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Notahippie posted:You think so? I always read their relationship as a near-perfect intellectual connection that Diana just wasn't interested in turning into a romantic relationship. They obviously get a lot of pleasure out of talking with each other, and they frequently communicate in subtext in a way that Sophie and Jack never would. There's actually a few fairly strong -- subtle, but present -- implications in the early books that Diana and Stephen's relationship is . . .consummated . . . before Jack gets involved. She invites him to her bedroom, etc. It's just that Jack is a potential husband catch and Maturin isn't.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:32
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It's been so long since Post Captain I'd forgotten a lot of that drama, but Stephen's "come below, brother" was such a good way to end it.
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Apr 24, 2019 19:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's actually a few fairly strong -- subtle, but present -- implications in the early books that Diana and Stephen's relationship is . . .consummated . . . before Jack gets involved. She invites him to her bedroom, etc. It's just that Jack is a potential husband catch and Maturin isn't. That's true - there's the scene where she invites him to sit next to her while she's in bed so they can "talk" and suggests that it's not the first time - but I don't know if I attach much meaning to that in the sense of her actually being romantically interested in Stephen but forcing herself to go after other better potential husbands. I always read that as more a demonstration of her libertine attitudes, since she never seemed to attach much significance to sex. She never seemed all that reluctant to leave him in favor of better prospects no matter what they got up to, but at the same time they definitely seem to connect intellectually.
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Apr 24, 2019 20:02
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It probably doesn't make a very good story if the main characters have romantic relationships with zero problems. If you look to some of the secondary characters, I seem to recall that you will find happier relationships, though that could also be that the troubles are simply not discussed. Here I'm thinking of a few lieutenants, the master, etc. I haven't read any of the other authors under discussion. I do have one historical fiction where it's fairly clear that the author read a bunch of O'Brian, so the book contains the relevant nautical and naval details, but many of the cultural and political aspects that we find Aubrey/Maturin trapped within are left out (in the case to focus on a different topic, but for those other authors my guess would be that we now have different genres for that, either mystery or suspense or true histories). I'm not really in a position to make much of a literary statement nor contrast action series' accuracy with a historical fiction romance novel so yeah. Laugh it up fuzzball. Next post.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:52
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The first secondary relationships I can recall are the guy that wanted to buy a slave to marry and the guy that wanted to be castrated because his wife wouldn't sleep with him. Maybe not too many amazing relationships there either.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:16
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I don't think Stephen ever quite understands Diana, like a naturalist doesn't exactly understand a wild animal, though he may want to admire it, keep it, and put his name on it. When it comes to who did what with whom, I wonder if Sophia ever did her revenge-affair on Jack and had like the first orgasm of her life.
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Apr 25, 2019 07:05
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Killick's purchased wife turned out a-okay. No issues there. No sir!
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Apr 25, 2019 10:50
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Molybdenum posted:Killick's purchased wife turned out a-okay. No issues there. No sir! Perfectly legal too! Laid down the pewter in sight of one and all and shook hands on it before being given the halter!
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Apr 25, 2019 11:44
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Sax Solo posted:I don't think Stephen ever quite understands Diana, like a naturalist doesn't exactly understand a wild animal, though he may want to admire it, keep it, and put his name on it. Wasn’t there a local squire that Diana and maybe someone else introduced her to? I could have sworn it’s implied that she figures things out with him. uPen posted:The first secondary relationships I can recall are the guy that wanted to buy a slave to marry and the guy that wanted to be castrated because his wife wouldn't sleep with him. Maybe not too many amazing relationships there either. Sounds like someone is forgetting Babbington and Mrs. Wray and Pullings and Mrs. Pullings.
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Apr 25, 2019 14:17
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some young lieutenant iirc
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Apr 26, 2019 22:47
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builds character posted:Wasn’t there a local squire that Diana and maybe someone else introduced her to? I could have sworn it’s implied that she figures things out with him. I think Clarissa is part of that as well.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's actually a few fairly strong -- subtle, but present -- implications in the early books that Diana and Stephen's relationship is . . .consummated . . . before Jack gets involved. She invites him to her bedroom, etc. It's just that Jack is a potential husband catch and Maturin isn't. Women regularly entertained people and whole soirées in their bedrooms in the Regency era. A woman's bedroom was very much a private social room for her too, without any sexual overtones. Calling it a room is pretty wrong in the first place, because in the strata Diana moves in it's usually really a whole suit of rooms. I think that's reading too much into it, extrapolating a sexual relationship out of Stephen being invited into her bedroom.
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Apr 27, 2019 11:27
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builds character posted:Wasn’t there a local squire that Diana and maybe someone else introduced her to? I could have sworn it’s implied that she figures things out with him. Captain Apollo lol; he gave a splendid ball you know: TYA; Diana talking to a probably very uncomfortable-looking Stephen posted:'... Then I said, but in a tone I thought she would understand, that what she most urgently needed was a really kind, gentle and considerate lover to put her in tune and show her what all the talk and poetry and music and fine clothes were really about, and how it justified them all. A man like Captain Adeane, who danced with her at all the last Dorchester assemblies and who was so discreetly particular. Do you know him, my dear?’
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Apr 27, 2019 14:00
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You can always tell when Stephen wants to get to some stabbin'
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May 20, 2019 17:16
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Class Warcraft posted:I actually really like the books where Jack and Stephen leave the navy and outfit their own ship(s) - it was an interesting new dynamic. The books are good but the background grieving and sense of surrealism in Aubrey gives this part of the canon a sombre tone. The only uplifting portions are when Jack is received with dignity by Royal Navy captains who refuse to consider his removal from the list. I also think O Brian was consistently and deliberately obscure about Diana and Stephen's relationship and whatever it consisted of in the early novels. He wrote their friendship and Stephen's pining to be both significant and unique but without frustrating the reader, as Diana is simply too beloved, at least, by Stephen to be scorned or disliked for her lack of loyalty and her impulsivity. O'Brian also omits how despised she would have been in British society for sleeping with wealthy traders and a Jewish man, and so on. The fact that Stephen couldn't care less is reflective of how denigrated he was by the same people for being a bastard and what was at the time a despised minority. And clearly O'Brian loved the character of Diana. e: I forgot to mention the instance where Stephen and Diana get married onboard a RN ship and everyone is embarrassed because they are going at it, afterwards, "hammers and tongs" iirc and it turns out they are arguing and not having loud intercourse. It's hilarious and clearly a play on the deliberate obscurity O'Brian conceals about their sex life Heliogabalos fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 18:01
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I love the dramatic confrontation between Diana and Jack in one of the early novels where the crescendo is Diana calling him a scrub
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Jun 17, 2019 18:18
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I read this series (except the unfinished one) a couple of years ago and I'm starting a re-read of it now. It's such an odd body of work. The writing can be (and usually is) excellent, but the author's willingness to have so many major plot points settled by deus ex machina (usually happening outside the observation of any of the characters) is just bizarre. I guess it's realistic but it flies in the face of what I consider the basic rules of writing.
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Jun 20, 2019 23:40
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Kylaer posted:I read this series (except the unfinished one) a couple of years ago and I'm starting a re-read of it now. It's such an odd body of work. The writing can be (and usually is) excellent, but the author's willingness to have so many major plot points settled by deus ex machina (usually happening outside the observation of any of the characters) is just bizarre. I guess it's realistic but it flies in the face of what I consider the basic rules of writing. I thought it was odd at first too, especially on my first run through the books, but in the end its one of the things that makes the series seem so authentic. Jack gets to be the hero often enough, but so many things happen that are out of his control, it makes him come across less like a naval hero protagonist than an actual 1800s naval captain living through his life and getting buffeted by forces larger than him. Ships are going to be smashed by storms instead of direct battle, admirals are going to come and take over at the last minute, and the secret services are going to do their own thing behind the scenes where Jack and Stephen would never naturally intersect. Which particular bits were you thinking of when you said "bizarre", out of curiosity?
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Jun 21, 2019 01:06
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Agree, I always thought it was pretty cool and subversive of expectations how JA is just a bystander to some important battles b/c it feels more like someone’s actual life instead of a Hollywood movie.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:33
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O'Brian is also playing a kind of game with the reader. First person omniscient means sometimes the pov characters miss things. You get the story; you have to figure out the plot.
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Jun 21, 2019 01:37
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I wouldn't like it if the narrative was too neat and tidy; it really does help the feeling of verisimilitude. That said, it does acquire an edge of laziness in later books and fast-forwarding through sea battles (like with the Xebec full of gold in one of the last few books, iirc) is sad.
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Jun 21, 2019 05:46
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I'd got so used to O'Brian's elliptical style of writing that when the audio version of The Mauritius Command I was listening to skipped over the climactic battle, I didn't notice for ages.
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Jun 21, 2019 10:27
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Yeah I also think it’s too bad O’Brien didn’t spend a little more ink on the battles in the later books because he can write one hell of a sea battle when he wants to. The Waakzaamheid chase and battle stands out in my mind as one of the best “fight scenes” I’ve ever read and O’Brien apparently invented that one whole cloth so it’s not like he couldn’t cook up an interesting blow by blow on his own initiative.
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Jun 21, 2019 20:24
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Phenotype posted:
Diana and Mrs. Williams and several other characters IIRC dying in a coach accident. It was the most glaring example by far, O'Brien seemed like he just got tired of them and wanted those plot threads cut as expeditiously as positive.
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Jun 23, 2019 04:41
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O'Brian's wife died while he was writing that book.
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Jun 23, 2019 04:54
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Lawdog69 posted:Yeah I also think it’s too bad O’Brien didn’t spend a little more ink on the battles in the later books because he can write one hell of a sea battle when he wants to. The Waakzaamheid chase and battle stands out in my mind as one of the best “fight scenes” I’ve ever read and O’Brien apparently invented that one whole cloth so it’s not like he couldn’t cook up an interesting blow by blow on his own initiative. Jack's elation turning to horror as the ship broaches to and disappears into the wave gives me goosebumps every time I think about it. My god. Oh, my god. Six hundred men.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:08
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I was in Baltimore recently and managed to do an early-morning scout through the U.S. S. Constellation and took a bunch of photos. They might be of interest to those in this thread: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dqBrGRFxSjrcTkP78
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Jul 31, 2019 02:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I was in Baltimore recently and managed to do an early-morning scout through the U.S. S. Constellation and took a bunch of photos. They might be of interest to those in this thread: Great pictures! Is that the captain’s dining cabin near the end? Did anything of particular stand out or surprise you?
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Jul 31, 2019 03:18
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PlushCow posted:Great pictures! Is that the captain’s dining cabin near the end? Did anything of particular stand out or surprise you? There were some really neat differences pointed out between how American ships ran things and how the British did, but most of them are slipping my mind right now. One thing in particular that the various text blocks pointed out was that the Navy at that point was far more racially integrated than the Army was. The highlight though was probably talking to one of the people working on repairing the ship. It's basically a full time job for two people just maintaining the ship, even using power tools -- sanding away and cutting out and replacing rotted parts, etc. edit: and yeah that's the captain's cabin at the end, it's the only like actual room on the whole ship. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Jul 31, 2019 |
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Jul 31, 2019 03:39
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That's beautiful, I wonder if the canvas like that on deck is what "rigged for church" looks like? I feel POB would be disappointed in the stern windows, no curving sweep of glowing light.
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Jul 31, 2019 04:04
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I know that they ran crack frigates and painted and polished, but I can't look at those pictures without laughing and thinking how much dirt and grime and sea water and lamp smoke and fumes and run-on sentences and darkness would exist in Jack's day. Load those decks with supplies and tools and sheeting, grating, coils of rope, and things would start to look a lot less inviting. I love the dark and cold but  I would probably have a mental break stuck that close to so many people. They would throw me over with Hollum, unless they put me on the Stately or something.
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Jul 31, 2019 04:14
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There were good reasons to issue all that rum back then. The shocking thing (to me, at least) is that conditions on ship were actually healthier than what your average newly-pressed landsman had been used to.
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Aug 1, 2019 13:31
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Here's a Twitter thread on the Battle of the Nile, which started today and which led to Jack making commander: https://twitter.com/kateejamieson/status/1156868081706315776
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Aug 1, 2019 13:45
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jerman999 posted:Here's a Twitter thread on the Battle of the Nile, which started today and which led to Jack making commander: https://twitter.com/kateejamieson/status/1156868081706315776 That whole twitter account is chock full o neat history, thanks in return, I offer https://twitter.com/NavalAuthor/status/1156613476296642565 Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 14:36
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I'm so happy I discovered this thread thanks to Hieronymous Alloy's wonderful nautical interior decorating pics. I'd had a pretty serious obsession/interest in the Napoleonic wars since reading David G Chandler's masterful and eminently readable "The Campaigns of Napoleon" (seriously read it-he writes beautiful prose and captures the way Boney inspired his soldiers really well. I've gotten choked up over some of his descriptions of soldiers on campaign) in high school and then first read the Aubrey/Maturin books in college. Thanks to Killick, I discovered a bottle of madeira was $15 at the wine store and never went bad and was just nice to keep around and I haven't broken that habit yet. I've since listened to them a few times-the Patrick Tull audiobooks are fantastic, and I think he gets Dr. Maturin so, so right. It's been a wave of nostalgia reading the first few pages of this thread. As so many have said, I feel like Aubrey and Maturin are old friends I just haven't seen in a while, and I think I need to reconnect with them. I'd forgotten about Flashman too-he's just so awful he's wonderful.
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Aug 2, 2019 02:27
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jerman999 posted:Here's a Twitter thread on the Battle of the Nile, which started today and which led to Jack making commander: https://twitter.com/kateejamieson/status/1156868081706315776 The first time that he (Lord Nelson) spoke to me... I shall never forget his words. I remember it like it was yesterday. He leaned across the table, he looked me straight in the eye, and he said "Aubrey... may I trouble you for the salt?
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Aug 2, 2019 04:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I was in Baltimore recently and managed to do an early-morning scout through the U.S. S. Constellation and took a bunch of photos. They might be of interest to those in this thread: Wonderful, thank you for this! PhantomOfTheCopier posted:I know that they ran crack frigates and painted and polished, but I can't look at those pictures without laughing and thinking how much dirt and grime and sea water and lamp smoke and fumes and run-on sentences and darkness would exist in Jack's day. Load those decks with supplies and tools and sheeting, grating, coils of rope, and things would start to look a lot less inviting. I suspect that's the big reason for the aggressive cleaning/scrubbing/polishing at all times (even in the modern navy) - get at all behind and the barky rapidly turns into a festering stinkhole, and unsafe in a fight to boot. So I'm now two thirds of the way through The Commodore and very impressed by Jack's about-face on the subject of slavery - from noncommittal but in general agreement with his cherished Nelson that it is in some way necessary for the survival of the Navy, to, when he sees the typical conditions endured on a captured slave ship, lashing the slavers to the masts of their vessel and methodically blasting it to smithereens in Freetown harbour for all to watch. Way to loving go, Jack. Phy fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Aug 11, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 01:43
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I think that was just a rumor that the squadron spread through the town on purpose -- the actual offenders had been dealt with in a more normal way.
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Aug 11, 2019 02:07
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I reread the passage and it mentions several people having seen that, though with O'Brian's characteristic opacity it certainly could just be rumor running through the crowd.
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Aug 11, 2019 07:15
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Haha, I am 99.99% that's gently poking fun at the spread of rumour and the willingness of the townsfolk to believe the worst. Sort of a theme in several of the books, rumours run fast and are readily believed. Other examples would be Maturin spoken of as 'Attila come again' after getting into that brawl/duel in Australia, or being represented after a gentle reproof from Jack as 'having his pudding taken away and eaten in front of his eyes, as punishment for taking satiric'.
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Aug 11, 2019 14:42
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