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DatonKallandor posted:You can of course just make every save-breaking mod update a new workshop entry. You could yeah though that's arguably less convenient than a single forum thread with multiple versions in it. It is what Stellaris does for similar compatibility reasons though.
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May 3, 2019 14:49
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OwlFancier posted:single forum thread with multiple versions in it Most threads just have the one, most recent version in them though -- you just don't update your mods while you're in the middle of a save unless you're certain it won't break. v  v
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May 3, 2019 17:32
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The sane choice is making Starsector *not* use the Workshop since it is structurally, mechanically, and conceptually not compatible with it... Let alone all its other issues.
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May 4, 2019 03:56
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I mean rimworld has already solved this entire problem: On the dev side, you release the new RC as an opt in beta for a week or two, this both allows you to find gamebreaking bugs, and lets modders update their mods to work for the new version. Also leaving the previous version as an opt in beta afterwards. On the modder side, once a new version is released as a beta, you upload your new version of the mod as a new file, leaving the old version of the mod in limbo in case people don't wanna update to the new game version yet.
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May 4, 2019 04:40
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Rimworld also has specifc versions existing as tags, so you can filter all your mod searches with the 1.0 tag and all older versions won't show up at all. This is something I really wish Paradox did because a huge percentage of their workshop mods are out of date but the only way to tell is to look at when the mod was uploaded.
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May 4, 2019 05:33
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MesoTroniK posted:The sane choice is making Starsector *not* use the Workshop since it is structurally, mechanically, and conceptually not compatible with it... Let alone all its other issues. Except it clearly isn't. It's less convienent than it would be if mod updates didn't break saves as often, but it's hardly incompatible. It's also not like having Workshop support stops you from also having Nexus support, or just straight up dropping mods in the folder like we're doing right now - all of these modes live side by side.
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May 4, 2019 12:21
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So far I've declined to say anything about this, but it seems like an awful lot of hullabaloo over a feature that is basically just checking off a box on the features list. Not to put too fine a point on it but my impression is that the workshop would be at best marginally more convenient for the end user while being a sizeable headache for everyone else involved - i.e the modders and Alex. It's easy to say that these problems could be trivially solved when you're not the one solving them. Also you guys seem to be almost entirely ignoring all the other problems in favor of the auto-updates issue.
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May 4, 2019 22:07
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I’ve never made a mod, and I still hate it when games use the Steam Workshop.
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May 4, 2019 22:14
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I like it when workshop based modders throw tantrums and delete all their poo poo and now it's deleted for you too.
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May 4, 2019 22:14
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If you hate Steam Workshop, don't use it. Ain't rocket science.
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May 4, 2019 22:26
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I saw this mod in the dev's Twitter. It allows your ships to gain XP as well.  
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May 5, 2019 00:57
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MShadowy posted:Not to put too fine a point on it but my impression is that the workshop would be at best marginally more convenient for the end user while being a sizeable headache for everyone else involved - i.e the modders and Alex. It's easy to say that these problems could be trivially solved when you're not the one solving them. It's wildly more convenient as an end user to press a button on Steam and have mods install themselves and keep themselves updated than it is to dig through disorganized forums or Nexus sites that still work the same way they did twenty years ago. In games with decent workshop support, it's also usually more convenient as a modder. I'm not sure what the point of arguing about it is, though. I'm pretty sure Alex is capable of figuring out if it's feasible and deciding whether or not he thinks its worth implementing. If he goes for it, modders that hate the workshop for whatever reason can always host their poo poo elsewhere like they do with tons of other games.
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May 5, 2019 01:30
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Reading is Hard apparently, do I need to go quote myself and what I said initially?
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May 5, 2019 02:37
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No. In fact, you can stop posting indefinitely. Please.
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May 5, 2019 08:35
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Platystemon posted:I’ve never made a mod, and I still hate it when games use the Steam Workshop. Same, it's pretty bad.
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May 5, 2019 09:32
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Get this game on steam because it has to come to one platform eventually and every other platform is insufferable.
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May 5, 2019 09:50
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Twist: Starsector to become an Epic store exclusive.
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May 5, 2019 13:22
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MesoTroniK posted:Reading is Hard apparently, do I need to go quote myself and what I said initially? No thanks. I just happen to disagree that any of the things you mentioned are likely to be significant issues. People disagree about things on the internet, sometimes.
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May 5, 2019 13:23
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Platystemon posted:I’ve never made a mod, and I still hate it when games use the Steam Workshop. What does this mean? What don't you like?
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May 5, 2019 13:38
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Personally, I'm waiting for the anime ship deco mods. Or Starsector ship girls.
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May 5, 2019 14:24
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 I'm not sure I see how the Workshop would be less convenient for your everyday player in the slightest. Putting this game on Steam is going to introduce a lot of people who aren't actually familiar with modding.Take a step back and look at this from the perspective of your average consumer -- they aren't going to immediately trot off to the Starsector forums or the Nexus to see if this has mods. This is just another game to mess around with. Having the Workshop right in front of you, on the other hand, gives you an active prompt to look at the mods there. That's a lot more exposure than a separate website with a separate utility and manual downloads and manual updates and... yeah. Less complexity and barriers to entry = better on the customer side. Hands down. May not be the same case on the modder side, but the player experience is paramount in these kinds of decisions. Not everyone has the same level of interest that we do in the nitty-gritty. Edit: Autism Sneaks posted:No. In fact, you can stop posting indefinitely. Please. Kraven Moorhed fucked around with this message at 16:14 on May 5, 2019 |
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May 5, 2019 16:11
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Yeah, saying "Steam Workshop is bad, actually" is some next-level grog poo poo and I'm someone who still likes to install games using .exe files sometimes.
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May 5, 2019 17:34
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It's fine for games that work well with it but it definitely has problems with any game that is reliant on strict version control to work. Mostly the benefit, I think, is volume. If you're installing piles of poo poo where versioning generally doesn't matter like for cities skylines it's quite handy, or Rimworld. But for say, Fallout 4 I would rather use nexus and have concrete versions for everything. Starsector takes minimal effort to set up so it's not really saving much time. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 5, 2019 |
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May 5, 2019 17:43
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Kraven Moorhed posted:Less complexity and barriers to entry = better on the customer side. Hands down. May not be the same case on the modder side, but the player experience is paramount in these kinds of decisions. Not everyone has the same level of interest that we do in the nitty-gritty. As someone who has made a few reasonably popular mods for other games, my experience is that it's also much easier as a modder when the integration is halfway decent. OwlFancier posted:It's fine for games that work well with it but it definitely has problems with any game that is reliant on strict version control to work. In all of the games where I've run into issues with this, there are easy ways to prevent Steam from updating mods that you don't want updated, usually by moving them to another folder.
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May 5, 2019 18:03
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Steam is pretty good in my opinion as a platform, I mean your only other option for mass distribution is Epic right? And that one is still developing.
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May 5, 2019 19:43
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Literally the only thing Star Sector needs for workshop 'integration' is for the launcher to recognize the steam folder as a valid path for mods. That's it.
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May 5, 2019 19:48
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Wallet posted:In all of the games where I've run into issues with this, there are easy ways to prevent Steam from updating mods that you don't want updated, usually by moving them to another folder. That seems like it's suddenly become less convenient than just downloading the version you want, though. Especially as steam does not store mods on file in easily understandable formats, just numerical strings last I checked.
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May 5, 2019 19:58
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^^It's about the same level of effort, honestly. Steam Workshop integration would probably be fine for SS, it wouldn't even really require that much effort on the part of the modders as plenty of games maintain workshop versions but still handle primary installation and tech support through offsite forums (mount and blade springs to mind, which has many of the same modding pitfalls as Starsector.) A bunch of users would probably miss the big text about manual installations or movement of files on the workshop page but eh, that's on the user at that point. That said, as far as I remember we have no idea how Starsector is actually going to see release so this whole conversation might wind up a moot point.
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May 5, 2019 20:03
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Really I think my preferred starsector option would be nexus. Hard version management while retaining one click install.
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May 5, 2019 20:06
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Autism Sneaks posted:No. In fact, you can stop posting indefinitely. Please. Kraven Moorhed posted:Also this. Love it when when posters shout at modders to leave, in a discussion about mods. Good poo poo thread.
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May 5, 2019 23:31
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Gobblecoque posted:Love it when when posters shout at modders to leave, in a discussion about mods. Good poo poo thread. I, for one? Hate it!
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May 5, 2019 23:35
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Heh, well don't worry I am not going anywhere. I just find it a bit disheartening that so many of the bullet points were virtually ignored by most in favor of the auto-updates one which admittedly is the worst and most negatively impactful.
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May 6, 2019 00:51
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Edit: Never mind. Pretty sure another post won't actually move the needle if there's this big of a disconnect in perspectives -- not worth stirring things up.
Kraven Moorhed fucked around with this message at 03:13 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 03:00
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MesoTroniK posted:Heh, well don't worry I am not going anywhere. It wasnt ignored. The problem with mods breaking saves on updates is either A: an issue with modders. Or B: an issue with the game. We know this is mostly an issue with the game much more so than the modders fault and is actually something I would seriously hope Alex looks into to see if it can be fixed. It would be a huge benefit to the game and modding community as a whole. People aren't trying to blow you off or dismiss you. We all know your a hell of a good modder and have put a lot into your projects which gives you a pretty solid insight on how the engine is working. It doesn't change the fact that many of us want one solid solution that makes updating less time consuming. Edit: holy poo poo vortex is just awful. I loaded it up when I got home to see what mods were on nexus and the starsector mods stuff there doesn't move. Vortex needs a complete overhaul to even be reasonably user friendly at a base level. grimcreaper fucked around with this message at 07:17 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 06:32
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Just wanted to say Factorio has a good solution for this from a UX perspective, embedding user mod version management inside the game itself. I don't know how much of a pain it is for modders to work in that paradigm however.
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May 6, 2019 07:59
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the only mod update i care about is blackrock driveyards when... when....
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May 6, 2019 10:17
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I've made mods for a lot of games (including Starsector) and published on the workshop a lot and here's my take: it's a good thing and I've had no issues with versioning. Most games that implement it plan for some version distinction/detection. Alex would do the same for Starsector if he decided to implement it. The workshop hate is frankly super loving weird. If implemented correctly it's fine.
Garfu fucked around with this message at 16:47 on May 6, 2019 |
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May 6, 2019 16:44
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workshop sucks steam sucks if you want my mod you can send me a crisp $5 in the post and i'll mail you back a box of floppy disks like god intended
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May 6, 2019 19:18
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The Good Professor posted:workshop sucks steam sucks if you want my mod you can send me a crisp $5 in the post and i'll mail you back a box of floppy disks like god intended But.. what if the mod I want from you is one of those skyrim massive mod additions that's like 30 gigs? Or how about Ark? Need like 100gigs of mods for Ark. How many thousands of floppies do you need and do you also send a free copy of Dont Copy that Floppy with them?
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May 6, 2019 20:16
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I feel like this conversation has been had for so many games over so long a period that I can't help but dredge up old memories of the, like, Minecraft modding debacles, and the CovertJaguars, the Flowerchilds, things from the Elder Scrolls crowd like Arthmoor's GateGate, and it begins to sour my initially hopeful prospects for how modding of Starsector will probably get a massive influx of content creators once a Steam release is made. Like yeah, the drama is fun to look at! That's a valid point to make! But it also grinds down your soul a good bit and inevitably the distaste turns to disgust, I don't want that to happen with this game. Game's too good and nice and fun to let it get ruined by latent jackassery and mind goblins!
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May 9, 2019 21:16
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