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Honestly that guy getting killed by Godzilla was an act of redemption on his part. he knew he hosed up and he knew he was part of the problem. That's why he made no effort to run away. Let Godzilla cleanse the sins of Japan away in nuclear flame and all that.
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May 3, 2019 16:53
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That isn't how I read that at all.
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May 3, 2019 16:56
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Tezcatlipoca posted:That isn't how I read that at all. 
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May 3, 2019 17:02
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I think I've only seen five Godzilla movies, so... Shin, GMK, Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla, Tokyo SOS... Erm...maybe the entire anime trilogy could count as one, if you cut out the boring bits and only focus on the twenty minutes of kaiju...?
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May 3, 2019 18:51
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Failson posted:Did any of the other Heisei movies have such overtly political subplots? I can't think of any. The two preceding ones did. GvKG is a pretty startling escalation for sure, but that's why it's probably the best Heisei film.
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May 3, 2019 19:43
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Vinylshadow posted:I think I've only seen five Godzilla movies, so... Tbh I found even parts of that boring, like the reveal of the big Godzilla was cool but the end fight with gidorah was honestly kind of lame
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May 3, 2019 19:58
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K. Waste posted:Well, yeah, the part of the movie where Emmy discovers that she loves nationalism is just one avenue of the overall narrative. The other one is of Godzilla itself, who stands in for the actual enemy of the human characters: Not somebody who is coded as a Western imperialist or whatever, but in fact this liminal creature that is both indigenous and foreign, a unique product of post-war imperialism while also essentially bound up in Japanese national and cultural identity, who can't possibly fit into a paradigmatic opposition between nationalist bromides and some insidious super-power, and because of that poses the most distinct existential threat. Sure, it hates Ghidorah and the Futurians, but it also hates you. It blames you for its current condition. And it turns out that this hatred is completely justified. You wouldn't have been able to fend off the Futurians and Ghidorah without Godzilla as a cudgel - but, oh, now suddenly it turns out Godzilla is the problem, so you're going to bring Ghidorah back to kill Godzilla. Is this something where the sub and dub (or different sets of subs) differ? The movie I watched was fairly explicit that Japan doesn't actually get destroyed, in fact becomes even more prosperous than before to the extent of outright owning South America and Africa, and that the Futurians made up a whole bunch of bullshit because they're part of a combined American/Russian/Chinese conspiracy to destroy Japanese sovereignty. Which is... both not what you said and  as hell
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May 3, 2019 20:03
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Is this something where the sub and dub (or different sets of subs) differ? The movie I watched was fairly explicit that Japan doesn't actually get destroyed, in fact becomes even more prosperous than before to the extent of outright owning South America and Africa, and that the Futurians made up a whole bunch of bullshit because they're part of a combined American/Russian/Chinese conspiracy to destroy Japanese sovereignty. The way that seems to work is, that's the initial future that the future people arrive to stop. They replace Godzilla with King Ghidorah, and in response the Japanese try to re-create Godzilla using a nuclear sub owned by a private company (the one that's presumably driven Japan's insane growth.) However, Godzilla already exists because there's still nuclear material everywhere, he destroys the sub, and rises from the sea twice as big as he was before. This overgrown Godzilla lays waste to Japan until Emmy arrives with Mecha King Ghidorah. The idea is, Japan's the author of its own collapse- the big parallel I take from the scene at the window is that the Godzillasaurus is like Japan, at first wounded and barely alive, but now overgrown and dangerous and needing to be stopped. The future people are the bad guys, but it turns out Japan didn't need their help. The film does not portray Japan becoming a world empire as a good thing.
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May 3, 2019 20:28
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mandatory lesbian posted:Tbh I found even parts of that boring, like the reveal of the big Godzilla was cool but the end fight with gidorah was honestly kind of lame I liked the idea of an extradimensional kaiju whose anchor was a flesh-and-blood being The problem was the execution
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May 3, 2019 20:40
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I officially have the day off on the 30th. Now, open the advance tickets. Stop having them be closed.
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May 3, 2019 21:14
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Oh wow, one of the latest TV spots has what seems like a really big spoiler if you watch closely. I'm kind of amazed they put that in a commercial.
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May 3, 2019 21:35
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mandatory lesbian posted:Tbh I found even parts of that boring, like the reveal of the big Godzilla was cool but the end fight with gidorah was honestly kind of lame The end fight STARTED good, Ghidorah had great build up And then he bit Godzilla and the movie was basically over only it kept going for twenty minutes. Also, that is the biggest thing to take away with Godzilla VS Ghidorah The final fight with Emmi coming back isn't to make sure Japan becomes a super giant that takes over the world. It's just to let them moderate themselves and keep from either becoming The Bad Guys, or destroying themselves in the process.
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May 3, 2019 21:51
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:Is this something where the sub and dub (or different sets of subs) differ? The movie I watched was fairly explicit that Japan doesn't actually get destroyed, in fact becomes even more prosperous than before to the extent of outright owning South America and Africa, and that the Futurians made up a whole bunch of bullshit because they're part of a combined American/Russian/Chinese conspiracy to destroy Japanese sovereignty. https://archive.org/details/GODZILLAVS.KINGGHIDORAH1991JapaneseVersionHD quote:"The Equal Environmentalists of Earth?" - around 51 minutes in, The Futurians who go back in time are not associated with the future U.N. (the "Earth Union"). They are not a consortium of America/Russia/China. Emmi is not Chinese. This is a lie that they tell the Japanese characters they encounter in order to assure them of their good intentions. The reason they go back in time to destroy Japan is because, they believe, in the future, Japan will literally be "buying up whole continents. South America, Africa." They are an anti-imperialist, environmental terrorist group. quote:"King Ghidorah and Godzilla fought each other?" - around 1 hour and 26 minutes: Just like how in the "present day," the characters are completely unaware of changes as they have been made to the timeline, the E.U. ambassador in this scene has no idea that KG and G even fought each other - though he apparently knows it exists. He also knows that, yes, in the 23rd century, just like the EEE terrorists said, Japan was destroyed. (I was wrong that it wasn't by "a monster," but notice the correlation the character draws between this and "years of vain prosperity." It's also just "a monster." Is it Godzilla? Ghidorah? Something worse?) To make matters even more complicated, this is only the second time this scene is shown, albeit with the characters actually revealed. It is also the first scene in the movie, upon which all these time travel shenanigans are predicated. Again, the film is very confusing, to the extent that it's only really possible to interpret it effectively if we go full Primer-logic with the timeline: Merely engaging in time travel at all has irrevocably destroyed one's situation within any stable "line," or even sense of continuity of the self. Matters are made worse because the characters in the film are either constantly lying, or really stupid. For instance, the author character who Emmy is talking to in the first scene I excerpted is told that the EEE conspired to destroy Japan before it became a superpower of economic imperialism; but then when she mentions, completely unrelated, that the U.S., Soviet Union, and China are no longer superpowers by the 23rd century, he jumps to the conclusion that "they" are the one's conspiring to destroy Japan's future, continuing to conflate (as most fans do) the "grass-roots" terrorist group that is actually depicted in the film with the Earth Union. Instead of clarifying, Emmy just looks at him kind of pitiably and nods. She just keeps lying, it's easier. But the key function of all this confusion is that we as spectators, at any given time, have absolutely no idea what the future actually entails, just as the characters present as with constantly conflicting information about what has happened, what happens, and what's going to happen.
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May 3, 2019 22:42
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K. Waste posted:But the key function of all this confusion is that we as spectators, at any given time, have absolutely no idea what the future actually entails, just as the characters present as with constantly conflicting information about what has happened, what happens, and what's going to happen. The characters don't even know what's going on in their own history either. They're constantly confused by the fact that there are two Godzillas to begin with, and that their time travel changed NOTHING besides bringing Ghidorah into existence. Godzilla still awoke in 1984 and still rampaged in 1989 and was still slumbering in the ocean when they thought he was just a tiny dinosaur. The future people hosed up royal because they didn't understand their own history
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May 3, 2019 23:58
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Burkion posted:The characters don't even know what's going on in their own history either. I mean, given that these are presumably privileged nerds who banded together on alternate future twitter or something the fact that they're complete idiots makes perfect sense.
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May 4, 2019 00:31
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wdarkk posted:I mean, given that these are presumably privileged nerds who banded together on alternate future twitter or something the fact that they're complete idiots makes perfect sense. Exactly. Nelson and his whole crew basically destroy the space-time continuum because they heard from their dads that "Japan's gonna own us all one day." All of the E.E.E. dress like psychotic yuppies. This is not a coincidence. Burkion posted:The characters don't even know what's going on in their own history either. Well, remember, in the symbolic order of the three films, it is the same Godzilla. In '84 the characters do not refer to it as "a" or a "second" Godzilla. Nobody understands it that way. When Godzilla is facing down the veteran billionaire guy, we get an explicit shot-reverse-shot construction in which he remembers Godzilla as Godzillasaurus and Godzilla remembers him as the guy who just kind of stood there while I bled out, but was dressed a lot like those dudes who loving killed me. It is the same character. Godzilla is not a single discrete organism in the first three films of the Heisei. It is a unique force that is predetermined to exist, and also keep getting stronger while neoliberal bureaucrats jockey for economic hegemony.
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May 4, 2019 00:43
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Roland Jones posted:Oh wow, one of the latest TV spots has what seems like a really big spoiler if you watch closely. I'm kind of amazed they put that in a commercial. Yeah it's super lame. Not that I'm one to talk, I read the plot months ago. But jeez. Don't dump major surprises into a trailer.
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May 5, 2019 07:48
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Yes the 1991 characters think the Heisei series Godzilla is the same beast as the 1954 original Godzilla. Spiritually, this is true, there is only one universal Goji logos. However, biologically speaking, the Godzilla in 1954 was turned into a skeleton by the Oxygen Destroyer. This is confusing because the Godzillasaurus is also created in 1954. You'd think that he was created in 54 and immediately went on the rampage you see in Gojira. But he is from Lagos island, whereas the original was from Odo and was worshipped by natives for an unknown period of time. So the original lived and died, then directly after the Lagos Godzilla was created. This is literally a second Godzilla, but also a reincarnation of the first. Just like how Godzilla Jr becomes the new Godzilla at the end of the series. Neither the Futurians nor the contemporary Japanese understand this, however. So when the Lagos Godzilla is born in the 70s he still goes on to live through the events of the previous two films, except bigger I guess. I don't know what Ghidorah did for those 30 years.
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May 5, 2019 09:37
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Mantis42 posted:Yes the 1991 characters think the Heisei series Godzilla is the same beast as the 1954 original Godzilla. Spiritually, this is true, there is only one universal Goji logos. However, biologically speaking, the Godzilla in 1954 was turned into a skeleton by the Oxygen Destroyer. Alternative theory: Godzillasaurus became Godzilla, and swam to Odo Island. More compelling theory: The writers are making things up as they go along. There is no established book of canon that they are following. There was never a material, tactile logic to the movies. Over the course of three films some thirty years after the original, they effectively retcon the fact that Godzilla was completely destroyed by the Oxygen Destroyer, and there is no actually consistent way to verify that the events of these films follow exactly from the ones as they are shown in Gojira, because while the former film is referenced, it is virtually never acknowledged in terms of specific details - the events around Odo Island being one example. This would be done again with the millennium films, the most obvious example being Godzilla x Mechagodzilla. Fandom gets hung-up on the apparent continuity of the franchise and Wikipedia plot synopses, but in reality these are only a series of loosely connected films. They have never had a consistent canon. There is no show bible. Fans made it up. Consequently, this is how you get into situations where for literally decades GvsKG is interpreted as a far-right film about how America, Russia, and China wanna destroy Japan - when in reality the actual film has nothing to do with that. Similarly, there has to be a "biologically speaking" different Godzilla, because the first one was destroyed, and Godzillasaurus doesn't come from the same island. The films themselves do not in any way support this interpretation, either in terms of what is specifically conveyed to us narratively or just in general how we should interpret the 'logic' of this information in the context of a symbolic order totally divorced from any empirical reality, "biologically speaking" or otherwise. Don't get me wrong, GvsKG is still hella confusing. Again, the only way to explain its plot is Primer poo poo. Which is to say, it is confusing enough without us having to introduce more problematizing elements, like suddenly declaring there is a second Godzilla, when, in the film, we are only ever told and shown that there is one Godzilla.
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May 5, 2019 13:20
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Don't be ridiculous. The Godzilla Heisei saga is not some slapped together western media product, it's an intricately connected epic where all the pieces matter. =) There MUST be two Godzillas, because the Oxygen Destroyer used against the 54 Godzilla also created the kaiju Destroyah. How could this happen if the Futurians delayed the creation of Godzilla until the 1970s? Clearly the Odos Godzilla is different, and your rambling about continuity hides the fact that you misunderstood the text.
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May 5, 2019 17:22
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All this is, in a nutshell, why I loving hate time travel 
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May 5, 2019 21:15
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K buddy, you're flat wrong on this one. Heisei Godzilla is not the same as 54 Godzilla. Yes, going by Return of Godzilla and ONLY Return of Godzilla, they theorize that it could be the same Godzilla, but the later movies show that this is wrong. In the Heisei continuity, the original Godzilla was destroyed by the Oxygen Destroyer, and the other one always ended up at 80 meters before surfacing in the 80s. The only thing you have to wonder is if the Time Travelers were always responsible for Godzilla being put into the ocean, and thus why he was only revived in the 70s when the nuclear sub crashed, or if things just worked out otherwise. The way the movie goes, it's easiest to assume that the Time Travelers affected nothing beyond creating Ghidorah- if they even changed that much. There's a very real chance that time cannot change at all, and that all of this happened and was meant to happen. See the opening of the film, VS where it appears later, as you mentioned. Regardless, the Godzillasaurus became a second Godzilla and in the 70s was hit with a nuclear sub and grew even larger than the first. We know for a fact that this is the intended order of things because Godzilla is not a singular creature in the Heisei continuity- Junior exists and assumes his mantle in the end- nor was he in the Showa Era, where we similarly had three different Godzillas. The original's death was confirmed in Destroyah, and as any nerd with an eye for trivia knows, the original version of that movie was meant to be Godzilla VS Ghost Godzilla. Where Heisei Godzilla was going to throw down with the vengeful spirit of the original Godzilla. There were always three. While some of the plots are pure bullshit, they're not hard to piece together. Later films that DO change with the oxygen destroyer did, or if it was used at all, call it out immediately. Megagirus shows their Godzilla existing from 54, through the 60s and 70s, in the present day. Kiryu shows that the Oxygen Destroyer didn't completely destroy Godzilla, only his flesh and organs. GMK shows that it DID completely destroy him, but that doesn't matter when supernatural forces bring you back to life. Final Wars is a grey area- chances are there was no oxygen destroyer in his time line but we don't know that for sure.
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May 5, 2019 23:03
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Who gives a poo poo. Heisei gave us this so it will forever be the best series of films. Historical fact is on my side. Argue if you must but it changes nothing. NOTHING!
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May 5, 2019 23:07
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Jimbot posted:Who gives a poo poo. Heisei gave us this so it will forever be the best series of films. Historical fact is on my side. Argue if you must but it changes nothing. NOTHING! Godzilla secretly has one of the best Terminator sequels.
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May 5, 2019 23:51
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In conclusion, Godzilla is a kaiju of contrasts.
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May 6, 2019 00:43
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I'd like everyone to know that my playlist cycled up BOC's Godzilla while I was catching up on the thread.
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May 6, 2019 01:58
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What's the best Godzilla movie for camp and is it GvsKG or Final Wars? I feel like I enjoy Final Wars more, but time travel almost always adds to the zany factor of fiction.
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May 6, 2019 03:35
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wdarkk posted:What's the best Godzilla movie for camp and is it GvsKG or Final Wars? I feel like I enjoy Final Wars more, but time travel almost always adds to the zany factor of fiction. Vs. MechaGodzilla (the 1974 one) has to rank up there in sheer absurdity. Plus the score is killer.
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May 6, 2019 03:49
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Timby posted:Vs. MechaGodzilla (the 1974 one) has to rank up there in sheer absurdity. Plus the score is killer. Oh yeah, that's a good contender too. Maybe it's all the James Bond movies I watched, but all the gunfights with the disguised aliens seems about in the middle of the camp<--->seriousness divide.
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May 6, 2019 03:57
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As a confirmed Godzilla vs Gigan apologist, I'd recommend that. The Smog Monster and Megalon are great too.
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May 6, 2019 03:57
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wdarkk posted:Oh yeah, that's a good contender too. Maybe it's all the James Bond movies I watched, but all the gunfights with the disguised aliens seems about in the middle of the camp<--->seriousness divide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iXGMp7ZkF0 It's funny you mention Bond movies, because this has a serious John Barry vibe to it.
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May 6, 2019 04:06
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Jimbot posted:Who gives a poo poo. Heisei gave us this so it will forever be the best series of films. Historical fact is on my side. Argue if you must but it changes nothing. NOTHING! I almost expected Running in the 90's to kick in once he took off And why'd he take a car if he can outrun them?
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May 6, 2019 15:03
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I almost feel bad for them putting that poo poo in trying to make it big with their terminator rip off.
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May 6, 2019 15:08
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wdarkk posted:What's the best Godzilla movie for camp and is it GvsKG or Final Wars? I feel like I enjoy Final Wars more, but time travel almost always adds to the zany factor of fiction. As others have said, it's either Megalon or Mechagodzilla. I love both dearly.
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May 6, 2019 19:02
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Somebody got the art book already and it's glorious.   Sorta spoilery:  Really spoilery: 
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May 6, 2019 21:34
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Interesting, Ghidorah seems to have a very eastern Dragon look to him in that concept art. That's a neat direction to go, though it seems that didn't make it to the final cut. Both things you spoiled have been in trailers already.
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May 6, 2019 21:56
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I did it just in case we have no trailer people in here.  As for Ghidorah, I would actually say his heads look more like an Asian dragon in the IMAX footage than they do in that concept art. The heads in that picture have a bulkier jaw structure whereas the movie ones taper like a proper Lung.
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May 6, 2019 22:02
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One neat thing the art shows Rodan teaming up with Godzilla to fight Ghidorah
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May 7, 2019 00:16
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Burkion posted:One neat thing the art shows Just like the classics (sniff!)
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May 7, 2019 02:11
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Here's a trailer with a few new shots plus an intro from Millie. https://www.bilibili.com/video/av51689165/ The visuals here are incredible.
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May 7, 2019 16:40
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