only have five weapons you can easily switch between on the fly, so needing to devote one of them to slagging on nearly every character in the game isn't fun. That doesn't mean a damage-increasing debuff is some squirrelly idea that can't be made interesting. It just needs to not be so overwhelming that it overshadows using more straightforward non-slag weapons, and ideally it would be more situational than applying slag then using literally any weapon on literally every enemy.

Dyz
Dec 10, 2010

Dirt Road Junglist posted:

Co-signed. If New Game+ isn't an actual + to enemy tactics/AI/density (or actual new content) and not just cranking up their HP, I usually won't bother.

Add more elite/badass enemies to encounters too, so you're facing tougher enemies but not bullet sponges.

Andrigaar
Dec 12, 2003
Saint of Killers

Dyz posted:

Add more elite/badass enemies to encounters too, so you're facing tougher enemies but not bullet sponges.

When I think of badass, chubby, etc., I think "bullet sponge that hits a bit harder."

Crabtree
Oct 17, 2012

ARRRGH! Get that wallet out!
Everybody: Lowtax in a Pickle!
Pickle! Pickle! Pickle! Pickle!

Dinosaur Gum
Redefine Badass to mean AI that actually knows how to hurt you bad and not numbers go up.

Relentless
Sep 22, 2007

It's a perfect day for some mayhem!


A little more HP is fine, but confine elemental weapons to badasses, and give them a higher bullet velocity, smarter about flanking and smarter about taking cover. Crank all that up as the difficulty goes higher. They don't even particularly need to do more damage if they're actually hitting you.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
It would be nice if enemy weapons had anything to do with the enemies themselves, and were identifiable at a distance.

Man every time I think about Borderlands there's another lovely design decision to annoy me.

Crabtree
Oct 17, 2012

ARRRGH! Get that wallet out!
Everybody: Lowtax in a Pickle!
Pickle! Pickle! Pickle! Pickle!

Dinosaur Gum
It is a game that entirety sold itself off of a design style that wasn't even theirs. After that first foot in the door they got by on flash and a few good jokes in between a stagnant kind of nice on paper, bad in execution designs.

Andrigaar
Dec 12, 2003
Saint of Killers
I'm not sure this franchise has ever had quality AI as part of it. It's sort of like Unreal (Or Halo with the floaty jumps actually) hastily duct taped on top of Diablo 2 and with just enough spray paint to hide the seams and make me addicted to it.

The ARPG aspects are the same reason you can try to do it underleveled in Nioh or just grind for loot and levels so you walk up and punch them in the face with the force of a thousand-thousand suns.

Mendrian
Jan 6, 2013

Dirt Road Junglist posted:

Co-signed. If New Game+ isn't an actual + to enemy tactics/AI/density (or actual new content) and not just cranking up their HP, I usually won't bother.

Honestly the BL games were always the most fun in situations where you were massively outnumbered and dodging from cover to cover trying to rapidly reduce enemy numbers. Density is the key to difficulty (I think) and enemies really just need enough health to not get instantly chumped, they don't need to be balanced around, "If you have X, Y, and Z damage boosters than this enemy basically has a 'normal' amount of health from your perspective."

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
It would be nice if explosions were a utility tool for dealing with packs of enemies and not just yellow-colored damage. Torgue weapons are satisfying and have a different play style than other weapons, which is good, but there isn't that much practical difference between a Ravager and a Oberkill/Bangstick other than aiming at different spots.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010
I understand people who thought it was ridiculous to just assume Randy was lying when he said Troy Baker turned the role down, but you have to understand the man is beyond self-parody at this point. https://www.onlysp.com/troy-baker-rhys-borderlands-3-randy-pitchford-exclusive-interview/

John Murdoch
May 19, 2009

I can tune a fish.

Mendrian posted:

Honestly the BL games were always the most fun in situations where you were massively outnumbered and dodging from cover to cover trying to rapidly reduce enemy numbers. Density is the key to difficulty (I think) and enemies really just need enough health to not get instantly chumped, they don't need to be balanced around, "If you have X, Y, and Z damage boosters than this enemy basically has a 'normal' amount of health from your perspective."

This is why the back third of BL1 was always so exciting to me. You get sent up against a group of enemies that are more tactically interesting than "bandit who shoots you" and "bandit who rushes in to melee you" and a lot of the maps force you to contend with them in more boxed-in spaces instead of big open arenas.

My only complaint with the Lance is that thanks to corrosive guns being completely broken in 1 if you find a good one around that point (which is pretty much exactly when they start dropping) then you can completely clown on them. To their credit, they somewhat fixed that problem with all of the new unit types in Knoxx. (Also while I'm complaining it's still incredibly dumb that one of the loading screen tips points out that alpha skags are weak to corrosive when 90% of the ones you're going to fight show up well before any corrosive weapons do.)

Your Brain on Hugs
Aug 20, 2006
A question for anyone who knows about BL2 modding: As I understand it, the community mod manager is still broken with the new update. I've figured out how to enable the console and use mods without it, but I don't know how to have multiple mods going or to change options that it says are tweakable with BLCMM. Do I just have to wait until they get it working again?

Crabtree
Oct 17, 2012

ARRRGH! Get that wallet out!
Everybody: Lowtax in a Pickle!
Pickle! Pickle! Pickle! Pickle!

Dinosaur Gum

Pirate Jet posted:

I understand people who thought it was ridiculous to just assume Randy was lying when he said Troy Baker turned the role down, but you have to understand the man is beyond self-parody at this point. https://www.onlysp.com/troy-baker-rhys-borderlands-3-randy-pitchford-exclusive-interview/

Again, the dude is a cheap rear end thief. Of course its likely him not wanting to shill out for a pro's price and pretending Troy was too busy/important for his game.

Tei
Feb 19, 2011

Randy, if you are reading this. Borderlands 3 is not a big microphone to be yourself. You are embarrasing your people, good professionals, cool artist, great people.

Take it down a notch, please.

The protagonist of the show is the game, not you.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.



Tei posted:

Randy, if you are reading this. Borderlands 3 is not a big microphone to be yourself. You are embarrasing your people, good professionals, cool artist, great people.

Take it down a notch, please.

The protagonist of the show is the game, not you.

But how does this post effect me? The protagonist of reality- Randy Pitchford.

The Shame Boy fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Apr 18, 2019

Megazver
Jan 13, 2006
Well, Ashly Burch is apparently back, so there's that at least.

Tinfoil Papercut
Jul 27, 2016

by Athanatos

Megazver posted:

Well, Ashly Burch is apparently back, so there's that at least.

Runnin' runnin' runnin, I'm runnin' over here



run run run run

Andrigaar
Dec 12, 2003
Saint of Killers
Finished TPS TVHM and all side-missions for the achievement, which included doing the raid boss 2-man for 25 or 40 minutes.

If you don't have someone to shoot the poo poo with, don't bother. Even then you shouldn't bother. Claptrap/Fragtrap is fun though and deserves to be a class again however.

:hfive:

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Megazver
Jan 13, 2006

Andrigaar posted:

If you don't have someone to shoot the poo poo with, don't bother. Even then you shouldn't bother.
:hfive:

Yeah, I've tried it with a friend I've beat all of BL2 with and after a few hours I just... didn't want to play it anymore.

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