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ADINSX
Sep 9, 2003

Wanna run with my crew huh? Rule cyberspace and crunch numbers like I do?

John Madden! John Madden!

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TheFluff
Dec 13, 2006

FRIENDS, LISTEN TO ME
I AM A SEAGULL
OF WEALTH AND TASTE
cross-posting from the c-spam thread (via forums poster gschmidl)

IFO Institute Center for Economic Studies posted:

ifo Schnelldienst: Electric Vehicles are not a Panacea for Climate Change
Apr 17, 2019

Electric vehicles will barely help cut CO2 emissions in Germany over the coming years, as the introduction of electric vehicles does not necessarily lead to a reduction in CO2 emissions from road traffic. Natural gas combustion engines are the ideal technology for transitioning to vehicles powered by hydrogen or “green” methane in the long term.

Considering Germany’s current energy mix and the amount of energy used in battery production, the CO2 emissions of battery-electric vehicles are, in the best case, slightly higher than those of a diesel engine, and are otherwise much higher. This has been confirmed by a new study by Christoph Buchal, professor of physics at the University of Cologne; Hans-Dieter Karl, long-standing ifo energy expert; and Hans-Werner Sinn, former ifo president and professor emeritus at Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München. The researchers carried out their detailed calculations using the concrete examples of a modern electric car and a modern diesel vehicle. In addition to CO2 emissions from battery production, they looked at alternative energy sources for electricity in order to calculate the impact electric vehicles have on CO2 emissions. They show that even with today’s technology, total emissions from a combustion engine powered by natural gas are already almost one-third lower than those of a diesel engine. “Over the long term, hydrogen-methane technology offers a further advantage: it allows surplus wind and solar power generated during peaks to be stored, and these surpluses will see a sharp increase as the share of this renewable energy grows,” Professor Buchal explains.

In their study, the authors criticize the fact that EU legislation allows electric vehicles to be included in calculations for fleet emissions with a value of “zero” CO2 emissions, as this suggests that electric vehicles do not generate any such emissions. The reality is that, in addition to the CO2 emissions generated in the production of electric vehicles, almost all EU countries generate significant CO2 emissions from charging the vehicles’ batteries using their national energy production mixes. The authors also take a critical view of the discussion about electric cars in Germany, which centers around battery-operated vehicles when other technologies also offer great potential: hydrogen-powered electric vehicles or vehicles with combustion engines powered by green methane, for instance. “Methane technology is ideal for the transition from natural gas vehicles with conventional engines to engines that will one day run on methane from CO2-free energy sources. This being the case, the German federal government should treat all technologies equally and promote hydrogen and methane solutions as well,” emphasizes Professor Sinn.

Full study (PDF, in German)

e: my German is pretty terrible but as far as I can tell from skimming the PDF, this result is in large part because 52% of the the German electrical power generation is fossil in origin. 22.7% comes from lignite which is particularly terrible as far as CO2 emissions go.

TheFluff fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Apr 22, 2019

Munkeymon
Aug 14, 2003

Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.



TheFluff posted:

cross-posting from the c-spam thread (via forums poster gschmidl)


Full study (PDF, in German)

e: my German is pretty terrible but as far as I can tell from skimming the PDF, this result is in large part because 52% of the the German electrical power generation is fossil in origin. 22.7% comes from lignite which is particularly terrible as far as CO2 emissions go.

hasn't Germany been building new coal plants in order to get off of nuclear power?

Roosevelt
Jul 18, 2009

I'm looking for the man who shot my paw.

TheFluff posted:

cross-posting from the c-spam thread (via forums poster gschmidl)


Full study (PDF, in German)

e: my German is pretty terrible but as far as I can tell from skimming the PDF, this result is in large part because 52% of the the German electrical power generation is fossil in origin. 22.7% comes from lignite which is particularly terrible as far as CO2 emissions go.

lignite balls

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012

BREADS
Pay out the arse for more nuclear power from France. :france:

ArmedZombie
Jun 6, 2004

TheFluff posted:

cross-posting from the c-spam thread (via forums poster gschmidl)


Full study (PDF, in German)

e: my German is pretty terrible but as far as I can tell from skimming the PDF, this result is in large part because 52% of the the German electrical power generation is fossil in origin. 22.7% comes from lignite which is particularly terrible as far as CO2 emissions go.

they will or have shutdown all their nukes also, I think they are trying to do more solar in the future though.

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003



President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)
where does sheldon go?

gschmidl
Sep 3, 2011

watch with knife hands

President Beep posted:

where does sheldon go?

On his bazinga.

Plank Walker
Aug 11, 2005

President Beep posted:

where does sheldon go?

idgi that is sheldon, under all the tattoos

graph
Nov 22, 2006

aaag peanuts

Captain Foo posted:

theranos on wheels lmao

graph
Nov 22, 2006

aaag peanuts

Beamed posted:

17776 was really good

its a masterpiece

Moist von Lipwig
Oct 28, 2006

by FactsAreUseless
Tortured By Flan

Munkeymon posted:

hasn't Germany been building new coal plants in order to get off of nuclear power?

Yeah they used Fukushima as the excuse they've wanted for a long time to shut down their nuclear and switch to lignite because Germany

MomJeans420
Mar 19, 2007



Their innate desire to kill people with their emissions

Combat Theory
Jul 16, 2017

ArmZ posted:

they will or have shutdown all their nukes also, I think they are trying to do more solar in the future though.

We are on our way of shutting down the last ones since they have scale down contracts for the newest ones in order to get the older reactors of the grid faster.

We also set up a plan to completely drop lignite by 2040 or 2035 don't remember exactly.

The study is good I know some of the names involved personally although they have been getting flak for being all too public about how electric cars aren't that cool for the environment.

The short and long term advice of a transition to CNG and ultimately regenerative methane is spot on, especially because we can synthesize it in bio reactors from waste co2 in large scale and will have a ton of Free available energy due to cyclic depence of regenerative power (wind and solar in our case)

The methane power accumulation cycle in regenerative grids is what practically everyone here waits for apart from the government that'll need another legislation period to understand what that even is and why we need it and why it invalidates BEVs for everything but urban applications, but as usual the clocks in regenerative energy tick rather slowly.

Also lol at complaining about planned obsolescence in a thread about modern, let alone electric automobiles.

If you hate the thought of planned obsolescence don't buy a car from this decade apart from maybe a Lada niva and that really stretches "this decade"

Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Apr 22, 2019

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003



elon apparently was making GBS threads on lidar in his talk today

https://twitter.com/PlugInFUD/status/1120414305030164481

gschmidl
Sep 3, 2011

watch with knife hands

https://twitter.com/MSelander/status/1120415079026122752

And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bus.

Combat Theory
Jul 16, 2017

No affordable Camera in the world remotely comes close to the performance of the human eye

Tesla: Roads are made for human eyes so camera is best.

mystes
May 31, 2006

Endless Mike posted:

elon apparently was making GBS threads on lidar in his talk today

https://twitter.com/PlugInFUD/status/1120414305030164481
Of course he's making GBS threads on lidar. Tesla has put all this effort into developing crappy semi-self-driving cars that don't use lidar, but probably what's actually going to happen is that cheap solid state lidar modules will become available and it will make all of Tesla's work useless.

Luigi Thirty
Apr 30, 2006

Emergency confection port.

https://twitter.com/sokane1/status/1120417817118035969

Just-In-Timeberlake
Aug 18, 2003

it's ok though because a fender bender is enough for insurance to total the vehicle

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

nobody cares


Moist von Lipwig posted:

Yeah they used Fukushima as the excuse they've wanted for a long time to shut down their nuclear and switch to lignite because Germany

Does Germany have education problems too

Celexi
Nov 25, 2006

Slava Ukraini!
The lack of education on nuclear energy and scaremongering left over from the 80's that parents reinforce is a problem in most of western world.

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

the lidar thing reminds me of around the time of the playstation 3 launch, when a bunch of sony execs did interviews where they shat repeatedly on how nobody cares whether a game controller has rumble or not. this was of course completely unrelated to an ongoing lawsuit about controller patents and they definitely didn't release a rumble controller right after the lawsuit was wrapped up :rolleyes:

Combat Theory
Jul 16, 2017

Potato Salad posted:

Does Germany have education problems too

its a 50/50 pick. I am very much pro Nuclear energy but i would not want it in corporate hands here and the government was so busy privatizing the poo poo out of this country ill be dead of old age 3 times before nationalization of Power Generation even becomes a cohesive sentence again.

Does have its upsides though as i said before we signed the plans to drop lignite completely within 15 years or so which is about as much as one can realistically ask from this lubed up turbo production country.

fishmech
Jul 16, 2006

by VideoGames
Salad Prong

Celexi posted:

The lack of education on nuclear energy and scaremongering left over from the 80's that parents reinforce is a problem in most of western world.

dont forget that it's massively profitable for fossil fuel interests if nuclear is shut down lol


Combat Theory posted:

its a 50/50 pick. I am very much pro Nuclear energy but i would not want it in corporate hands here and the government was so busy privatizing the poo poo out of this country ill be dead of old age 3 times before nationalization of Power Generation even becomes a cohesive sentence again.

america of all places, has never managed to kill anyone with a nuclear power plant failure in like 50 years of commercial operation

surely germans are not less competent than that?

gschmidl
Sep 3, 2011

watch with knife hands

fishmech posted:

surely germans are not less competent than that?

Chernobyl. The potential of Temelin. Fukushima.

Stymie
Jan 9, 2001

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
the main problem with nuclear power, as it's always been, is that even minor mishaps can have effects that are problems for several thousand years, let along massive meltdowns that basically mean you have to be okay with entire regions of your country becoming uninhabitable

and that's when things go wrong, when things go right you still have the issue of what will you do with the byproducts that could do precisely the same thing if stored improperly, or even properly

Combat Theory
Jul 16, 2017

fishmech posted:

dont forget that it's massively profitable for fossil fuel interests if nuclear is shut down lol


Not really its run by the same companies here and they obviously opposed the Nuclear ban. it was a post fukushima publicity gag really and to appease the Greens which left the car industry alone afterwards

fishmech posted:


america of all places, has never managed to kill anyone with a nuclear power plant failure in like 50 years of commercial operation

surely germans are not less competent than that?

Nuclear Power is something that doesnt belong in the private hand simply. When Safety so directly opposes Profit its just not sensible. America has emitted enough radioactivity from its commercial Power plants to kill thousands of people and Luck is no real justification for continous operation.

President Beep
Apr 30, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)

Combat Theory posted:

No affordable Camera in the world remotely comes close to the performance of the human eye

Tesla: Roads are made for human eyes so camera is best.

BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles

Combat Theory posted:

its a 50/50 pick. I am very much pro Nuclear energy but i would not want it in corporate hands here and the government was so busy privatizing the poo poo out of this country ill be dead of old age 3 times before nationalization of Power Generation even becomes a cohesive sentence again.

Does have its upsides though as i said before we signed the plans to drop lignite completely within 15 years or so which is about as much as one can realistically ask from this lubed up turbo production country.

I will never trust the country that birthed ABB for competent nuclear power generation

Shifty Pony
Dec 28, 2004

Up ta somethin'


fishmech posted:

america of all places, has never managed to kill anyone with a nuclear power plant failure in like 50 years of commercial operation

surely germans are not less competent than that?

my experience with German engineering makes me think they would do a fantastic job at building a reactor which extracted 80% more energy and improved the responsiveness to load changes but which would be out of commission in 10 years due to a needlessly esoteric part which was used in place of a bolt somehow breaking and requiring full disassembly to replace.

if Tesla built a nuclear reactor it would fry every electrical device on the grid due to its poorly trained AI determining that voltage sags below 120V at consumer outlets could be eliminated by quadrupling the line voltage.

Celexi
Nov 25, 2006

Slava Ukraini!

gschmidl posted:

Fukushima.

A single person died from fukushima.

quote:


That is prompting a shocking reassessment among some scholars: that the evacuation was an error. The human cost would have been far smaller had people stayed where they were, they argue. The wider death toll from the quake was 15,895, according to the National Police Agency.
Zero evacuation may be implausible. At the height of the crisis there were fears of much worse contamination. The question is rather whether people should have been kept away for weeks, not years. “With hindsight, we can say the evacuation was a mistake,” says Philip Thomas, a professor of risk management at the University of Bristol and leader of a recent research project on nuclear accidents. “We would have recommended that nobody be evacuated

crazy eyes mustafa
Nov 30, 2014

Celexi posted:

The lack of education on nuclear energy and scaremongering left over from the 80's that parents reinforce is a problem in most of western world.

goddamn fukushima, perpetuating ignorance about the (false and not at all real) dangers of nuclear power

crazy eyes mustafa
Nov 30, 2014
just one tiny insignificant level 7 radiation leak, that’s all (no, there is no level 8)

Happy Thread
Jul 10, 2005

by Fluffdaddy
Plaster Town Cop
I heard Fukushima used old outdated poo poo that we know much better ways for now and would never do again. Decades of technological changes

Celexi
Nov 25, 2006

Slava Ukraini!

crazy eyes mustafa posted:

goddamn fukushima, perpetuating ignorance about the (false and not at all real) dangers of nuclear power

As I posted before, a single person died from fukushima radiation, all others have been cases of thyroid cancer and all have been cured.

crazy eyes mustafa
Nov 30, 2014
just use the Pacific Ocean to open cycle cool the thing like mayak, another famous non event

not like the oceans aren’t big enough to soak up and dilute all the contamination, jeez

fuckin radiation is good for you

Celexi
Nov 25, 2006

Slava Ukraini!

crazy eyes mustafa posted:

just one tiny insignificant level 7 radiation leak, that’s all (no, there is no level 8)

Yes it is insignificant that a single person died, compared to how many die operating coal plants or from the effects of dirty energy.

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BangersInMyKnickers
Nov 3, 2004

I have a thing for courageous dongles

lets build our plant in this cove that will funnel sea water directly at the reactors in the event of a tsunami which never occurs in japan. what's that? our backup generators are also placed in that same location instead of further up the hill where there is zero chance of them getting flooded out? Perfect.

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